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Obama: Disillusionment and New Administration

post #1 of 164
Thread Starter 
There are a few diehard "Obamamaniacs" on the board and conservatives but not many Obama supporters who are vocal in their disillusionment on the politics forum, so I thought I'd start a thread to discuss those issues.

I worked for the campaign--seven days a weeks, 15-20 hours a day--and went to the Inauguration and Staff Ball. I had really, realy high hopes for this administration. On the campaign trail, whenever this guy entered a room or made an appearance at a large event, I always had a huge smile on my face. I was a true believer in the man and his message.

Then we got to February and the start of his administration going in full force. He was treating the Republicans like they were still the majority party and came out with a really, really weak compromised stimulus package. Okay, he ran on the whole post-partisan aura he was trying to project. Being nice is fine.

Then he didn't get a SINGLE Republican vote in the House and only got two votes that are still Republican in the Senate and had to water down an already watered down bill to get it. Because of that, we're going to need ANOTHER stimulus package to stave off Depression level unemployment. And this is STILL the guy's approach to "negotiating" with the Republican Party, even when they openly embrace the right-wing nutjobs that want to put a bullet in him.

After that, we get a good look at what a "fierce advocate" of gay rights he is in reality. The Justice Department has repeatedly defended DOMA with extremely homophobically worded briefs. He refuses to suspend DADT while Congress and the courts iron out the latter issue, even when it is completely within his rights to do that. After all that dodging, he signed a really weak executive order that is only good as long as he is President and it was only to contain a fundraising revolt.

He has yet to roll back any of the expansions of Executive power that Bush and Cheney brought to bear.

We still have black sites and have tortured even after we "suspended" the enhanced interrogation techniques.

He has not even tried to follow through on his promise to be the "most transparent administration of all time."

The White House/Baucus health care bill is a long, sloppy blowjob to the health care industry.

The principal villains of the financial collapse are his main economic advisors and--SURPRISE!--they are dragging their feet on regulating the financial industry and developing protections for consumers.

I could go on for pages with this. Is anybody else just completely disillusioned with the guy?
post #2 of 164
I told myself I'd give him at least a year. It's coming down to the wire and I'm still not completely thrilled, but I'm hanging on to my cautious optimism. I'll get back with this thread sometime next year, I guess. :P
post #3 of 164
I don't know, I don't see the guy being any less successful than any other first year first termer. The stimulus is a pretty damn big deal. Maybe I'm just disillusioned with politics altogether because I wasn't expecting any more out of a guy in a suit. I'm much more disappointed in the fucking ball-less dems that aren't taking advantage of their status. The House and Senate are full of giant pussies that continue to allow bitter and spiteful conservatives push them around. I'm getting pissed off just thinking about it so I'll stop now.
post #4 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Powers View Post
I don't know, I don't see the guy being any less successful than any other first year first termer. The stimulus is a pretty damn big deal. Maybe I'm just disillusioned with politics altogether because I wasn't expecting any more out of a guy in a suit. I'm much more disappointed in the fucking ball-less dems that aren't taking advantage of their status. The House and Senate are full of giant pussies that continue to allow bitter and spiteful conservatives push them around. I'm getting pissed off just thinking about it so I'll stop now.
This is the correct answer. For now. I'm still willing to let O slide for a bit, because he still has a metric shit-ton of stuff to unfuck and that will obviously take some time.
post #5 of 164
What nags at me is, what's his strategy? During the campaign I thought I knew what he "should" do that he wasn't doing, and he turned out to be right not me. I'm seeing with the health insurance debate that the longer congress dithers and Obama doesn't further take a side, a groundswell of support for the real thing--if not single payer then a robust public option--is making some headway. The financial services industry and Geithner/Summers is appalling, but maybe there's a strategy about that as well. Michael Moore suggests it could be that he's hiring the bank robber to help better protect banks. I also remember someone saying that if he were to come in guns blazing to uproot the entire industry he would have gotten shut down, but if instead he continues on the route Bush took, his "new" policies couldn't be blamed for the inevitable further collapse, which all wisdom dictates is coming. At that point, reversing course dramatically -- i.e. taking over the banks, etc. -- could be done with the public fully understanding the ridiculousness of top down fixes. I don't know though. I'm still giving Obama the benefit of the doubt. He has a lot on his shoulders, and I don't think he took this office to be a mediocre, ineffectual leader. I think he is up to the greatness the moment demands, and I just hope his strategy, whatever it is, helps him be that man.
post #6 of 164
Anyone who thought a single politician, even a president, was going to do much to the entrenched interests of the financial, energy, military, unionized labor, insurance, and medical sectors was being a bit naive. Look at how much fucking effort it took to get a miniscule defense program, the completely useless F-22 fighter, somewhat shitcanned. And that was just a tiny, tiny little pork project.

