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The Office Discussion Thread - Page 8

post #351 of 1094
11/6/09 at 12:54pm
Well, we've seen that Micheal has a sweet side when he's in love (Holly). But it sucks that they felt the need to give Micheal a legitimate excuse for breaking up with Pam's mom, other than he was turned off by how old she was. Micheal has always had kneejerk reactions. To rationalize this decision with Micheal having an honest debate with himself about the life he wants to lead doesn't sit right with me.
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post #352 of 1094
11/6/09 at 12:55pm
Was that excuse really legitimate? Or was it just a convenient out for Michael?
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post #353 of 1094
11/6/09 at 12:57pm
Yeah, Div, you know that I tend to defend Michael's behavior, but even I found his actions indefensible last night. So, I don't think the show was really attempting to justify what he did (although Michael damn sure tried).
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post #354 of 1094
11/6/09 at 12:58pm
It seemed that he was really thinking about the things he wanted in life. Of course, it was a fleeting debate, but those are real issues someone in his situation would have to consider.
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post #355 of 1094
11/6/09 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Bean View Post
Oh I thought the apology was much more the fact that the gifts and birthday lunch were actually really nice and sweet.
Yeah, if we're talking about the better qualities of Michael Scott, they definitely come through in how devoted a boyfriend he can be (even if it's ultimately based in a fear of rejection) rather than how little he's experienced in life.

Were we really supposed to feel sorry for him because he's never been to Italy or competed in a triathlon? I don't think so. Those were obviously excuses to cover his fear of being perceived as old and uncool by association with Pam's mom. Those weren't justifications for his behavior, but rather provide insight into how he justifies his behavior, and they definitely don't engender sympathy.
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post #356 of 1094
11/6/09 at 1:07pm
Yeah, the only legitimate excuse of Michael's I bought was him wanting kids. Other than that, he wouldn't need Pam's mom to run a triathalon. And he's never going to run a triathalon. Didn't he have trouble with the Dunder Mifflin 5k for Rabies?
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post #357 of 1094
11/6/09 at 1:10pm
Personally the content of what he was talking about was less important than how he was rationalizing the decision. In any case, the whole bit came off as weak sauce.
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post #358 of 1094
11/6/09 at 1:27pm
I didn't have a problem with his decision per se, but the manner in which he effected it.
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post #359 of 1094
11/6/09 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
I didn't have a problem with his decision per se, but the manner in which he effected it.
Yes - again, he was just so tactless about it.

And to me, the reason Michael got himself into that situation to begin with is just exactly what Diva said - he has kneejerk reactions, one of which was getting involved with Pam's mother to begin with. He never takes things slowly, he gets himself into these situations without ever thinking things through before he acts. If Pam is probably in her late 20s, or possibly even 30, then it would figure her mother is in her 50s, unless she had her as a teenager, which isn't mentioned. Does Michael ever stop to consider things like that? Of course not. I think one of the things that does make his character so unlikeable in these instances is how he just jumps into situations that he thinks will make HIM happy. There's no thought for anyone else - just what he wants (i.e., getting lactose intolerant Meredith an ice-cream cake for her birthday because he wanted ice cream). And in situations like this, he doesn't stop to think about how all this is going to shake down until he's knee deep in it.
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post #360 of 1094
11/6/09 at 1:46pm
Right Lisa. I'm actually okay with how that was portrayed. Michael is a jerk. That's what he does. It seems to me, that by showing him trying to rationalize his decision, they are trying to humanize him a little. If he had heard Helen's age, and did one of his usual "ews" to the camera or something, it would seem more fitting. Micheal lives in his head and is generally insensitive to how his actions affect other people. Trying to justify his decision both to himself and others comes off as trying to soften the blow. Maybe sympathy isn't the right word, but I didn't see that as making Michael more of jerk (as some in this thread have said it made them feel).
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post #361 of 1094
11/6/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Right Lisa. I'm actually okay with how that was portrayed. Michael is a jerk. That's what he does. It seems to me, that by showing him trying to rationalize his decision, they are trying to humanize him a little. If he had heard Helen's age, and did one of his usual "ews" to the camera or something, it would seem more fitting. Micheal lives in his head and is generally insensitive to how his actions affect other people. Trying to justify his decision both to himself and others comes off as trying to soften the blow. Maybe sympathy isn't the right word, but I didn't see that as making Michael more of jerk (as some in this thread have said it made them feel).
He always rationalizes his decisions, though! What makes this a character trait, not an attempt on the writers' part to make him sympathetic, is that those rationalizations are stupid and self-serving. If "humanizing" him means "making him less one-dimensional" than yeah, they're humanizing him. If it means "making him more sympathetic," you couldn't be more wrong.
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post #362 of 1094
11/6/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
And he's never going to run a triathalon. Didn't he have trouble with the Dunder Mifflin 5k for Rabies?
I think a lot of that had to do with his alfredo carbo loading and refusal to drink water.
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post #363 of 1094
11/6/09 at 2:45pm
Hehehe, I actually ended up feeling a bit of sympathy for Michael precisely because (I think) it didn't feel like the writers were apologizing for him. And the fear on his face of being smacked by Pam. Hahahaha. A coward AND someone who doesn't know when to shut up. A trait I find in a lot of my customers I abuse verbally.

