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Alan Moore says "Oops! My bad!"

post #1 of 148
Thread Starter 
http://www.mania.com/alan-moore-refl...le_117529.html

On The Killing Joke:
"This has nothing to do with Brian Bolland’s artwork, which was of course exquisite. I’ve never really liked my story in The Killing Joke. I think it put far too much melodramatic weight upon a character that was never designed to carry it. It was too nasty, it was too physically violent. There were some good things about it, but in terms of my writing, it’s not one of me favorite pieces. If, as I said, god forbid, I was ever writing a character like Batman again, I’d probably be setting it squarely in the kind of “smiley uncle” period where Dick Sprang was drawing it, and where you had Ace the Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite, and the zebra Batman—when it was sillier. Because then, it was brimming with imagination and playful ideas. I don’t think that the world needs that many brooding psychopathic avengers. I don’t know that we need any. It was a disappointment to me, how Watchmen was absorbed into the mainstream. It had originally been meant as an indication of what people could do that was new. I’d originally thought that with works like Watchmen and Marvelman, I’d be able to say, “Look, this is what you can do with these stale old concepts. You can turn them on their heads. You can really wake them up. Don’t be so limited in your thinking. Use your imagination.” And, I was naively hoping that there’d be a rush of fresh and original work by people coming up with their own. But, as I said, it was meant to be something that would liberate comics. Instead, it became this massive stumbling block that comics can’t even really seem to get around to this day. They’ve lost a lot of their original innocence, and they can’t get that back. And, they’re stuck, it seems, in this kind of depressive ghetto of grimness and psychosis. I’m not too proud of being the author of that regrettable trend."
post #2 of 148
Fuck you Chelios!
post #3 of 148
Hasn't he been going on about this for years?
post #4 of 148
He has been going about this for years, and I love THE KILLING JOKE, but sadly what he says about the industry merely locking themselves into a new rut is true. Still, there's so much good work out there that if you know where to look, you won't be so disappointed.
post #5 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadew1 View Post
Hasn't he been going on about this for years?
When he's not writing Alice In Wonderland porn.
post #6 of 148
I would argue that all of his superhero stuff from the 80s brought a dark, subversive edge to the mainstream. Having just reread "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" again after years, I was surprised at how twisted and melancholy aspects of it are. Contrasted by Curt Swan's beautiful silver age artwork, the rampage of Bizarro and Luthor's neck snapping (amongst other things) are just...unnerving.

I guess the wink at the end balances things out, but...

It really wasn't until Supreme and Tom Strong that Alan Moore actually wrote the light hearted adventure tales he's always going on about.
post #7 of 148
It feels like Moore has been saying something to the effect of this for...at least a decade, I'd guess?

I'll certainly agree with him that The Killing Joke is no big shakes. There's something very DO YOU SEE about the Bats/Joker two sides of the same coin shtick, the WWII argument is sort of absurdly chosen (everyone knows you go to WWI when you want to highlight the insanity of war and governments), and the paralyzing of Batgirl is the big daddy of all the unecessary "let's kill/mangle this likeable character for shock value" efforts in superhero comics (reaching its nadir with Infinite Crisis despicable erradication of the JLI characters.)

The problem with Watchmen is that it's a dead end. After you've done the mental exercise of figuring out what super-heroes would be like in real life, and come to the conclusion that, uh, well, they'd be psychotic fascists, where do you go from there? You could just take up a different genre alltogether, which is probably what Moore intended, but the plain fact is, there's always gonna be people who want superhero comics, just like there'speople who'll read fantasy novels or watch horror movies. I'm never gonna tire of the beauty of spandex, the spectacles and pageantry; Moore, I suspect, is too mature to see this need as anything but arrested development. But the point is, I don't think there is an "inteligent" way to deal with the conclusions Moore drew in Watchmen within the confines of a superhero story - which is why it's hardly surprising that the book's actual influence on comics has been so braindead, leading to a million titles that unambigiously potray Rosarch types as heroes.