Basically, there will not be any meaningful systemic reform of anything so long as those who benefit from the status quo continue to do so such a great job paying for legislative votes, dominating and skewing the public debate, and screaming "the sky is falling" whenever Obama, or anyone else, has any message that isn't "blank check from the government, business as usual for you."
post #7 of 164
I think the man's the best we could have hoped for. I think he's handling it the way any professional would. The problem is that his campaign made him seem like a revolutionary. I mean compare his poster art to posters of Che.

There's no real use being disillusioned, I mean it was either him and his stimulus package or McCain handling our shit.

Also people are too focused on what he's doing for the economy (which is obviously understandable), but they're overlooking how good this guy is in terms of foreign policy and our image abroad. If we really do care about our national security then a man who was rooted for everywhere from Kenya to Cairo is our best bet.
post #8 of 164
The government in a 21st century western democracy is a machine of complexity unfathomable to the human mind. Shutting it down in order to drastically change direction will probably break it and cause more problems than it fixes. It was tried here in Greece in the early eighties and we're still feeling the consequences. The most you can expect is for the new guy to not fuck up when new problems arise and to change the medium to long term planning of the state. With these lower expectations in mind Obama seems to be doing alright.
post #9 of 164
Yeah, I hope it doesn't sound like cheap cynism when I say that basically you always have to expect anyone in a relevant political position (let alone the leader of the free world) to do some pretty fucked up shit - I mean, you look at some of the more canonized presidents of yore (Lincoln, Roosevelt, JFK) and there's plenty they did that would most likely have caused everyone on this board to splutter their coffee over the morning paper when they read about it, had we witnessed their terms. I have my disappointments regarding Obama, sure - the half-arsed approach to torture, total lack of stances on gay rights issues and failure to reverse the Bush administration's concentration of powers on the president are some of the bigger ones - and it'd be disingenious to say that at least it's better than Bush (tho I do still get a fuzzy feeling over knowing Dubbya's not in the White House anymore), but I'd say that, even amonst democrat presidents, Obama's doing pretty well.

Oh, also, he gives great speeches. Again trying to avoid having this sound cynical, but a president's ability to inspire has almost as much long-term effect as his actual policies, and speeches like the one he gave in Cairo are gonna give the US some lasting benefits in regards to international relations.

(Of course it's easy for me to say all this, not living in the USA and thus not having to face the consequences of the govt's decisions.)
post #10 of 164
The term 'irrational exuberance' comes to mind.

I certainly thought that Obama was the lesser of two evils as I looked at the choices for the '08 Presidential campaign. Then I bought into the hype by the time I voted in November.

Since then I've seen a lot of misteps that are common in that first year of a new president. There's also the matter of two wars, a major recession, and a Congressional leadership that is the weakest I've ever seen in my life. Then add two resurging powers to the world stage and a half dozen smaller geopolitical issues, and it's not an easy way to go.

Still, this is better than seeing President Palin presiding over the first sitting president's funeral in half a century. She'd probably announce her resignation during the procession towards Arlington Cemetary....

But I digress.

I had hoped to see more competence from his support staff, especially Rham Emanuel. Instead I see hubris the likes of which Gawd has never seen. The lack of proper vetting for these policy Czars bothers me. If a lightweight like Glenn Beck can prompt you to resign, you never should have been in the job in the first place. We don't need crazies from either end of the political spectrum involved in running the country.

Obama needs to get some significant victories under his belt, and soon, or he's going to be vulnerable in '12.
post #11 of 164
I'm more disillusioned with Congress than with him. But he's getting pretty close.
post #12 of 164
It's the system. It's broken, folks. As much I don't like agreeing with Overlord up there, he's right. It could be all the Zinn I've been reading lately, but "change" is not the way the government works. Right/left/whoever's in charge...it's in their best interest to keep the status quo.
post #13 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
This is the correct answer. For now. I'm still willing to let O slide for a bit, because he still has a metric shit-ton of stuff to unfuck and that will obviously take some time.
That's the way I feel. I love the guy, but I'm not thrilled with his progress. But as Ratty correctly points out, he has eight years worth of fuck ups to fix, and that could take years. I'm still hopeful, though.
post #14 of 164
I'm satisfied for the most part.