I did like that little touch of Pam muttering how Jim was right about the therapeutic benefits of hitting Michael.

EDIT: Has Michael had ANY legit girlfriends that haven't been blondes? Carol, Jan, Holly, Pam's Mom. The girl(s) from Benihana's doesn't count. Asians never do... (I've been watching through previous seasons lately, and Michael comes off JUST as bad. Hahahaha.)
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post #364 of 1094
11/6/09 at 3:20pm
Not bad for 58. Not bad at all.
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post #365 of 1094
11/6/09 at 3:22pm
Agreed. I was actually surprised. Pam's family has good genes!

But then again, I'm pretty bad with ages.
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post #366 of 1094
11/6/09 at 4:03pm
Toby teaching Pam how to throw a punch in FULL VIEW of Michael, made me laugh harder than anything yet this season. I also loved Kelly's popcorn, & Angela's "Put your hands in your pockets!" It was hilarious.

For many who have complained at how "bitchy" Pam has become, I agree to a point. This episode, however, is one where I feel her every action felt natural and (to me) completely justified. It was nice to see her actually warm to Michael a little bit when she saw how happy her mother was with him--and then to have even that little comfort taken away when Michael chickens out & puts his foot in it--like he always does.

When Pam expressed her desire to punch Michael, she was surprisingly calm & rational about it--which felt more natural to me & in character than her ranting & raving when she initially found out they were dating. Good ep.
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post #367 of 1094
11/6/09 at 4:24pm
I didn't realize people complained about Pam's bitchiness. I like it. It makes sense. She simply doesn't take annoyance from others anymore. I don't even think it's bitchiness. Maybe only relative to the way she used to be when the show first started. And that was mostly because the writers didn't seem sure how to handle her character other than be a Dawn Tinsley knock-off, albeit a lot mousier (mousey-er?). MEEKER!
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post #368 of 1094
11/6/09 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
I didn't realize people complained about Pam's bitchiness.
Oy! Then you haven't seen postings from the crazies over at Television Without Pity. Sometimes they make sense, but 90% of the time, they go way overboard. This morning's posts were a combo of Pam should be fired, punched or a combination of the two. They're just a bunch of nutbags.
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post #369 of 1094
11/6/09 at 5:08pm
One little character moment that killed me: Andy has purchased everyone taco fixins for lunch. The office is thrilled. Angela walks into the conference room, sees what lunch is, makes a disgusted face, and turns right around. Just perfect.
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post #370 of 1094
11/6/09 at 7:17pm
Lisa: Thank you! It was actually Television Without Pity I had in mind when I made my post. I too just took a trip there, and everyone is calling for PAM to be fired for violence in the workplace. Every week, it seems like everybody gangs up to make Pam the scapegoat for everything that's wrong(?) with the show, and it is really irritating...especially in this episode, where I thought her behavior was completely natural, in character, & justified. Heck, I'd be giving Pam punching tips, too...

Also, after Pam punched Michael, was he really LIMPING back inside? I'll have to rewatch that.

And what the heck is Ryan still doing on the show anyway? He's like the douche version of Creed--good for a one-liner or two, but not much else.
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post #371 of 1094
11/6/09 at 7:30pm
Yeah, he was limping. It was referenced in the show. One of the other characters (I think Oscar) asked why he was limping and he said he didn't know.

