The President's Address to a joint session of Congress 9/9/09 - Page 8

And anyone who thinks you can run health care system for a nation of 300 million on a charity basis is a fool. If you could, you'd do so. I don't hear a lot of people complaining about how high taxes keep them from giving until it hurts (you can always do that, it just happens sooner if you're not well off), I hear a lot of "I got mine, so fuck you."

I'd like to see something that proves me wrong. Show me that charitable donations after Bush's tax cuts increased by, say, 90% of the total of those cuts. Then, if it happened, show me that it was enough to produce adequate results.

By the way, are these stupid pictures of nameless things supposed to be clever commentary? An icing house? What the hell is this?

He's one of those frauds who tries to pretend chiropractic cures allergies or shifts your chi around or can help you stop smoking, right?

I think it's supposed to be a glass house? It's not very clever and doesn't actually make contextual sense.

Isn't it a green box?

Thank you.

I thought it was a green box but I guess that wouldn't make sense coming from Captain Responsibility.

ETA guess I was right. Little late tho

Green Box? Does it mean something? Anything at all?

Christ, do people still think rep jokes are amusing?

Rep jokes? Oh, those green boxes.

Ha.

Well, we can't tag things anymore....

Reps are doing something over and over again.

Tags go on dead people's toes.

And here I thought the picture was some sort of representation of Pandora's Box.

If Tzu does not want to pay for insurance all power to him. It's a personal choice that is working out for him so far. All power to that!

Plus, there are much bigger things to talk about..like how Roger Corman is getting an Oscar!

That's not the problem. Healthy or ill, dead or alive, he matters not. The problem is his willingness to leave others in the lurch because to do otherwise is an inconvenience to him while at the same time expecting others for whom he has no consideration to take his inconvenience into account. Why should we care about his inconvenience when he places it above the lives of others?

It's like arguing in favour of the Iraq war on the grounds that the soldiers were in the neighbourhood and needed something to do, and placing a higher priority on that than the issues of sovereignty, loss of life, causing a state to fail, etc.

The health care system ain't a fucking farmers market, you goddamn twit. And what the fuck is 'responsible' about not being prepared for the future and having a contingency plan set up in case the worst case scenario happens?

But maybe you're right. Maybe only leftists have the capability to look towards the future and see a problem that needs fixing, unlike the hedonists of the current right.

"Tell you what, you stop this internal bleeding, I'll come over and wash your car for a year. How's that sound?"

"Hmm, I don't know, it's a 2009 Porsche...."

"Okay, look, I'm getting light-headed, I'll paint your house."

I can already imagine all the doctors rolling their eyes when they have to attend to this guy ... "No, not him again"

So basically Tzu's approach to healthcare is Chris Rock's character ordering some ribs in I'm Gonna Git You Sucka?

"My cups cost more than 15 cents!"
"Fuck the cup, pour it in my hand for a dime!"

Catastrophic health insurance does tend to be a fundamental aspect of all of these high deductible MSA plans.

I did actually hear a real life story that was a lot like this. A woman got cancer and was immediately canceled by her insurance for a pre-existing she never had. To get treatment before her imminent death she actually did barter with an oncologist to do car repairs in exchange for treatment. This is how she kept herself alive while undergoing chemotherapy and suing the insurer to get her coverage reinstated. They ultimately were forced to reinstate her but if she hadn't had a sympathetic oncologist she would be dead today because of their disgusting practices.

Tsudonym, the reason insurance companies were created in the first place was to create a big risk pool so that accidents or illnesses wouldn't wipe you out financially. You might think you're all fine and well without insurance and that you'll be able to barter away the hundreds of thousands of dollars you would incur if you ever got in an accident or got sick, but so far, if you look at the bankruptcy statistics of people who were insured when their health suffered, I think you've got it all wrong. Also, you may not realize it but the majority of hospitals are forcing uninsured patients to sign credit agreements with big banks in order to be admitted, so not only would you be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, it would be at the steep, arbitrary interest rates of the big banks.

Also, if you really believe what you're typing, I hope you will write a letter to the social security administration now telling them you want to opt out of social security and medicare when you reach 65.

For the last fucking time, it was my elbow.

and I don't actually remember how much it cost.

What's this babbling about "leftists"? No one talks about car insurance as a Communist plot like this, do they?

Maybe this guy will run into someone like him. "Compromise my personal situation for your benefit? Fuck you. Mortgage your house again if you can't raise the cash."

I would love to opt out of the Social Security program.

+ 1.