The correct response in my view, and I'm sure it will sound juvenile or conservative to many, is to accept Moore's lesson, understand that a certain level of suspension of disbelief vis a vis hero's motivations and how they interact with the world is necessary for a good superhero book (lord knows it isn't a more insulting genre convention than many others in all mediums), and, well, basically act like Watchmen never happened. This is what most of my favourite spandex titles of recent years - Gail Simone's Atom, Dan Slott's She-Hulk, Darwyn Cooke's The New Frontier, as well as Moore's own Tom Strong- have done. It's interesting to note that most of these titles also push way more intensley for humour, and I reckogn that could be spandex comic's next (last?) step forward - a return to being funnybooks.

Ok, so all of this is coming from someone who reads and enjoys spandex titles. But of course there's a bigger issue here: spandex itself being the ruling genre of american mainstream comics, a decade old convention that still feels wrong and stiffling to a very large degree. I mean, I usually roll my eyes when we get into these mainstream vs indie debates, but it's pretty clear to me that, at least as far as genre goes, there's way more variety in the pop music top40 and box office top10 than in comic best seller lists. The fact that most of Moore's post Watchmen work isn't superhero comics at all is telling, and I think one problem spandex comics have is that we end up demanding too much from them because they've been catapulted to this singular position that never made that much sense - imagine if every best-selling movie in the country was a western. Departing from this without falling into any of the standard indie modes (which have their place, but can easily turn many people off as a genre even more rigid in its way than spandex) would be the trick - I think books like Scott Pilgrim, tha manga boom, and in a more rarefied way the availability of so many classic comic strips (there is still so much to learn from Herriman and Segar!) have been contribuiting to this, but who knows if it'll ever happen on a large enough scale.
post #8 of 148
Quote:
When he's not writing Alice In Wonderland porn.
Next up: Years of "I never dreamed I'd start a fairy tale porn craze. I miss the Snow White who didn't always give the dwarfs rimjobs." regrets!
post #9 of 148
Alan Moore should have died in 1998, lonely and mute.
post #10 of 148
Top 10 is still one of the best comics of the decade, so no.
post #11 of 148
Lost Girls is actually pretty great!

I think Moore's semi-recent work has been at least as interesting as his 80's stuff - League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Top10, Tom Strong, Tomorrow Stories and Lost Girls is a hell of a resumé.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
I would argue that all of his superhero stuff from the 80s brought a dark, subversive edge to the mainstream. Having just reread "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" again after years, I was surprised at how twisted and melancholy aspects of it are. Contrasted by Curt Swan's beautiful silver age artwork, the rampage of Bizarro and Luthor's neck snapping (amongst other things) are just...unnerving.

I guess the wink at the end balances things out, but...

It really wasn't until Supreme and Tom Strong that Alan Moore actually wrote the light hearted adventure tales he's always going on about.
Maybe, but it's a different kind of subversion than Watchmen or The Killing Joke, so filled by Moore's obvious love of the character and the universe he inhabits. I see it as a Once Upon A Time In The West type deal, as sentimental about its myths as it is subversive.
post #12 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post
The problem with Watchmen is that it's a dead end. After you've done the mental exercise of figuring out what super-heroes would be like in real life, and come to the conclusion that, uh, well, they'd be psychotic fascists, where do you go from there?

The correct response in my view, and I'm sure it will sound juvenile or conservative to many, is to accept Moore's lesson, understand that a certain level of suspension of disbelief vis a vis hero's motivations and how they interact with the world is necessary for a good superhero book and basically act like Watchmen never happened.
I agree. Watchmen was basically the last word on superheroes. It brought all the adult subtext out and saw it through to it's logical conclusion. That was the beauty of it. That's why there's nowhere else to go in that direction.
So just embrace the fantasy instead because that is pretty much a bottomless source of stories.
post #13 of 148
Lost Girls and Promethea are both amazing, so can't say I agree with you there, Nick.