Sounds like the folks at Television Without Pity are a bunch of woman-haters.
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post #372 of 1094
11/6/09 at 7:35pm
And she only slapped him.
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post #373 of 1094
11/6/09 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ady Meet Roy View Post
And what the heck is Ryan still doing on the show anyway? He's like the douche version of Creed--good for a one-liner or two, but not much else.
The actor who plays Ryan is a co-executive producer and writer on the show.
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post #374 of 1094
11/6/09 at 7:42pm
Plus it's not like it's a bad thing to have someone around just for funny lines and little sight gags. That's kinda how the character started.
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post #375 of 1094
11/6/09 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Benenson View Post
Yeah, he was limping. It was referenced in the show. One of the other characters (I think Oscar) asked why he was limping and he said he didn't know.
It was Dwight, right before he offered to ice Michael's face with a frozen chicken.
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post #376 of 1094
11/6/09 at 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ady Meet Roy View Post
Lisa: Thank you! It was actually Television Without Pity I had in mind when I made my post. I too just took a trip there, and everyone is calling for PAM to be fired for violence in the workplace. Every week, it seems like everybody gangs up to make Pam the scapegoat for everything that's wrong(?) with the show, and it is really irritating...especially in this episode, where I thought her behavior was completely natural, in character, & justified. Heck, I'd be giving Pam punching tips, too.
I know! Every week, the first post is that the show sucks now, and they're taking it off their DVR, and Pam's a bitch, and this should be the last season, and blah blah blah. Same shit, different episode, y'know? I always take a peek over there to see what they thought, and it's always the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Benenson View Post
Sounds like the folks at Television Without Pity are a bunch of woman-haters.
They are fairly rough on the women characters to an extent. But they do the same equal opportunity hating thing with every show, every character. God, they've wanted Kate on "LOST" to be killed off for years now. But every show, every episode, it's just a general, "We hate this show now, I'm never ever watching it again, it needs to be taken off the air, etc." So, it's not really exclusive to The Office or to women. They're all just kind of douchebags over there. I usually get about two or three pages into their posts after any given episode before I tune out.
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post #377 of 1094
11/6/09 at 10:45pm
Ah, ok. I was half joking anyway. But the angry backlash from a certain fraction of the fanbase seems to be an across the board phenomenon with any remotely popular or cult-y show. I think it's just because a certain percentage of people are really fickle/have short attention spans and TV shows keep going for longer than those people are able to maintain interest and affection, so they move on to the next big thing and turn on the old. And some people really just like to hate and complain about stuff.

Of course, some shows legitimately go downhill too. And some of it has to do with perspective. If you're obsessively following a new show on a week to week basis the flaws might stand out more. Look back at hardcore Simpsons fans who thought the show jumped the shark after the first couple seasons, whereas now people look that as part of the golden age. Oh well, opinions are funny.
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post #378 of 1094
11/7/09 at 12:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
This thread's made me decide to rewatch the previous seasons of the show. A friend's gonna lend me season 2 through 4, at least. I wanna get more ammunition against Michael!
I would say on the whole that you aren't going to get much more ammunition. Michael was a much more interesting and sympathetic character in those seasons.

It used to be that the cringe-worthy moments with Michael were well timed and blended with other sides of the character....now he's pretty much one note.
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post #379 of 1094
11/9/09 at 1:27pm
I used to post a bit on TWoP, but I usually just read like I do here most times. When I open the eipsode thread now, I will maybe read the first page to get a feel for where the thread is headed. It's been way too negative recently for the show and Pam.

I never really understood why people will watch a show that pisses them off. I can see maybe watching hoping it will get better, but it seems like the same people are the same bitter people every week.

Anyway, I liked this one because it brought back the clueless, insensative Michael that can make a room so uncomfortable. And altho I knew he was going to break up with her during lunch, I was praying (beyond hope) that he would want until a proper time.

One thing I think was happening is that Pam and Jim saw where Michael was headed as soon as he heard how old she was (58? she's a GILF) they seemed to be happy knowing it was going to end soon, and Pam was even playing up the "now that I see how you make her happy, blah blah blah" it's okay. But when they saw just how soon it was about to end, their reactions were even better. I think that's some pretty classic Office.
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post #380 of 1094
11/9/09 at 1:57pm
I have no idea why, but I was incapacitated for 20 seconds after Andy said "What if Dwight dies and I still owe him? (shakes head) THAT is a recipe for a ghost." I had to pause the show. Just didn't see it coming.
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post #381 of 1094
11/9/09 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teitr Styrr View Post
One thing I think was happening is that Pam and Jim saw where Michael was headed as soon as he heard how old she was (58? she's a GILF) they seemed to be happy knowing it was going to end soon, and Pam was even playing up the "now that I see how you make her happy, blah blah blah" it's okay. But when they saw just how soon it was about to end, their reactions were even better. I think that's some pretty classic Office.
I didn't get that at all. Their reactions seemed more complex than that, keeping the Shel Silverstein realization to themselves and all. I thought Pam was sincerely trying to salvage the situation for her mother's sake, and that what she said (which was true) would have worked on anyone but Michael.
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post #382 of 1094
11/9/09 at 2:14pm
I finally watched this episode and can't believe nobody mentioned Meredith, who rarely gets the best line in an episode.

"He's not in the bathroom, but the seat is still warm so we may have just missed him."
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post #383 of 1094
11/9/09 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcujoI View Post
I would say on the whole that you aren't going to get much more ammunition. Michael was a much more interesting and sympathetic character in those seasons.

It used to be that the cringe-worthy moments with Michael were well timed and blended with other sides of the character....now he's pretty much one note.
Oooh, having watched through the season 2 through 4 in the past week has reminded me of tons more reasons to complain about the somewhat schizophrenic way the Michael Scott character is written.

