Change My Mind About ____ - Page 3

I need help with Steely Dan. I get that they're great musicians but they always sound like really great musicians playing elevator music. I admit part of it might be Donald Fagen's voice.

My entry point was Mule Variations (yes, I was late to the party), and I've found that it's an excellent "sampler" of his various styles. My favorite album is a toss up between Alice and Nighthawks at the Diner, but I've found that Waits is a very, very hard sell. People either seem to recognize he's what they've been looking for their entire life, or they shuffle uncomfortably out of the room and stop calling.

Me, I tend to get Waits mixed up with God all the time. It's embarrassing at church.

Wow. Lyrics have always been more important to me than music. I don't care how amazing the licks are, if the lyrics are retarded, I can't dig it. I guess this is why I'm such a fan of bands like The Mountain Goats, where music feels secondary to the writing.

Funny how people are different.

Don't ever let him coach your dynasty.

Convince me I should watch Predator: The Quietus (1988) on MGMHD right now. In actual HD. Then try to figure out why this movie isn't even on IMDB.

You guys are fucking useless. A guy who looks like Gary Numan fucked Sebastian from Blade Runner and they had a kid is stalking people around the woods on some grainy film stock and he's giving soliloquies. Some Boston Terrier just got killed in a cave. I wish some of our Brit Chewers would let me know what the deal is with this movie. MGM hi-defs this fucking thing and I still can't get Rolling Thunder or Sugar Hill on DVD. Asshole lion.

Are you drunk again, Phil?

My BAC has nothing to do with the fact that while WB and Universal find new ways to make their archives available to the masses, MGM's doing some decidely weird shit, release-wise, with their sketchy-ass back catalog.

Thing is, you're not that far off.

Steely Dan is kinda like Leonard Cohen, in that it's an artistic voice that has already worn through adolescence and takes an emotional maturity for granted (in Steely Dan's case, there's often a cynicism that Cohen usually avoids). Their ironic detachment is atypical for a musical form whose themes are generally structured around involvement and personal commitment. There's also a fair amount of obscurity ("pretzel logic," as it were) and in-jokiness in the writing, which can be offputting.

And musically, they follow the same path: they assume that the listener has already absorbed the rock and R&B that they grew up on, and only refer back to it here and there, aiming for a post (pre?)-rock sophistication with their music that matches their artistic tone of voice. They'll play with time signatures and instrumentation to challenge themselves and their audience, even if the actual song in question is a fairly simple one.

Which means that it's damned easy to find them just a bunch of noodling jazzbos whose relief at having left adolescence behind is in direct contrast to what we think of as the "rock and roll" attitude.

It helps, I think, to try to tune out the vocals, saxes and keyboards and such, and focus on the rhythm section (typically Becker on bass, with guys like Jeff Porcaro and Bernard Purdie, among others, on drums), and the lead guitar (typically Jeff Baxter or Elliott Randall on the early albums, jazz players like Larry Carlton and Dean Parks, and Becker himself later on). When you find that you can enjoy the groove underneath, what's up on top makes more sense. If I were singling out a few tracks for attention, I might suggest "Boddhisatva," "Black Friday," "Show Biz Kids," "Kid Charlemagne," "Don't Take Me Alive," and "Josie" ("Do It Again" and "Reelin in the Years" would fit, too, but they're so overplayed on the radio that it can be tough to hear them fresh).

I basically enjoyed Steely Dan when I was in high school and college (saw them open for Elton John once), but I simply didn't have the life experience to appreciate them the way I did in later years.

In fact, around the time that "Hey Nineteen" was a hit, I had an experience that was so close to the one in the song that it caused me to go back and re-listen to my old Steely Dan albums, and I discovered again and again that there was a lot there, both lyrically and musically, that my teenage ears had just not been ready for.

Having said all that, I doubt the Dan would wind up in my alltime personal top 50-- maybe not even top 100. But they're nice to have around when I need that particular mix of world weariness and resignation.

It all depends on the artist, of course. Lyrics are definitely important, but the first thing my ears connect to when I listen to a song is the music, ultimately.

Zeppelin is such a powerhouse musically the lyrics take a backseat for the most part. There aren't many bands that were/are as tight and visceral as Zeppelin.

Predator: The Quietus spoiler: It was a rubber werewolf that was also the brother of the creepy Gary Numan/Sebastian hybrid.

On the subject of words vs music (and sorry to be derailing Phil's discussion), I've always tended to regard "It's got a good beat- you can dance to it" as sort of first principles where rock and roll is concerned.

