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The President's Address to a joint session of Congress 9/9/09 - Page 10

post #451 of 489
9/12/09 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Sure, sounds like a lot of money, but when people who own small businesses have to give away half their income, what do you think will happen?
Half their income? Where is that stated?
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post #452 of 489
9/12/09 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Half their income? Where is that stated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
NOR SHOULD I. If you are making more than a million dollars a year, lets tax you at 50 %. Then you still have 500 000 dollars, which is fifty times more than I make in a year and more than enough money for any sane/non greedy person.
Princess Kate's genius tax plan.
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post #453 of 489
9/12/09 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Over taxation will be disastrous for this country.
Yeah, because Europe and Canada are hanging on by a thread right now, huh?

I just read that the entire Philly Free Library system is in danger of closing because the PA legislature cannot get its act together and pass necessary funding. As such, I'm a hair pissed off right now, and would very much like to tell you that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. The underfunding of our educational and health needs is going to fuck us over a lot faster than being made to pay in to the public good ever could.
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post #454 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
Yeah, because Europe and Canada are hanging on by a thread right now, huh?

I just read that the entire Philly Free Library system is in danger of closing because the PA legislature cannot get its act together and pass necessary funding. As such, I'm a hair pissed off right now, and would very much like to tell you that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. The underfunding of our educational and health needs is going to fuck us over a lot faster than being made to pay in to the public good ever could.
That is sad, libraries are very important to the community. Found an interesting article on the budgetary problems in Philadelphia.

http://www.seventy.org/Resources_Phi...t_FAQ.aspx#pt3
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post #455 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:24pm
Well, looky there! An anti-tax group run by a bunch of businessmen who are just hunky dory with screwing city employees and union members out of their well-being and promised financial security! How novel! How utterly shocking! How "interesting," indeed!

Check the Executive Committee. Nonpartisan, my bleeding heart, bookish ass.

I didn't mean to inspire a derail. I saw a connection, I pointed to it. Let's get our eye back on the ball.
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post #456 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
I'm assuming you make less than $10,000 a year based on your statement. If that is true, then frankly, you aren't making shit, and you definitely aren't paying much in the way of taxes.
Ah so human life has no intrinsic value whatsoever, eh? It's all about how much the make and how much in taxes you pay? That's what should determine whether or not you get healthcare?
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post #457 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Ah so human life has no intrinsic value whatsoever, eh? It's all about how much the make and how much in taxes you pay?
I never said human life has no instrinsic value. You're making a huge leap there. And I never said that health care doesn't need an overhaul in the US. I'd love to cut out the corruption and waste. How about this. If Obama and his gang can clean up Medicare, Soc Security, and the VA system, bring them all from the brink of bankruptcy and show how it can be done without rationing of care, or adding "one dime" of taxpayer money, then they can go for a government health care option.
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post #458 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:45pm
Do not respond to Sideway. He thinks Obama is starting a secret army. Talking to crazy people will do you no good.

ETA: And just because some people seem to forget, TzuDohNihm is also a crazy person. He thinks we should abolish taxes, and taxation is "theft at gunpoint." Talking to sane people with differing opinions can be fun and interesting and intellectually beneficial. You gain nothing by talking to these two.
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post #459 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:48pm
Right. That was him, wasn't it?
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post #460 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:50pm
Yeah. Check out his syncophantic defenses of abject retardation in the "Glenn Beck Is A Dog-Raping Terrorist Fuck" thread.
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post #461 of 489
9/12/09 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
Right. That was him, wasn't it?
I have a message board memory that goes about five minutes into the past, but he just said that somewhere. I'm pretty sure he said it over and over and over again.
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post #462 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Bateman View Post
Do not respond to Sideway. He thinks Obama is starting a secret army. Talking to crazy people will do you no good.

ETA: And just because some people seem to forget, TzuDohNihm is also a crazy person. He thinks we should abolish taxes, and taxation is "theft at gunpoint." Talking to sane people with differing opinions can be fun and interesting and intellectually beneficial. You gain nothing by talking to these two.
Ah, the old ad hominem attack. We're CRAZY people because we disagree with you. As far as "talking to sane people with differing opinions being fun and interesting and intellectually beneficial: I've looked at your past posts and you are the one with nothing really to add.

Let's see what interesting and intellectually stimulating points you have had to make:

You said taxation is theft at gunpoint. You're a big pile of crazy and I don't know why everyone doesn't just ignore you.