BUT... I'm on the final episode of season 4 right now. The introduction of Holly. And Carrell's interaction with Amy Ryan nearly makes me forgive it all. She was fantastic. Actually kinda makes me sad that she (actor and character) had to leave.
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post #384 of 1094
11/10/09 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
He always rationalizes his decisions, though! What makes this a character trait, not an attempt on the writers' part to make him sympathetic, is that those rationalizations are stupid and self-serving. If "humanizing" him means "making him less one-dimensional" than yeah, they're humanizing him. If it means "making him more sympathetic," you couldn't be more wrong.
This. this this this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
BUT... I'm on the final episode of season 4 right now. The introduction of Holly. And Carrell's interaction with Amy Ryan nearly makes me forgive it all. She was fantastic. Actually kinda makes me sad that she (actor and character) had to leave.
The part where he's helping her fix her chair and he does the Yoda voice and then immediately regrets it, but then she talks in a Yoda voice back to him... yeah that's amazing. I miss her too.
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post #385 of 1094
11/10/09 at 10:27am
I almost cried when Holly left because it meant that Michael would become insufferable again.
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post #386 of 1094
11/10/09 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Bean View Post
The part where he's helping her fix her chair and he does the Yoda voice and then immediately regrets it, but then she talks in a Yoda voice back to him... yeah that's amazing. I miss her too.
I loved that part. I thought, "God, someone just like him, who seems really nice and reasonably normal otherwise!"
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post #387 of 1094
11/10/09 at 4:53pm
And of course, these days he's still hung up on Jan.
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post #388 of 1094
11/12/09 at 11:46pm
Poor Andy...
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post #389 of 1094
11/13/09 at 12:30am
Where is Pam getting all these maternity suits?
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post #390 of 1094
11/13/09 at 12:39am
I loved Kevin asking for the Swedish Chef, then indignantly insisting he was on Sesame Street.
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post #391 of 1094
11/13/09 at 1:46am
Woo! Savannah shout out!

Creed wins again, though Oscar trying to be southern almost beat him.

Does anyone else think the natural way to end this series is by having Dunder Mifflin itself shut down and everyone get laid off?
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post #392 of 1094
11/13/09 at 2:05am
I'd always assumed the series would end with Dunder-Mifflin going out of business & everybody going their separate ways. With no end-date in sight, I'd suspected the writers had been carefully avoiding that subject; interesting to see it come up again. I wonder how much longer this company can realistically limp onward before collapsing.

Creed's reaction was funny, but felt more shoe-horned in than usual--I actually saw the gag coming this time, which usually doesn't happen w/Creed.

Poor Andy & Erin...they both looked soo disappointed.

The Mexican standoff at the end was retarded, but made me laugh anyway.
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post #393 of 1094
11/13/09 at 2:50am
I like how as the series progresses, Pam is becoming a lot more like Michael, and Jim is getting more serious and responsible.
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post #394 of 1094
11/13/09 at 3:33am
Sorry Office... You'll never top the fake shootout of Spaced. Hahahaha.

And it becomes more the clearer... everyone in this office deserves to work together. It was a cute episode, but due to my Michaelhate, there's only so much of this 'Method to Michael's Madness' I can stand.

There's only 2 obvious ways to end the show. The company closing and everyone going their separate ways as has been said. Or it just plowing forward with no real conclusion, except probably an emotional one.
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post #395 of 1094
11/13/09 at 5:05pm
I wouldn't be surprised to see them all end up working together somewhere new because no one else can deal with them. "Hell is other people."

Annoyed that NBC spoiled Dwight Vs. Dwight in the promos.

Dear god I thought Erin couldn't get any cuter and then she does that garter business with her game character.
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post #396 of 1094
11/13/09 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
And it becomes more the clearer... everyone in this office deserves to work together. It was a cute episode, but due to my Michaelhate, there's only so much of this 'Method to Michael's Madness' I can stand.
Yeah, this ep was a chore to get through. I dug the Andy-Erin stuff, but was sad how it ended. I hope they don't make this another Pam-Jim situation where they drag it out for years.
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post #397 of 1094
11/14/09 at 2:28pm
The Andy Erin stuff was great. They'll be a couple by season's end. And they're just as well suited for each other, in their way, as Jim and Pam or Michael and Holly.

Ed Helms deserves this arc, after what they put him through last season.
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post #398 of 1094
11/16/09 at 11:02am
Andy & Erin will get together a lot sooner than later. With how awkward the two characters are you didn't expect it to go smoothly at first, did you?
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post #399 of 1094
11/16/09 at 11:15am
So I guess they're veering away from Andy being gay?
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post #400 of 1094
11/16/09 at 11:16am
lol
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