And some people have the nerve to claim the things I am saying are stupid.

I would opt the fuck right out of Social Security right now and forevermore if I were allowed to.

Again we come round to compulsory theft at the hand of the government for a Ponzi scheme. I dare you to claim that Social Security is anything but the same scheme Bernie Madoff was running.

But waiting until I have paid all that money in and then opting not to get some of it back? Unadulterated gibberish.

Somewhere between 2030 and 2045 if I am eligible for $1000 in monthly benefits the system will only have enough money to pay out $787. Christ almighty, the SSA even flat out tells you this themselves in their quarterly mailers. Where is the other money that I am guaranteed? Who in their right minds thinks that a government run health care plan isn't going to collapse just the same except a whole hell of a lot faster?

The rest of the western world, I’d imagine.

You all say that now, but when you're older and maybe your life hasn't gone the way you'd hoped, you'll all be thanking God (and the Democrats) for Social Security.

Also, Tzudonym, if Reagan didn't start the vile practice of stealing from social security to pad the national debt while simultaneously lowering the cap, it wouldn't be having any problems.

Also, can you find any examples of nationalized healthcare collapsing in the many countries where it's thriving?

ETA: That statement proves to me that you're not serious about this argument, Tzu.

Before Social Security, poverty rates among the elderly in this country exceeded 50%, my question to you is should that have been addressed at all?

Again we come to a libertarian who doesn't understand that he doesn't get to redefine words however he likes. If he can, I can. Taxation isn't theft, it's sex! So pony up, you prude.

Well, makes as much sense, don't it?

Do not reply to TzuDohNihm. He's a crazy person.

How do you barter your way into a liver transplant? You do know you don't even get in the pool without insurance (or I guess a huge bank account), right?

I don’t mind people having problems with Social Security, I mind people who are all gung-ho about opting out without actually thinking about the serious problem it seeks to address. If there’s a better, more realistic solution for dealing with the elderly poor, great, but if all you’ve got is calling Social Security theft, you’re just being childish.

Yes.

I know this is addressed to Tzu’s untenable position, but most proponents of high deductibles and health savings accounts are also for a shift towards catastrophic health insurance, which—I imagine—would cover just that.

I'm not replying to him, I'm pointing and laughing at the things he says.

Pot, this is kettle...

You can very, very easily (and safely) make more in the market than social security makes for you.

You can also very, very easily lose every last bit you invest.

Thriving? If you call rationing and interminable waits thriving then there isn't much left to say is there? Those are signs of collapse via creeping decay.

Medicare by Obama's own admission is in a state of being unsustainable yet we are to believe that a nearly identical program for a vastly larger pool of insureds will sustain itself without deficit spending and tax increases?

hehe

I like the way he doesn't grasp that his claims are fearmongering nonsense: "They have interminable wait times and rationed care. They're doomed!"

Then someone comes along and says: "No, the wait times are no worse than ours, and it's us who rations care as per quarterly expectations, determined by insurers. These nations are thriving."

"You call interminable wait times and rationed care 'thriving'!?"



Chowderhead.

Hence me using the bold feature for the word "safely."

I read a study last year that showed that if youre under 30 years old, Social Security is set to give you about a 1.25% return on your investment by the time you turn 65.

A 10 year Treasury note, which is 100% guaranteed by the government, is currently paying 3.35%. Once rates begin to increase next year, youll probably see the 10 year paying around 4.5%.

Its not rocket science.

ETA according to this nifty website which goes off of Social Security's actuarial tables, going of the 2008 income of my wife and I, we are projected to get a rate of return of -.51% if our income remains level. God forbid it increases.

But yeah, Im the crazy one...

Okay, well, I don't consider buying a guaranteed treasury bond being "in the market".

Well, if youre feeling saucey theres some AAA rated government bonds that are yielding as much as 5.2% for the same time frame.

I told my accountant to take any retirement funds I have out of the market and into a money market account because--present company and the honest financial services industry professionals excepted--I don't want to contribute one dime to those @$$es. If you're that confident in the market, bless.

ETA: Treasuries, as I argued with you in the past, is where the smart money went two years ago, but I still wouldn't say guaranteed safe because of the US/China situation.

You didn't read my post, did you? Also, what's Rush/Beck/Hannity/O'Reilly's excuse for the VA, a universal public program? Is that "deteriorating"?

Also, the private market has rationing and indeterminate waits, but that's just another example of righties like you cherry-picking only those fragments that fit in with your fantasies about a dun grey socialist state.