Maybe people should just stop seeking interviews with the man so that he doesn't keep getting a venue to bemoan how he created the greatest comic book of all time.
post #14 of 148
Top 10, Promethea, Tom Strong, all really great. Let him be a fucking curmudgeon if he wants, it's not like he's really stopping any other comics from being made, and it's not like other great writers haven't stepped in to fill the void he supposedly left when he abandoned the mainstream.
post #15 of 148
Thread Starter 
I love his interviews.
post #16 of 148
I always wonder why people get so mad at Alan Moore for the stuff he says. I mean, is it because he vocally hates DC and Marvel? Do the two big publishing corporations really need defending against the mean old British creator?
post #17 of 148
Yeah, I like my geniuses to be curmodgeonly, and anyway Moore is invariably more vocal about the ideas that are exciting him at any given moment than the stuff he dislikes (granted, the former usually have little to do with comics.)
post #18 of 148
I pretty much agree with Moore, but he's given this "I wish I hadn't made comics so dark" interview about a hundred times.
post #19 of 148
Yeah, no shit. He should really get a hobby at this point.
post #20 of 148
I think he's practicing Dark Wizard or something. He should talk more about that.
post #21 of 148
Is he still fighting over the tapestry of the cosmos with Grant Morrison, or did Morrison put on his fiction suit and melt back into the betweenspaces?
post #22 of 148
He's been asked to give said interview a hundred times. Watchmen is his most famous work, the 80's were his most acclaimed period, and he's gonna get asked about those topics again and again until the end of time.
post #23 of 148
Thread Starter 
I'm pretty sure he's just so stoned all the time he doesn't realize he's repeating himself. The man has more roaches lost in his beard than you or I will ever smoke in our lifetimes.
post #24 of 148
I think he should write a story where he and and Neil Gamen are occult witch hunters tracking down an evil Grant Morrsion and his reality altering schemes, but thats by the by.

On topic the only reason he keeps talking about this is because people keep asking him about it.
post #25 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Savage View Post
I think he should write a story where he and and Neil Gamen are occult witch hunters tracking down an evil Grant Morrsion and his reality altering schemes, but thats by the by.

On topic the only reason he keeps talking about this is because people keep asking him about it.
I hear there's draaaaaama between Moore and Morrison, right? Some sort of "I'm the REAL warlock here!" type beef?
post #26 of 148
They're both sort of lunatics, so who knows.

If you honestly made me pick who was the medium's better writer, I'd say Morrison.
post #27 of 148
I would agree Brad, having just been officially introduced to his work about 2 years ago.
post #28 of 148
I cannot believe I am saying this, but wow, this is a shocking and disappointing statement from Mr Moore. As one of his biggest fans and supporters (and I make sure to say that upfront, he is a sorcerer after all) , I am dismayed to see him say such awful things about the Killing Joke.

Batman needs to be sillier? Someone has spent too much time writing books like Lost Girls and LXG (I'm a fan of both, but I also think Batman is perfect just as it is, it does not need to be made over the top like the 60s TV show. A brooding aristocrat psychopath who dresses up in a costume to beat up poor criminals is alot more interesting when the concept is taken seriously)
post #29 of 148
In that same interview from the first post, Moore really rips into Geoff Johns for Blackest Night, claiming writers today are so unoriginal they're stealing from material he wrote thirty years ago.

Ouch.
post #30 of 148
Moore is kind of arrogant and says that sort of thing a lot, in case you were unaware.
post #31 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Moore is kind of arrogant and says that sort of thing a lot, in case you were unaware.
Well given his body of work, I will not fault him for a degree of arrogance. Keep in mind, the man actually practices magic. I mean, I'd be full of myself too.