He's taking a bold strategy of pushing through 1) a major economic stimulus package 2) a major Environmental package (Cap and Trade) 3) a major overhaul of Healthcare in this country all while 1) Fighting two wars 2) the effects of the Recession/Depression on other countries and how that affects their foreign policy with the US 3) A pathetically weak Democratic Congress 4) a Rabid Republican party that really does begin to resemble an American Fascism/Know Nothing faction 5) Massive, massive debts accrued by George W Bush.

The fact that many people are pissed that he didn't fix everything after 8-9 months speaks more to the hype from the election.

And we have already forgotten: this is the first Black President of the Untied States! That fact alone is almost a kind of Baptism, washing away at least some of this nation's historical sins, and drawing out the real losers and hate mongers for the ridicule they deserve.

With regard to Gay rights: I am not surprised at the lack of vigorous action by Obama. In all his writings he comes across as a very family oriented conservative guy. Like many Americans he probably supports the idea of Gay Rights but it's not "his fight" if that makes sense. He has only so much political capital to use, and sorry but using it up on Gay Rights vs the Economy, Healthcare etc would be crazy. EDITED TO ADD: Bill Clinton pushed for Gay Rights soon after being elected and it really damaged him politcally

Not closing Guantanamo is the major let down for me so far. It seems he's learned that moving these people is not as cut and dried as he thought it would be. Also if you remember the GOP was screaming about "Terrorists on our Soil! Living next to your MOTHER!" for months. Again with finite Political Capital are you going to use it on that vs the larger issues?

Ask me a year from now and I'll have a better idea if Obama is a Jimmy Carter for the 21st century or one of the greats.
post #15 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
With regard to Gay rights: I am not surprised at the lack of vigorous action by Obama. In all his writings he comes across as a very family oriented conservative guy. Like many Americans he probably supports the idea of Gay Rights but it's not "his fight" if that makes sense. He has only so much political capital to use, and sorry but using it up on Gay Rights vs the Economy, Healthcare etc would be crazy.

Not closing Guantanamo is the major let down for me so far. It seems he's learned that moving these people is not as cut and dried as he thought it would be. Also if you remember the GOP was screaming about "Terrorists on our Soil! Next to your MOTHER!" for months. Again with finite Political Capital are you going to use it on that vs the larger issues?

Ask me a year from now and I'll have a better idea if Obama is a Jimmy Carter for the 21st century or one of the greats.
Yeah, but then gay activists have been hearing this for decades. There's always more "pressing" issues, or an election that can't be won if the candidate gets too outspoken, or deals with the republicans that can't be jeopardized. And the thing is, these are civil rights issues, and issues that have an enormous impact on many people's lives. Sure the situation ain't too rosy right now, but at the same time, I do think there's been enormous inroads made to marginalize homophobia this past decade or so, and if the whole thing had been played right, it may have done the Obama administration more good than harm. But to get back to my main point - is there ever gonna be a "convinent" time to tackle these issues? I somehow doubt it.

The Guantanamo situation is something that's never gonna be handled in a non-explosive manner - witness the reactions of european states when it was suggested that they might be receiving some of the detainees. But the problem is: 1- as with the gay rights thing, there's never gonna be a good time to handle this; whoever does end up dismantling it will no doubt receive copious public backlash, and how do we know that person's gonna be curageous enough to go through with it? and 2- every day that place stays open hurts America's credibility towards the world.

I think Obama won a historic election, has quickly become the most internationally popular president in decades if not ever, and his opposition is utterly in shambles to the point that a snake oil salesman like Glenn Beck can actually become its most visible face. He has more political capital than most of his predecessors. I mean, it's never easy; but it doesn't sit right with me to let issues lie because of this very seductive brand of pragmatism that can, in the end, be used to justify almost everything.
post #16 of 164
A dispatch from a self professed Obama-merican:

Not only is this Bill Maher's best "New Rules" segment in a long long time, I agree with it's message pretty much completely.


I'll say this: Obama is awesome, and he is the best chance America has to turn itself around before it is too late for this planet.

He is also, as Bill so perfectly puts it, my 'favorite TV character'.

With that said, seeing as he is our only chance, I do wish he'd get moving on some things and start kicking more ass. I believe and know that he is a good man, and that understands that when it comes to problems like global warming , no, god is not "still up there". He knows we need to get serious, or we get screwed.