Do not reply to TzuDohNihm. He's a crazy person.

Do not respond to Sideway. He thinks Obama is starting a secret army. Talking to crazy people will do you no good.

When you start calling people crazy, you lose your credibility.
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post #463 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:40pm
^ I note that you do not dispute his points, you simply label them ad hominin attacks and say he doesn't make any valid points.

Just so you know, people who seriously believe that Obama is creating a Secret army (and just stop right there and consider the absurdity of the words "Secret ARMY") is in fact crazy. It's on par with saying the government made a deal with the Aliens to build a secret underground base in new Mexico where they mutilate cattle and stick probes up people's asses.

And people who think that taxation is theft at gunpoint are narcissistic, selfish, dumb and would fail a voight comp test.
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post #464 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
If Obama and his gang can clean up Medicare, Soc Security, and the VA system, bring them all from the brink of bankruptcy and show how it can be done without rationing of care, or adding "one dime" of taxpayer money, then they can go for a government health care option.
Interesting, the only rational solutions to either of those problems, that is, our healthcare costs or Social Security, requires both rationing and increased revenue. Then again, wanting everything for nothing is the American way.

I’m surprised you didn’t disqualify increasing the retirement age while you were at it.

I will admit, though, that Democrats drastically oversell their positions, opening them up to attacks just like this. It’s absurd for them to act as if rationing has no part in healthcare reform, or that any of this can be done without increased revenue.
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post #465 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
When you start calling people crazy, you lose your credibility.
Actually, when you say that taxation is theft at gunpoint or that Obama is raising a secret army, you're already lost all credibility.

When you raise crazy talking points that get debunked (like the above) but then you go on to repeat them as if they weren't debunked then you lose all credibility.

You also prove to be impervious to reason and debate, aka: ignorant. Frankly, this is why I don't find people such as yourselves to be worth the effort.
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post #466 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
When you start calling people crazy, you lose your credibility.
You think that Glenn Beck is a rational, sensible human being. You're crazy.
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post #467 of 489
9/12/09 at 9:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
I never said human life has no instrinsic value. You're making a huge leap there. And I never said that health care doesn't need an overhaul in the US. I'd love to cut out the corruption and waste. How about this. If Obama and his gang can clean up Medicare, Soc Security, and the VA system, bring them all from the brink of bankruptcy and show how it can be done without rationing of care, or adding "one dime" of taxpayer money, then they can go for a government health care option.
Come on, you want reform as long as you don't want to pay for it?

Also, under the current system there is LOTS of rationing going on: those examples Obama used in his speech are de facto rationing: let's deny someone coverage because all of a sudden we may have to pay out instead of passively taking their monthly premium and doing nothing.
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post #468 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
Actually, when you say that taxation is theft at gunpoint or that Obama is raising a secret army, you're already lost all credibility.

When you raise crazy talking points that get debunked (like the above) but then you go on to repeat them as if they weren't debunked then you lose all credibility.

You also prove to be impervious to reason and debate, aka: ignorant. Frankly, this is why I don't find people such as yourselves to be worth the effort.
I never wrote that taxation is theft at gunpoint. That was another poster.

So I will ignore your second point.

Your third point applies to almost everyone on this thread as we all have our own opinions.
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post #469 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
Interesting, the only rational solutions to either of those problems, that is, our healthcare costs or Social Security, requires both rationing and increased revenue. Then again, wanting everything for nothing is the American way.

I’m surprised you didn’t disqualify increasing the retirement age while you were at it.

I will admit, though, that Democrats drastically oversell their positions, opening them up to attacks just like this. It’s absurd for them to act as if rationing has no part in healthcare reform, or that any of this can be done without increased revenue.
Rationing and increased revenue are NOT the only solutions. How about cut out wasted levels of overlapping management and bureaucracy, corruption, and fraud? Why is that the left's first solution to every problem is raising taxes?
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post #470 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
You think that Glenn Beck is a rational, sensible human being. You're crazy.
Why does everyone jump on Glenn Beck as being the only nutcase out there? How about Bill Maher, Keith Olberman, Jon Stewart,Janeane Garofalo or Michael Moore?
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post #471 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Why does everyone jump on Glenn Beck as being the only nutcase out there? How about Bill Maher, Keith Olberman, Jon Stewart,Janeane Garofalo or Michael Moore?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Garofalo is a comedian, one without a forum mind you. Who cares what she thinks?