With that said, I usually agree with his statements and defend him to the death in any argument with friends. I am discouraged to see him attack his own work like this.
post #32 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
A brooding aristocrat psychopath who dresses up in a costume to beat up poor criminals is alot more interesting when the concept is taken seriously.
Sigged.
post #33 of 148
Well, by that logic, Moore must absolutely love the horrendously bad Brave and the Bold Batman cartoon.
post #34 of 148
That cartoon is fantastic.
post #35 of 148
That cartoon is the shit. They've had like 14 different Batmen on there. Including Gotham By Gaslight Time Travel Batman. They're having more fun with the DCU on that show than Timm did.
post #36 of 148
Thread Starter 
Best Batman cartoon yet.
post #37 of 148
Another post of support for Brave & The Bold. Too much fun.
post #38 of 148
Also that cartoon had episodes devoted to Kamandi, Plastic Man, AND Guy Gardner & G'Nort.
post #39 of 148
Yeah god forbid that Alan Moore ever take an idea from someone else and put his own spin on it.

I really like Alan Moore's writing, but I think there's a little revisionist spin here. There's little evidence from the time that even Moore saw following Watchmen as the dead end that it actually was. Heck, his Twilight of the Superheroes pitch is everything wrong with that dark subversion of superheroes.

He caught on sooner than most everyone else that it was a dead end, which is to his credit, but I've seen little evidence from the 80s that he didn't believe in what he was doing as the future. Heck, Swamp Thing probably has more moments of light than all of Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Marvelman/Miracleman, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow (where he slaughters 75% of Superman's supporting cast), and V for Vendetta, combined. Heck, For the Man Who Has Everything wasn't exactly a beacon of sunshine and light.
post #40 of 148
Thread Starter 
To his credit, I don't think he's complaining that dark, nihilistic stories exist or will continue to exist. I think he's complaining about the editorial decision to make that dark nihilism the ongoing norm for every title.
post #41 of 148
This thread is now about how great BRAVE AND THE BOLD is.
post #42 of 148
post #43 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Also that cartoon had episodes devoted to Kamandi, Plastic Man, AND Guy Gardner & G'Nort.
And Deadman.

Deadman!

ETA: I've said it before and I'll say it again - making Aquaman a pompous, self-satisfied Zap Brannigan type was a stroke of genius.
post #44 of 148
Also BIFF TANNEN as the voice of SPORTSMASTER.
post #45 of 148


Also, this.
post #46 of 148
Goddamn the fucking psychic future Batman cracks me up.

And the reference to Bat-Hulk.
post #47 of 148
Thread Starter 
The Gentleman Ghost and The Demon.
Case closed.
post #48 of 148
The weakest episode of Brave and the Bold was the Bronze Tiger episode. And even THAT was fucking good.
post #49 of 148
Brave & The Bold is gold, yeah. I don't know if I like it better than Batman: The Animated Seris, though, which to me hit the perfect balance between campy fun Silver Age bats and grim 90's Serious Wayne Is Serious Batman.

The Batman, meanwhile, might just be the worst animated incarnation of the character - worse even than the one who fought alongside Scooby Doo.
post #50 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadew1 View Post
I think he's practicing Dark Wizard or something. He should talk more about that.
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but.

Also, anyone who revels in the utterly insane clash of dark wizards that is the Moore vs. Morrison feud needs to read the "Zatanna" arc from Seven Soldiers, in which Morrison basically casts himself as Zatanna and engages in magical combat with Moore, culminating with a crack about Moore's beard.

Actually all of Seven Soldiers is about, among other things, Moore's impact on the DCU, and features a bunch of stand-ins for both him (all the bearded characters) and Morrison (all the bald characters).

Morrison's probably hit higher heights than Moore, with the exception of Watchmen, but Moore is, on the whole, more consistent. Someone blogged a while back that there were any number of comics writers who were more naturally talented than Moore, but that Moore worked his ass off with just about every script he ever produced, and that's what makes his work so solid. I'd say that's about right.
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