Unfortunately, I also think he wants to be a great President and has it in his head he needs to be this uniter that brings everyone together... Blah blah blah

Fine. But it will never happen

Once he realizes that many in the GOP literally wish him harm, and the Democrats are spineless and bought out, he'll step up his game and get down to changing the nation. He is smart enough to know that at a certain point it won't get done unless he does it himself.
post #17 of 164
I guess the other question is: can current politics still be played as a chess game (which Obama hopefully seems to be doing) or has it devolved into something more primal and sinister like Dodgeball?
post #18 of 164
The truth is that the progressive movement in general is too passive. The far right--no matter how small or marginalized--are out there every day, advocating and organizing for their issues. Where is the left? Arnold opened up this twitter promotion called My Idea For California and no sooner was it up then it was spammed and reinforced by the pro-gun and anti-gay people. Whether it's five people monitoring it all day or hundreds of people mobilized by email lists, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. It's a microcosm of the entire issue, I think.

One of the biggest issues progressives should be advocating for is getting the money out of politics through campaign finance reform. Until that happens, big cash-rich corporations will always get their way, whether it hurts America or the world or not.
post #19 of 164
The other thing everybody needs to remember is that paranoid right-wing fantasies aside, Obama is a company man, what the 60s anti-establishment would have called a straight. He's always been more Eugene McCarthy or JFK than Bobby Kennedy, that was always apparent in his policies as espoused during the campaign. We need to remember that JFK was all about optimism and service as well, and was downright visionary in regards to NASA, but otherwise he didn't nearly make as many waves as people presume. He straddled the line during the Civil Rights Movement, sometimes fighting against the southern holdouts while simultaneously allowing the Feds to infiltrate and crack down on MLK and the movement. On the Cold War front he was alternately working to cool off the General Rippers at the Pentagon (especially at the urging of Bobby), but he also simultaneously signed off on killing Castro and starting in Vietnam. A lot of the real policy reforms of the decade came after his death with LBJ's massive policy blitzkrieg, but thanks to 'Nam he was fucking hated by progressives all the same.

What were we talking about again?
post #20 of 164
One thing that worries me at the Macro level is the lack of major wealth generating investments in this country by the Federal Government. The Stimulus package is mostly targeted at shoring up crumbling infrastructure built decades ago

You really have to go back to JFK and NASA, The Peace Corps and the Green Berets to see any impactful and creative initiatives.

And FDR and Eisenhower initiated and oversaw the major, nation changing programs like the New Deal and the Interstate Highway system. LBJ gave us the Great Society which has garnered mix reviews at best. Nixon-Bush 2 have given us bubkis.

Most of the major programs between JFK and now are essentially re-arranging the pie rather than growing the pie.

To cite one example, the Highway system led the explosion of car purchases/manufacturing, the creation of suburbs, and last but not least, the success of chain restaurants like McDonalds (and I know that sounds like a joke, but to a generation coming out of the Great Depression, the concept of being able to get food at a cheap price and with convenience must have seemed miraculous. Also that was before the mass industrialized version of food production we have now kicked in).

Healthcare and the "Green Economy" are promising but thus far there is no sign of the kind of vision and initiative I'd hoped for.
post #21 of 164
Obama is as he always was, that people’s projections have turned out to be false is hardly his fault.

In the end, we have a democratic president, and one who has—as far as I can tell—competently led this country and gotten his agenda through congress at every turn.
post #22 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
One thing that worries me at the Macro level is the lack of major wealth generating investments in this country by the Federal Government. The Stimulus package is mostly targeted at shoring up crumbling infrastructure built decades ago.
The problem is much bigger than that: our federal government is obsessed with the short term. Will the market go up THIS QUARTER, can we pay for a program THIS YEAR. They're pretty much slaves to the populist vote, corporate lobby largesse, and they know that any sacrifice of the here and now to fix something long term is going to be spun to death by the media and election opponents, and that their careers may end. Fill that pork barrel or you're out of a job.

Long-term investments/fixes that require short-term pain (particularly short term pain to well funded and connected industries or popular entitlement programs) seem to be impossible for our federal government to muster, regardless of the necessity of reform.
post #23 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
The other thing everybody needs to remember is that paranoid right-wing fantasies aside, Obama is a company man, what the 60s anti-establishment would have called a straight. He's always been more Eugene McCarthy or JFK than Bobby Kennedy, that was always apparent in his policies as espoused during the campaign. We need to remember that JFK was all about optimism and service as well, and was downright visionary in regards to NASA, but otherwise he didn't nearly make as many waves as people presume. He straddled the line during the Civil Rights Movement, sometimes fighting against the southern holdouts while simultaneously allowing the Feds to infiltrate and crack down on MLK and the movement. On the Cold War front he was alternately working to cool off the General Rippers at the Pentagon (especially at the urging of Bobby), but he also simultaneously signed off on killing Castro and starting in Vietnam. A lot of the real policy reforms of the decade came after his death with LBJ's massive policy blitzkrieg, but thanks to 'Nam he was fucking hated by progressives all the same.
Great post, pretty much summarizes my thoughts too. Of course it's more or less a given that someone has to become a company man to attain the office of the president of the united states; the uncomfortable part being that this entails allowing - or directly causing - a lot of stuff that your average right thinking progressive would find absolutley heinous.
post #24 of 164
On the one hand, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in some aspects of his performance, like failure to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell. But on the other hand, as I said in another thread, my big hope for Obama wasn't that he was going to wave a magic wand, it was that he would respond to pressure from the people in a way that Bush and co. didn't. He even pretty much said this in most of his speeches--"you've got to keep on me". Populist support would make a HUGE difference in progressive agendas, but the crazy idiots have hijacked the conversation. That's not an excuse for how passive the progressives have been, though. It's frustrating that so many people seem to think that their job ended once Obama got in. No, you have to continue the populist wave into forcing the feds to actually implement stuff.

