Lawyer Chewers - advice for a job transition?

I'm not a lawyer but I know that there are Paralegal certification programs offered at either university or at the community college level.

Someone get Spook in here. SPOOK!

46 is nothing, Lisa. You've got a good 20 years left in the workplace, so don't think twice about getting an education and pursuing a career change.

I'm a law student, but I can answer this question to the best of my ability.

To my knowledge, there are no online paralegal schools that are ABA-approved. This might have changed recently, but the ABA is strongly against the certification of any online-only school, whether its a paralegal or law school.

If you're interested in becoming a paralegal, your best bet is to find a local school that can give a certification in paralegal studies that's not only ABA approved, but also approved by either the NALA (National Association of Legal Assistants) or the NFPA (National Federation of Paralegal Assistants).

From reading your profile, it looks like you live in New York City. Here are the ABA approved paralegal schools in New York State.

New York

Berkeley College of New York City, New York
Bronx Community College, Bronx
Finger Lakes Community College, Canandaigua
Genesee Community College, Batavia
Hilbert College, Hamburg
LaGuardia Community College/CUNY, Long Island City
Long Island University - Brooklyn Campus, Brooklyn
Long Island University - C.W. Post Campus, Brookville - PROBATION
Marist College, Poughkeepsie
Mercy College, Dobbs Ferry
Monroe Community College, Rochester
Nassau Community College, Garden City
New York City College of Technology/CUNY, Brooklyn
New York University, New York
Queens College/CUNY, Flushing
Schenectady County Community College, Schenectady
St. John's University, Jamaica
Suffolk County Community College, Selden
SUNY Rockland Community College, Suffern
Syracuse University, Syracuse
Westchester Community College, Valhalla

Source: http://www.abanet.org/legalservices/...ectory/ny.html


Hope that helps.

fuck yeah go here

I would be very leary of online schools. I worked as an admissions advisor, for a year, several years ago(worst job ever) for one of the major online schools, and let me tell you it is a rip-off. Basically, they will enroll ANYONE. They will take you through a fake "interview" to determine if you have the qualifications to enter their prestigous school. This will take at least an hour of your time and is specifically designed to make you think it is difficult to enroll. Basically, if you you sign the form and pay the $50 or whatever the entrance fee is, you will be accepted. I know, cause it was my job to enroll people

I enrolled a girl that was literally mentally challenged(retarded for the non-PC's). I told my director that I did not want to enroll her. They asked if she signed and paid, which she did.... and she was accepted. I felt pretty bad cause I knew she couldn't handle it. Her family called in yelling and screaming saying she has a medical condition etc. didn't matter. Sad thing is this type of stuff is status quo for online universities, because they are privately owned and only care about their stocks and their profit. What do they use to get people to purchase stock in their company? Enrollment numbers... Funny that people are so violently against universal healthcare, cause insurance companies think the same way, in terms of profit and not actually helping people.

The big kicker about some online schools is that if you drop out after 5 weeks, you owe the FULL TUITION. They will never tell you this, but that is the other way they make profit. If you can't handle the course work, too bad, you signed an agreement you didn't read and now you owe them $20,000- $40,000.

Some people that take online courses do graduate and do make something of their degree but I would say the vast majority of people that take online, probably shouldn't be taking it.

I highly reccomend going to school, but I would try and find an online course that is through a state or goverment supported university. Stay away from privately owned schools like the plague....

RCA: THANK YOU for that post regarding online universities. You confirmed my suspicians, and I hope that you don't mind me sending the text of your post to a friend of mine who is looking at doing an online university.

Unless you're a very good self-studier. I wouldn't recommend online courses. Online courses are only good for to get rid of General Ed courses. I did accounting courses online and I can't remember a damn thing. Which is why I'm retaking some this stuff in a classroom setting.

Yeah, don't trust any online university that's not part of a brick-and-mortar institution.

Goddamn you, Hollywood Upstairs Medical College.

Sure, that is not a problem. I have had some bad jobs(got a good one now), but that was by far the most soul draining work I have ever done. My assistant manager was called "The Deacon" cause he was "the best advisor in the university" and would always use religious examples in the work place, and ask students to pray with him when trying to enroll them.

Found out, a month after I quit, that he went to jail for 7 years for extorting millions of dollars through his church.

Here is a news report about his arrest:

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/pr.../051201d1.html

Only the best and brightest work in online universities. ha!

Nice.

My girlfriend is a librarian at a large-ish engineering firm and is occasionally on hiring committees for other departments. The applicants that list an online university not affiliated with a brick-and-mortar institution on their resumes are usually rejected without the committee reading any further, usually with a laugh.

Maybe not fair, but true.