Bill Maher is an arrogant douche, but hardly a nutcase.

Olberman sucks but I'm not sure that makes him a nutcase

Michael Moore... I'll grant that he's a nutcase.

Jon Stewart? Really? Jon Stewart is incredible.
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post #472 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Why does everyone jump on Glenn Beck as being the only nutcase out there? How about Bill Maher, Keith Olberman, Jon Stewart,Janeane Garofalo or Michael Moore?
You think Jon Stewart is a nutcase on the level of Glenn Beck?

How's the weather in Oz, crazy man?
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post #473 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
You also prove to be impervious to reason and debate, aka: ignorant. Frankly, this is why I don't find people such as yourselves to be worth the effort.
Actually, I am very open-minded and I will listen to any argument. That doesn't mean that I have to AGREE with your point of view, or anyone else's. I have also not called anyone crazy, stupid, a fuckstick, or any other derogatory word, unlike the way many have referred to me on this board.
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post #474 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTSMGL View Post
You think Jon Stewart is a nutcase on the level of Glenn Beck?

How's the weather in Oz, crazy man?
No, but he's hardly the voice of unbiased reason. Entertaining at times, yes.
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post #475 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Garofalo is a comedian, one without a forum mind you. Who cares what she thinks?

Bill Maher is an arrogant douche, but hardly a nutcase.

Olberman sucks but I'm not sure that makes him a nutcase

Michael Moore... I'll grant that he's a nutcase.

Jon Stewart? Really? Jon Stewart is incredible.
Gerafalo doesn't get the comedian pass. She's been on plenty of shows spouting her political views. I remember her years ago on Michale Moore's show TV NATION. I really loved that show before Moore went off the deep end.
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post #476 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Why does everyone jump on Glenn Beck as being the only nutcase out there? How about Bill Maher, Keith Olberman, Jon Stewart,Janeane Garofalo or Michael Moore?
This kind of half-assed response deserves to be scrawled on a shitty hunk of posterboard and waved around by an overweight, screaming retiree. Again, crazy.
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post #477 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
This kind of half-assed response deserves to be scrawled on a shitty hunk of posterboard and waved around by an overweight, screaming retiree. Again, crazy.
You know, I will give you this: from a left-leaning perspective, I can see how Glenn Beck could seem like a loon.
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post #478 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:46pm
And from a mouth-breathing perspective, I can see how Bill Maher, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart, Janeane Garofalo, and Michael Moore could seem like loons.
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post #479 of 489
9/12/09 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
You know, I will give you this: from a left-leaning perspective, I can see how Glenn Beck could seem like a loon.
Left leaning perspective?
HE THINKS OBAMA IS BUILDING A SECRET ARMY.

HE "FOUND" SUBLIMINAL COMMUNIST MESSAGES ALL OVER ROCKEFELLER CENTER.

HE DECODED A DOCUMENT TO SPELL OUT "OLIGARHY" AS IF IT MADE A BIT OF SENSE AND THEN CLAIMED WE SHOULD BE AFRAID OF IT.

Is there really ANY respectable perspective from which Glenn Beck does NOT look like a loon? Can you seriously defend ANY of his ideas?
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post #480 of 489
9/12/09 at 11:01pm
"To call somebody ignorant is no insult. All of us are ignorant of most of what there is to know. I am completely ignorant of baseball, and I dare say that you are as completely ignorant of cricket. If I tell somebody who believes the world is 6,000 years old that he is ignorant, I am paying him the compliment of assuming that he is not stupid, insane or wicked." - Richard Dawkins

The same goes for people who think Glenn Beck is amazing.
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post #481 of 489
9/12/09 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walesczcak View Post
Left leaning perspective? HE THINKS OBAMA IS BUILDING A SECRET ARMY.
HE "FOUND" SUBLIMINAL COMMUNIST MESSAGES ALL OVER ROCKEFELLER CENTER.
HE DECODED A DOCUMENT TO SPELL OUT "OLIGARHY" AS IF IT MADE A BIT OF SENSE AND THEN CLAIMED WE SHOULD BE AFRAID OF IT.

Is there really ANY respectable perspective from which Glenn Beck does NOT look like a loon? Can you seriously defend ANY of these theories of his?
I'm not going to defend Glenn Beck, and I haven't seen a full picture of the mural at Rockefeller center. For some reason, you can't find it on the web. As an Art History student I can tell you that Communist art and murals were popular in the early 20th century in the US, Italy, Mexico, and other latin American countries, so it wouldn't suprise me if that mural at Rockefeller Center had Communist undertones.