Besides, as I said repeatedly during the Bush admin: this is not a monarchy. It's not about one guy at the top making all the decisions. Obama's putting in a reasonable effort; it's true that more passion or kung-fu legislation skills might squeeze more stuff through, but the whole point of the American system is that you don't confer too much power to the president. Plus, it's been a ludicrously short time, and he's clearly trying--we had the stimulus, we had Gitmo shut down, and now he's working on health care, along with some promising movement on the environmental front. That most of this is more watered-down than I would like is probably inevitable, given that seemingly EVERYONE on the left, politicians and citizens, is basically sitting on their ass going "C'mon, Obama, why haven't you fixed everything yet?"

I don't want to seem like I'm making blanket excuses for him, but again, the president can't actually do that much by himself. You guys really need to get out of that mindset and take to the streets again.
post #25 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
I don't want to seem like I'm making blanket excuses for him, but again, the president can't actually do that much by himself. You guys really need to get out of that mindset and take to the streets again.
Fundamentally, I agree. But with a filibusterer proof Senate, he has a lot more power than Bush had through his presidency and Bush was able to bring us to an unpopular war.

He spent weeks and months pushing for bi-partisan action on stimulus and health care. All this created was an opportunity for the right to gain influence and grow stronger.

And as much as I'd love for people to "take it to the streets," the reaction is never going to be the same as the tea-baggers...mostly because common sense doesn't equal crazy doesn't equal big ratings for cable news conglomerates. He needs to be clearer in his agenda, clearer in his plan, and firmer in general. He seems to be playing too much of a politician. The time for that is gone. Its time to stick to your guns and lead. Tell us what you want, get it done and stick to your guns. He blows in the wind a little too much. The whole public option debate is an example of that.
post #26 of 164
It's one of my main dissatisfactions with our political system that any President's first term is spent almost entirely on trying to get re-elected. He's not going to shake shit up right away, because that could cost him votes. If he wins re-election, then we might see him get some work done. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.
post #27 of 164
I think an important point here is that it's not about him; it's about us. If he tried to push through sweeping changes and almost no one knew (and was angry) about the facts leading up to those changes, then the corporate noise machine would crank up and destroy him. And an army of confused, uniformed people would turn on him. Our government is up against forces with infinite resources and to take a stand against them requires the support and insistence of an informed and energized public. To take a stand against these powerful corporate forces means not only a PR assault but zero political contributions in multi-million-dollar campaign seasons. Obama and congress need to be forced to enact legislation that will level the playing field. They won't do it on their own. It's sick but that's the reality we let metastasize in this country.
post #28 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
And as much as I'd love for people to "take it to the streets," the reaction is never going to be the same as the tea-baggers...mostly because common sense doesn't equal crazy doesn't equal big ratings for cable news conglomerates. He needs to be clearer in his agenda, clearer in his plan, and firmer in general. He seems to be playing too much of a politician. The time for that is gone. Its time to stick to your guns and lead. Tell us what you want, get it done and stick to your guns. He blows in the wind a little too much. The whole public option debate is an example of that.
But you could argue that "blowing in the wind" is another way of saying "letting the public influence his vote", which hardly seems like a terrible thing in a democracy. The trouble is that all the...wind...is coming from the crazy right.