On the other hand, many of the librarians I worked with during my internship got their Master's of Library Science through online programs, which surprised me, but those were through state schools.

I agree with the entire sentiment here. Online classes are good in some cases, but usually it depends on the university.

My graduate school offered a lot of online classes and it is one of the top public affairs schools in the country. My undergrad did the same. That said, if a school ONLY offers online classes, that's when it becomes dangerous.

For anyone interested in going to law school, online-only schools are not and will never be not approved by the ABA. California has way too many non-ABA approved schools and degrees from those schools will never be acceptable for one to take the bar. Those schools are just like the school mentioned above. They eat your money out of pure misunderstanding by the student.

The student thinks they're getting a law degree, but it is in fact completely worthless. Sure, you can practice in California as a family attorney and make a decent living, but if California isn't your thing... you might as well get a real estate license cause the law degree doesn't mean shit.

In my opinion, I would focus strictly on a paralegal program that is based in an accredited university. I'd skip any separate paralegal school and go right for the state schools or NYU there. While separate privately owned schools are acceptable in their own right, you would actually be treated better at a state school or a private university. At private for-profit schools, you're treated not as a student, but as a consumer and a number.

It's sad too because there's a private for-profit paralegal school near my law school. My law school is a public university. While the tuition is probably a lot higher and it's a lot harder to get into, once someone exits the law school... their average salary is dramatically higher than that of a paralegal.

While I don't want to change your mind or anything like that, you might want to look into actually going to a law school instead. There are quite a few older non-trads in my law school and they are embraced with open arms. Law school takes a TON of dedication, but the pay off (money as well as power, enjoyment) can be exponentially higher than that of a paralegal.

I want to echo this. Chances are you might be selling yourself short just because you might be older than the average student. Don't let this stop you. I've never seen anything but respect shown to nontraditional students in every academic situation I've been a part of.

The money is definitely an issue, granted, but your potential income, not to mention your sense of fulfillment, could very well outweigh the cost.

Thread of the day.

One other thing regarding online-only schools. The vast majority of ads you see on the internet for online schools are actually lead aggregators, not the actual school they are advertising, meaning they are really just trying to get your personal info so they can sell it to schools, and other outlets as leads(they have a sales force, disguised as admissions advisors, and they need to find as many suckers as possible to keep the profits going). Oddly, I deal with some of these people at my new job, so it is kind of interesting to see how they work, from another angle.

Best bet is to do research on your own, like you are doing, and take advice from others with experience like PE. Unless of course he is an aggregator for one of those schools, in which case you are screwed...

Just kidding about PE, he definitely sounds legit.

EDIT: to first paragraph

No No.. go here. Peter Weller could be your professor!

No problem. If you need anything else, don't hesitate to PM me.

If you don't really have the time, then law school is a bad idea. Although depending on your work experience,your undergraduate grades and your potential LSAT score, you might have a good shot at a scholarship.

I was thinking about creating a thread about something similar today, but I guess I can just comment on it here. I was watching CSPAN and a Republican congresswoman made an odd comment about personal responsibility and student loan debt during a floor debate on a new and great student loan debt bill being pushed through the House. There, she said that students shouldn't have to be in 50,000 dollars of debt to go to school. It's just better to go to a cheaper school or community college. She hinted at the idea that those who want to get more education and are stuck with the absurd student loan debt because of that have to suck it up and deal with it.

I couldn't disagree more. Education should be the most important virtue in our country today. Without it in our growing technological world, young people today are slowly becoming more and more behind without some sort of education outside of high school (I don't mean just college, but vocational schools as well).

I have a Bachelor's, a Master's, and I'm getting a Juris Doctorate at the moment. I still feel like I want to continue and possibly get a Ph.D. afterward. I am currently 150,000 dollars in debt. Yet, student loan debt isn't the same as the typical credit card debt. Student loan debt is the cost of getting an education. An education that will give you much more opportunities to make far more money than someone without a college education.

I'm of the opinion that money shouldn't be an option in going to school. The only way money should stop someone from getting an education is if for some odd and random reason that person can't get federal loans for their schooling. It's an investment that can pay off in spades if used right and done well.

I can understand the time restraints you may have for possibly getting a law degree. Law school is hell for most people and many of us spend 8 hours a day studying. That said, you might want to look into possible part time programs at a local law school. There, you can take one or two classes at night after work. You won't graduate in three years, but it might give you a boost in possibly wanting to go to school full time.

I know a few mothers of small children who go to school with me full time and they have told me how it is possible if you're willing to try. I don't doubt that you have the ability to try, so maybe sitting on a class or two (which you can do no problem) wouldn't be a bad idea?

http://www.howtobecomeaparalegal.org/

That's your one stop shop link. From there you can find out a lot of info then you know.. branch out, talk to some lawyers in the field you're interested in and ask them what they look for in a paralegal. Some people pretty much just want an administrative assistant with legal knowledge while others want someone who will do almost the entire case load.. until you know what field you're looking to get into and what type of office your best bet is to keep doing research...