But songs have words, and words have meanings, and if a writer can match music with words that are more than a way to keep the singer busy, I'm always going to respond more strongly.

Similarly, if I can get everything a song has to offer by reading the lyric sheet, it's not something I'm likely to revisit the way I do a song that provides me with aesthetic as well as intellectual pleasure.

Very nice write up, Jeb. I'm a big Jeff Porcaro fan so I'll start with the stuff he plays on and go from there.

Ha ha, I always just browse by "new posts" and only just realized this thread was in the music section. Sorry!

Excellent point. I think that's why Tom Waits is one of my favourite artists. His music is is almost always about performance (musically, lyrically etc.) rather than just singing. They lyrics are one thing but his performance brings out a whole new level to those lyrics and to the music. It's the difference between Mariah Carrey hitting every note in a song and someone like Bill Withers amazing very different inflections on the phrase "I know" in "Ain't No Sunshine".

You could also look at Lyle Lovett's performance on "Stand By Your Man" which become a plaintive, begging for forgiveness kind of song.

The two albums produced by Jim O'Rourke, Red Apple Falls and Knock Knock are where I would start (listed under Smog, but Smog is really just Callahan). They're probably the best and most accessable. But I don't know what exactly you've heard so far. His most recent albums are a little quieter, often too quiet for my taste. Not that the ones I'm mentioning are "loud," really, only in comparison.

Translation: I was drunk.

You must have REALLY liked Mad Men last night, Phil.

Listening isolated Bowie's songs from the Berlin era (like I did owning the Platinum collection) it's the worst think you can do. This work begs a complete listening on its own.
Perhaps nobody asked for it but my advice on LCD, "On repeat" & "Yeah".

Is there a thread like this for movies, as well?

Tons. They quickly degenerate into "I have bad taste" kind of thread.

I figured as much.

Well, then. Staying with music. I feel like I should like Ben Folds. But I don't. Someone set me right.

Also: can anyone provide a defense of Pink Floyd after Waters left? I tried to like A Momentary Lapse of Reason; I really, truly tried. But my ears melted off my skull in disbelief and I never went back.

(Of course, some of the real die-hards must say the same thing about Floyd post-Syd...)

I can't listen to just a single Bowie song. It seems so out of place. You are right, especially the Berlin era must be experienced as a whole.

First off, I don't know if there's a way into Folds' work that could be better than the first, self-titled Ben Folds Five album and Whatever and Ever, Amen. If those two don't work for you, I doubt any of the rest will.

Second, it helps to consider the musical context at the time he and his band emerged. The first BFF album was under-the-radar enough that I remember the only people being into him were folks who were also into GbV, Pavement, Sebadoh, which now sounds ludicrous, since Folds sonically has more in common with (great, early) Elton John and (good, early) Billy Joel. Basically, he brought melodic, classic pop to a period in which the best poppy bands were fuzzy and lo-fi.

Also, his snark is underrated. Especially early on, he was a wry, funny fucker who wrote character sketches like nobody's business and laid the bile on like a slightly less-pissed-off Elvis Costello.

A lot of Floyd fans I know have no problem with Lapse as far as the music goes. It's the lyrics that drive them batty.

There is a very distinct musical shift though. To me they're more like Gilmour solo records as they sound very similar to, well... Gilmour's solo records.

The main thing for me is that the live shows from that era, especially Pulse, are up there with the best work that Floyd did live.

Personally, I really enjoy A Momentary Lapse... and Division Bell. And there is some really solid work on there. But compared to the real "meat" of Pink Floyd's career (i.e. Meddle through to The Wall), it's definitely on a lower tier.

Nothing can really equate to the main foursome in my eyes (Waters, Gilmour, Wright and Mason). But I also do not understand the vile hatred towards those two albums.

Beat me to it...

In the years since they've been released, I find it's best to consider the post-Waters albums to just be Gilmour solo albums with special guests. Even still, the only song I still really dig off of Momentary Lapse is One Slip, and not much off of Division Bell any more, really.

I would like to share this.
As soon as I read the reference about The Black Raider I remembered this thread and the love for it.

Neko Case.
New Pornographers.
Tool (already caught with Lateralus...)

I forgot if there was a "how to start with X?" thread so I will drop the question here...

Case - Fox Confessor Brings the Flood
New Pornographers - Mass Romantic or Twin Cinema
Tool - I have increasingly less tolerance for their overwrought bullshit, but the stellar musicianship's enough for me to retain some admiration for parts of Aenima.

Thanks Dave.
I will give Tool a try I loved their videos when I was a teen that's all the reference I have.