I agree the deck is stacked towards the right in the current media environment, but that still feels like an excuse. The recent anti-G20 protests got coverage, and so, for that matter, did Obama's campaign. If nothing else, the message should get through to the people in Washington. Of those, Obama, at least, seems to be willing to listen (to a fault, as you say). If people were really taking to the streets, demanding a public option, the message would get through. Which is not to say there aren't still a lot of asshole Democrats who would ignore it, but you can't hold that against Obama in particular.
post #29 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
I think an important point here is that it's not about him; it's about us. If he tried to push through sweeping changes and almost no one knew (and was angry) about the facts leading up to those changes, then the corporate noise machine would crank up and destroy him. And an army of confused, uniformed people would turn on him. Our government is up against forces with infinite resources and to take a stand against them requires the support and insistence of an informed and energized public. To take a stand against these powerful corporate forces means not only a PR assault but zero political contributions in multi-million-dollar campaign seasons. Obama and congress need to be forced to enact legislation that will level the playing field. They won't do it on their own. It's sick but that's the reality we let metastasize in this country.
This exactly. If we ever want to get a productive democracy back, we have to remove the corporate interests from our political system. And since they now control the system, they'll be ready to spend hideous amounts of cash to scare the public into moving against any such measure. We're stuck with it because the public is easily manipulated by those with money.
post #30 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
But you could argue that "blowing in the wind" is another way of saying "letting the public influence his vote", which hardly seems like a terrible thing in a democracy. The trouble is that all the...wind...is coming from the crazy right.
Obama's entire problem is he has proven again and again that he can talk the talk of "spoiling for a fight" with the status quo and entrenched interest but he can't walk the walk. His deal with the pharmaceutical lobby is a perfect example of that. He gave away the entire store to them to keep them out of the fight. That seems awfully similar--or indistinct, if we aren't being charitable--to preemptively capitulating the fight.

Concerning the MSM, the media is completely on the side of the right because the people who own the MSM outlets are the corporate interests that real reform has to take on. The MSM, GOP, and corporate America thus have the same interests. It's the reason why you see the "TEA movement"--that is just blatantly organized by the lobbying arm of those interests--get coverage that treats whether or not it's a genuine grassroots movement as an actual honest question when they bring up the conflict at all. You're never going to get straight coverage from them on these issues, which is why I applaud the administration's aggressive stance on using the media.

Also, Gitmo is still open. The Republicans, at least, have leadership that knows how to get the rank and file members into line. Gitmo, health care, and every other policy initiative that has been taken up since late January shows that the Democrats do not know how to manage their own caucus or, worse yet, aren't actually interested in taking on the issues of reform they ran on. There is something very weird going on when the White House deals with the conservatives who dared to question his Olympics bid more forcefully than they deal with the conservatives in their own Senate caucus who are blocking the first solidly Democratic government in decades from enacting a Democratic agenda.
post #31 of 164
I feel you guys. I know its kinda lame, but after the Senate Finance Committee voted down the public options last week, I posted the news on Facebook, urging people (particularly those in the states represented by those who voted no) to write and get involved and not let our Senators put their interests before ours. Most people did nothing, didn't even respond. Some commented but mostly joked about how there was nothing they could do, that Senators ALWAYS put their interest above ours, so what was the point and blah blah blah.

Why is it that Fox can make idiotic suggestions and there are people on the White House lawn with Obama-Hitler mustaches but 70% of us want Health Care but nobody cares enough about it to do shit? Its frustrating all around.
post #32 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
I

Why is it that Fox can make idiotic suggestions and there are people on the White House lawn with Obama-Hitler mustaches but 70% of us want Health Care but nobody cares enough about it to do shit? Its frustrating all around.
There are demonstrations on our side, it's just the media never covers them. I myself organized a rally for the public option and the only aspect of it the local media covered was the TEA organization's counter protest. The media wants to run with the story that the public option is leftist, controversial, and unpopular because it is in the interest of their bottom line to run with that spin of the story.

As for the responses that you seem to run into, I think educated people tend to be cynical/realistic and just assume that no number of phone calls or letters is going to get a Senator who is bought and paid for to actually vote the way he should on an issue that involves those purse strings. Right-wingers, on the other hand, tend to be uneducated true believers. The last administration was a master at exploiting that. Just look at all the wedge issues they forced to the fore to get those people off their couches and back into the light of day. It's simultaneously impressive and depressing.
post #33 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Fundamentally, I agree. But with a filibusterer proof Senate, he has a lot more power than Bush had through his presidency and Bush was able to bring us to an unpopular war.

He spent weeks and months pushing for bi-partisan action on stimulus and health care. All this created was an opportunity for the right to gain influence and grow stronger.

And as much as I'd love for people to "take it to the streets," the reaction is never going to be the same as the tea-baggers...mostly because common sense doesn't equal crazy doesn't equal big ratings for cable news conglomerates. He needs to be clearer in his agenda, clearer in his plan, and firmer in general. He seems to be playing too much of a politician. The time for that is gone. Its time to stick to your guns and lead. Tell us what you want, get it done and stick to your guns. He blows in the wind a little too much. The whole public option debate is an example of that.
You have to remember that the "Democratic Party" is not monolithic like the Republican party has become. Democrats range from wild Lefties to moderates to fiscal Conservatives. They haven't viciously purged their ranks like the Republicans have. Obama can't simply issue orders like Bush seemed able to do.