I'd like to chime in quickly about online classes really quick: they suck. Seriously, I'm going back to school to get a masters and I'm doing pretty much the whole program online since no local universities had the degree I wanted.

The school is on quarters and the classes meet once a week. That means every week I've got a 3-4 hour lecture to watch at home. Let me stress how incredibly boring this is. You might think that regular class is bad, imagine having to make yourself sit at your computer and listen to a guy talk not directly into a mic for your whole evening while there are a million other more interesting choices available to you is even worse.

If there is any way you can physically go to the class I'd strongly encourage taking it that way.

As you may know, I'm an attorney. I actually know very little about how one becomes a paralegal, so the advice you've already been given is probably more accurate than anything I can give you on that score. I do know that a lot of my friends from college went on to become paras, for at least a few years, in NYC. They had degrees ranging from poli sci to journalism, so your BA probably doesn't matter.

As for the stability of the career, in this economy nothing is as stable as in years past. My office (house counsel for a large national ins co) used to be a great place for stable paralegal work. But they have recently laid off damn near every para in the office, and we are outsourcing our work to an office in another state (same co, though). I think that damned gekko has screwed the pooch for everyone in the industry by offeriing their bare bones, low cost services, forcing all others in the game to follow suit. So at least until the economy turns around, insurance companies and their in houe firms may not be the way to go.

Large, old money law firms (of which there are a metric shitload in NYC) might be a safer bet. I've never worked in such an environment, but I hear they work thier attorneys pretty hard from those I graduated law school with who did. I have to assume their paras get worked pretty hard by said attorneys, as well. Depending on the firm, this can be pretty tough on you, and demand lots of overtime. There's perks, too, though. One guy told me he, another couple associates, and a few paras got to travel out of state on complex commercial matters to go through boxes of documents and sort out the stuff relevant to a suit venued in NY that touched upon out of state vendors and such, as copying & shipping the whole mess was not really practical. All was on the company dime, as well.

I'm not sure to what extent government law offices use paralegals, but they may be more secure than the insurance industry as well, particularly when the economy turns around. Right now, I assume seniority is king in those jobs, and the 1st hired would be the 1st laid off if the budget gets cut. But if you do get in at a good time & secure some seniority for yourself, you'd be just as hard to get rid of, I'd imagine.

Is the work interesting? I guess it depends largely on what you'd be doing. But everything gets to be routine after awhile. In my experience, paras do a lot of legal research, which can be time consuming & tedious. Particulrly if what you're researching is corporate law (contracts can be very, very dry, and ultimately all it boils down to is who gets paid for a given transaction or dispute; hardly socially relevant work. Here's where a gov't job may shine, as well, because you may get to do something that actually helps some constituency or other)). But no matter what kind of law you're researching, it's a thrill to find that one precedent that says exactly what your partner needs it to say, and you bring it to their attention, perhaps winning the case (or at least part of it) for them. You can look like a hero, and if they're smart they'll take care of you based on your ability to do this. You'll probably also get to draft legal documents, which can become kind of routine after awhile, as well. But again, if you craft a really good one, and the atty you're working for is saved a lot of work thereby, that can be cool, too. When you're a law student, working as a legal intern, you pretty much do stuff like that. It had its moments.

You can certainly make the transition, your age notwithstanding. There were people in their 60's in my law school class. I didn't keep in touch with any of them after graduation, but I imagine they're all working somewhere. Age didn't hold them back, it would seem. most paras probably are younger, true, but I think that makes them more likely to move on to other things. The added stability your maturity implies may appeal to an employer.

One thing I'd say is to avoid solo practitioners or small firms unless you have no other choice. They generally don't make a lot of money (comparatively speaking), and view what money they do make as theirs; your pay is coming out of their pockets. You can expect them to be cheap. There are exceptions, of course, and some more prosperous solos make out well enough that they can afford to share the wealth, and do so. But many are just scraping by, and pay thier support staff accordingly.

Wherever you end up, be prepared for crushing deadlines. The law is pretty unforgiving in that respect, and it adds to the pressure on the attorneys, who in turn pass it on to thier staff. Solos are, again, even worse on this score. They're the only attorney in the office, and have to keep a lot of balls in the air at the same time. They rely heavily on support staff, and mistakes will get made. Some can be very costly, and the atty is ultimately responsible. Larger firms can spread the work around a bit more, and are less likely to freak out over relatively small errors,a s they have the financial wherwithal to withstand such setbacks. Solos or small firms may not. I saw bosses at a small firm I started out at rip into secretaries (hell, on at least one occasion I did it myself, sorry to say) because they made a mistake. We didn't have paralegals there, but I think a lot of the work the secretaries did was what paras would have done if we'd had them. IMO, it isn't worth it to stay in such an environment.