Did a little research and found that Diego Rivera, a Mexican painter, and COMMUNIST was commissioned to do a mural at Rockefeller Center in 1933. I knew I had read about this before, and found it in a book about the American artist Lee Brown Coye, who is known for his horror art and woodcuts.

Lee was certainly aware of the trouble Diego Rivera had in 1933 when the muralist declined to remove the face of Lenin from a nearly completed fresco for the RCA building at Rockefeller Center in New York. Rivera believed "art should be propaganda. Art which is not propaganda is not art at all." Since Rivera's propaganda was no John D. Rockefeller, Jr.'s propaganda, the building's agents gave Rivera a check, fulfilling their contract, then dismissed Rivera and (to the dismay of the art world) the mural was jack-hammered off the wall.

from Arts Unknown: The Life and Art of Lee Brown Coye - p42

I just looked up the clip of Beck talking about the fresco's at Rockefeller Center and his analysis of them. Art is subjective. Is he reading too much into it? Maybe. But Communist ideals were rampant at the time in the art world and some of this art could have those undertones.
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post #482 of 489
9/12/09 at 11:24pm
So much for ignoring Mr. Secret Army. Nice work, people.
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post #483 of 489
9/12/09 at 11:28pm
Hey, I was bored and waiting for my girlfriend to finish playing Shadow Complex so I could have my turn on the 360.
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post #484 of 489
9/12/09 at 11:30pm
I quoted him in my post, my mistake. But I meant to address everybody. That'll be the last time I acknowledge his existence.
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post #485 of 489
9/13/09 at 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Sure, sounds like a lot of money, but when people who own small businesses have to give away half their income, what do you think will happen?
The top 1% earns 21% of AGI* and is responsible for 40% of taxes. The top 10% earns 46% of income and is resonsible for 70% of the taxes. Really, the people who should be complaining most, though, are the top 5% - the top 6-10% earn ~10% of the income and are responsible for ~10% of the taxes. Really, even the 2-5% aren't that skewed - earn 15% of AGI, pay 20% of taxes (the 2-5% group is making between 150k and 364k).

So only the >$364k AGI crowd is not able to create wealth due to an oppressive tax rate. Poor guys. And MOST small business owners I know are NOT in the $364k neighborhood. So they are fine.


* - adjusted gross income.
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post #486 of 489
9/14/09 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sideway View Post
Rationing and increased revenue are NOT the only solutions. How about cut out wasted levels of overlapping management and bureaucracy, corruption, and fraud? Why is that the left's first solution to every problem is raising taxes?
There isn’t a single reputable economist on the left or the right that views the combination of bureaucracy, corruption and fraud as the primary culprit in the rocketing costs of healthcare. So sure, if they can be taken care of, great, but the waste is in how we incentivize healthcare, and the inefficient care we provide because of that. You can’t bring down costs without reducing services, and because of how broken our healthcare system is, you can actually cut care without adversely effecting outcomes (see: every country with universal coverage).

If that’s the case, why fight affordable and efficient care?

As for raising taxes, if you care at all about universal access, it’s going to cost money. Acting like something that ambitious can be done for free is lunacy, unless you’re somehow into deficit spending.

Everything else is just talking points.
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post #487 of 489
9/15/09 at 2:44pm
I'm just glad to have a president that shouts, and yells his speeches. He doesn't bore me with funny faces, and the words "uh" and "ah" every two seconds.
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post #488 of 489
9/15/09 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walesczcak View Post
Is there really ANY respectable perspective from which Glenn Beck does NOT look like a loon? Can you seriously defend ANY of his ideas?
He interviewed the Jesus Camp lady when he was still at CNN. He had a Hollywood sign for a backdrop. When told about the dangers of warlocks and Harry Potter books, he pointed at the backdrop and said "Lady, the only warlocks that exist exist there," or some such.

So, despite being a liar and obviously mad, he's smarter than Jesus Camp lady.
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post #489 of 489
9/15/09 at 4:29pm
The waste also comes with the competition in a profit based system. When EVERY hospital has to buy the newest gizmos in order to compete with eachother, costs are sky-rocketing! Even when these things primarily sit there and collect dust.

In other countries different hospitals specialize in different areas which makes it a lot more cost efficient.
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