I'd argue that if we had a stronger Speaker who was aligned with Obama we'd be getting a lot more done.

Obama has operated under a fundamental premise that he can bring differing sides together. That was his campaign and his Administrative style. Asking him to ditch that and become He-Man Democrat is asking him to openly betray the main reason he said he should be President.

His style seems to be to overwhelm Congress with a series of massive legislative proposals and see what gets through vs. pushing for one key legislative item. It's risky: but so would the strategy of pushing one thing and (maybe) seeing it get killed.
post #34 of 164
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Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
A lot of the real policy reforms of the decade came after his death with LBJ's massive policy blitzkrieg, but thanks to 'Nam he was fucking hated by progressives all the same.
It comes up time and time again, but the great tragedy of LBJ's presidency is that he was hung by Vietnam. If it weren't for that, we might have an entirely different popular view of the guy. The other thing is that, coming up through the Senate like he did, LBJ knew how to get shit done and wasn't afraid to strong-arm folks behind closed doors. Now, I'm not naieve and I know that's not how it's entirely done today -- but I thought that was one of the big reasons the President put Vice-President Biden on the ticket?
post #35 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
It comes up time and time again, but the great tragedy of LBJ's presidency is that he was hung by Vietnam. If it weren't for that, we might have an entirely different popular view of the guy. The other thing is that, coming up through the Senate like he did, LBJ knew how to get shit done and wasn't afraid to strong-arm folks behind closed doors. Now, I'm not naieve and I know that's not how it's entirely done today -- but I thought that was one of the big reasons the President put Vice-President Biden on the ticket?
That's one of the truly frustrating things about this administration: almost every single person in the upper levels of the administration is known as a legbreaker in Democratic circles. However, since they actually started governing, every single one of them as adopted the most passive style posible for their position. It's weird. Really, really weird. Even Rahm "I send dead fish to my enemies and threaten them with knives" Emmaunuel has taken a completely passive approach to dealing with people.
post #36 of 164
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Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
There are demonstrations on our side, it's just the media never covers them. I myself organized a rally for the public option and the only aspect of it the local media covered was the TEA organization's counter protest. The media wants to run with the story that the public option is leftist, controversial, and unpopular because it is in the interest of their bottom line to run with that spin of the story.
I know. Like I said earlier, its hard to call attention to your protest when you're making perfect sense and not making comparisons to Nazi's while dressed in an Uncle Sam suit. But at the same time, if there are protests out there, people should get angrier. Much angrier. I feel like democrats, aside from the leftist extremists (who often, I hate to say it, do more harm than good) are far too passive in general. Republican protesters are much better at being angry. Which is ridiculous because...what, exactly do they have to be angry for? Other than losing the election?
post #37 of 164
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Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
The problem is much bigger than that: our federal government is obsessed with the short term. Will the market go up THIS QUARTER, can we pay for a program THIS YEAR. They're pretty much slaves to the populist vote, corporate lobby largesse, and they know that any sacrifice of the here and now to fix something long term is going to be spun to death by the media and election opponents, and that their careers may end. Fill that pork barrel or you're out of a job.

Long-term investments/fixes that require short-term pain (particularly short term pain to well funded and connected industries or popular entitlement programs) seem to be impossible for our federal government to muster, regardless of the necessity of reform.
I agree and I think it's a Societal problem. People short timing the market, people judging this Administration after 8 months of 4 year term etc etc
post #38 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I agree and I think it's a Societal problem. People short timing the market, people judging this Administration after 8 months of 4 year term etc etc
I don't think anyone is making the complaint he should have fulfilled every single one of his campaign promises by now, the complaint is he hasn't done a number of things he could have done without sacrificing much time. Take DADT, for instance. Suspending its implementation would be about a fifteen minute exercise for him and he ran as a "fierce advocate" of gay rights. For some reason, his "plate is too full" to do that, but he apparently has the time to fly to Copenhagen to pitch the US Games. Things like that leave a bad taste in your mouth.
post #39 of 164
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Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Nixon-Bush 2 have given us bubkis.
I hate to be the guy defending Nixon, but I think, despite the man's obvious mistakes and legal misdeeds during Watergate, he actually was quite progressive. Were it not for Nixon, we would not have the EPA, the Clean Water Act, OSHA, and a whole host of federal agencies that, in today's climate, could not be created.