Hope that helps, but I fear it's mainly useful after you get certified. Good luck. keep us posted on your progress, pilgrim.

I am an attorney as well, and have worked with individuals who do paralegal and paralegal assistant work. The vast majority of those folks have not been certified, though some have. I have found that experience on the job ultimately meant a hell of a lot more than the certification process (though a certificate may get your foot in the door, it's the experience that will decide if you're going to sink or swim).

Basically, it seems like most people that end up doing paralegal work affirmatively said "I'm tired of secretarial duties, let me do more," and they basically expanded their role. Kind of exactly what you're doing. And they're typically 35-45. Which was weird when I started out in my mid twenties.

I'm just glad you and Overlord have made up. [*SNIFF!*] It kinda gets me. . . right here. . . . [voice cracks]

I know nothing about paralegal studies (and I'm late to the party anyway), but I'll echo a lot of the sentiment about online universities.

I'll also add that a lot of smaller (often 2 year) universities often "mixed" classes. The college I'm at right now does some of this. You might meet in person once every week or two (or three), and the rest is done online. We also have some nice software that lets us teach to students via video and audio feeds. It isn't the same as being there, but is much more interactive than a typical online course that basically uses discussion boards. The instructor can see everyone's webcam's (if they have them) in little thumbnails and can enlarge them and bring up their audio so that the whole class can hear them. It is more like distance learning than online learning. And, of course, in the background, the professor can have PowerPoint or whatever in a window for everyone to follow along with as well as having a video/audio feed of themselves.

Anyway, lots of options out there with new technologies. I know a lot of places also offer classes that mean in the evenings or just on weekends. I think the closer you can get to an in-person 2+ day a week class, the better.

Like someone else mentioned, the "basic" knowledge based types of intro courses can be ok with almost entirely on-line courses, but the more complicated things get, the more direct interaction is important.

Regarding age, most of us professors LOVE LOVE LOVE the 30+ non-traditional students. We know they want to be there. We know they actually want to use what we are teaching to better themselves. It is quite refreshing. Some of my favorite students have been single parents trying to get better jobs for themselves so that they could provide better for their families (and be less bored on the job).

Also, is this paralegal degree/certification 2 or 4 year? If it is 4 year, I know a fair number of colleges and universities run branch campuses, and you can do the first 2 years at a branch campus (they are more teaching focused and usually provide a better schedule and resources for a non-traditional student), then you can very easily transfer in to the 4 year program to finish up. Not sure if that is helpful for the paralegal field, though.

Good luck!

Lisa,

I would caution against paralegal work. Right now the legal market is absolutely hemorrhaging jobs, and many licensed attorneys are doing what a few years ago would be considered paralegal work. And they're fighting tooth and nail to get it.

It all depends on the school as well. The University Of Pittsburgh offers incredible incentives to veterans, and since Pennsylvania has a well-known shortage of doctors, the state will subsidise your entire education costs if you practice medicine here for at least 4 years. Suffice to say, I start pre-med this spring...at 42.

That's the best of news, Lisa. Congratulations on taking that first step. While you have a lot of hard work ahead of you, the hardest part is over now.

Excellent news! The very best of luck to you!

Lisa and Lima: AWESOME news. Congrats to both of you!

Have you read Henderson the Rain King by Saul Bellow, Lima? It might provide some literary guidance, if only because the pre-med student protagonist is in his late 50s. You're a whimpersnapper compared to him.

It's on my already-way-too-long "yet to read list". I'm still only 1/2 way through Saul Friedlander's "The Years Of Extermination", and then I have to tackle Stieg Larsson's "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo"...

Having a fiancee with a B&N discount card is painful.

Lima, I salute you on your medical career. I can only wish to one day even make an attempt at applying to the FBI (Probably in five years).

Excellent! Very glad to hear the great news! All my best!

I start spring of '10. I still have to find a place to live, but my fiancee already has a job lined up, so we are mostly squared away for now.

Ed, it might be easier for you to apply for Homeland Security or the ATF. I still have government friends, so if you want points of contact, then shoot me an email, and we'll get you sorted out.

Any chance that you could get me a cushy government job, Lima?

Lima, thank you so very much for the offer. I must admit, I probably won't make any attempt until I improve my resume. I doubt DHS wants my three fantastic years of bill paying experience.

If you can, avoid Oakland by the school. That place is a sewer. Squirrel Hill is nice; and a lot of decent folk live in Shadyside and go to school at Pitt.