Also, let's not forget the old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China.
post #40 of 164
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Originally Posted by Spook View Post
I hate to be the guy defending Nixon, but I think, despite the man's obvious mistakes and legal misdeeds during Watergate, he actually was quite progressive. Were it not for Nixon, we would not have the EPA, the Clean Water Act, OSHA, and a whole host of federal agencies that, in today's climate, could not be created.

Also, let's not forget the old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China.
Just rewatched "Nixon" the other night. If only we had agreed to Nixons health reform. It was infinitely better than what's being considered now.
post #41 of 164
Thread Starter 
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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Just rewatched "Nixon" the other night. If only we had agreed to Nixons health reform. It was infinitely better than what's being considered now.
You're aware that Nixon is the reason we have the modern health care system, right?

Also, yeah, Nixon was progressive by today's standards. All that shows is how far Reagan shifted the Overton window to the right, not how progressive Nixon was.
post #42 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
You're aware that Nixon is the reason we have the modern health care system, right?

Also, yeah, Nixon was progressive by today's standards. All that shows is how far Reagan shifted the Overton window to the right, not how progressive Nixon was.
I am well informed about American history. The reason we have the modern health care system is because the Democrats in Nixons time were not willing to make the compromises it would have taken to get health care reform. So we got no reform, and instead got the evil mess we have now (Which yes, Nixon helped imagine in the first place, but keep in mind he was willing to do alot more but never got the chance)

And actually Nixon was not progressive, he was conservative. The EPA is a conservative notion... you know, being about conservation and all that.
post #43 of 164
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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
The EPA is a conservative notion... you know, being about conservation and all that.
So awesome. I've always wondered why libertarians are so liberal!
post #44 of 164
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Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
So awesome. I've always wondered why libertarians are so liberal!
Uh, Libertarianism and liberalism are different concepts with roots that mean different things. Unlike Conservative and Conservation which are concepts ideologically aligned
post #45 of 164
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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Uh, liberty and liberalism are different concepts
And for the first time in six months, I'm starting to regret my decision to stay away from the Politics forum.
post #46 of 164
I have to sort of defend Obama's decision to go to Copenhagen to lobby the IOC. I mentioned this in another thread, but one of the things about his presidency that I've really admired is he's been serious about making America play nice with others on the world stage again. There have been some blunders (Lockerbie, not closing Gitmo), but I think his commitment to international relations has been incredibly strong. I honestly think that his Cairo address will be seen in 20 years as an extremely important speech in terms of the modern history of the Middle East. His speech to the UN was part mea culpa, part recommitment to the UN. The IOC speech was, to me, Obama saying that the U.S. once again wants to be part of the world, not better than it.

Now, he hasn't had to deal with a new major foreign policy crisis yet, but he's not doing so bad thus far.
post #47 of 164
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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
The EPA is a conservative notion... you know, being about conservation and all that.
This is, quite possibly, the most idiotic thing I have read all day. And mind you, the first thing I read this morning was how some conservatives want to edit out the liberal passages in the bible (AKA Lord of the Rings for Christians).

I hope you were being facetious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
Also, yeah, Nixon was progressive by today's standards. All that shows is how far Reagan shifted the Overton window to the right, not how progressive Nixon was.
Agreed.
post #48 of 164
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Originally Posted by Spook View Post
This is, quite possibly, the most idiotic thing I have read all day.
Oh, stick around, pal. She can top it.
post #49 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
This is, quite possibly, the most idiotic thing I have read all day. And mind you, the first thing I read this morning was how some conservatives want to edit out the liberal passages in the bible (AKA Lord of the Rings for Christians).

I hope you were being facetious.



Agreed.
No. What I said makes perfect sense. The problem is that in the modern dictionary of American political terms, self described "Conservatives" are people against things like the EPA.

Just because there are a bunch of idiots out there though does not mean that conserving nature is not conservative though. Fair enough?
post #50 of 164
The guy has a lot to fix and he knows it. He said it would not be cheap and it would not be easy when he won the election, and he's facing some powerful stupid being manipulated by some powerful spiteful, so I cut the guy a lot of slack.

The Guantanamo situation is a damned sight better under Obama than under Bush and Cheney. The mills of justice grind slowly but they grind exceedingly fine, as they say, and I trust Obama a lot more than I did Bush to keep things by the book when it comes to treatment of prisoners. If not for the fearmongering about "terrorists on our soil" than this would be going a lot more smoothly than it is. Personally I don't see a need to tell the public who's in what prison, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, be glad your president is not a stupid man, or a corrupt man, and that he knows the difference between right and wrong. Nice change, isn't it?
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