The American way of life

I think our track record, when you take the good with the bad, is better than 98.5% of all other civilizations throughout history. I'd say we trump every society before the Twentieth Century and now are only out-philanthropised and under-agressed by a handful of Western European countries along with a few others.

Yeah, if you take any given page of history and really dig into it, it's likely to be rather horrifying. Not that it excuses anything, but I guess if you're looking for a silver lining, you could say that the US is pretty good about acknowledging the ugly truth of fairly recent atrocities like slavery, internment, small pox blankets, etc.

I'm sure you feel all warm inside now.

History is inked in the blood of the subjugated and preached to the ignorant choir. Every country, and I mean EVERY, country has horrors of such magnitude in their past that they shrink away from public perception and become the periphery of cultural experience. At least America attempts to recognise its prior savagery.

To answer your question: how can we go on? Most Americans now living had nothing whatsoever to do with the genocide of the Indians. Moreover, in a decade or so most living Americans will not even be descended from those who were involved with those atrocities.

(Not that I would excuse the actions of the early Americans against the Indians, but consider how the Spaniards treated the Natives in South America and Mexico)

At least we can acknowledge that these things happened. Just a quantum of Solace I know, but still....

It is sort of pointless to judge any country and its history through a) the lens of history books and b) with our modern set of morals and views.
A lot of atrocities and inacceptable situations of the past centuries began as being perfectly acceptable during their time, and due to various reasons became to be considered horrible, and subsequently were fought against, abolished, or ... well, lamented at least.

I think a lot of us, myself included, during the late 90s really had this idea of the western world having gone above a certain kind of behaviour as political and military entities. I actually did believe in stuff like the geneva conventions to have influence. When I started to serve in the german army, a lot of those views were challenged, and mere weeks later after the start of my service, 9/11 happened and from then on, it kinda went downward. Or did it? Nowadays, I simply think the curtain of illusion we had about ourselves got ripped, which happens now and then in history.

Several decades of relative peace and stability, the increasingly manipulative media coverage of events in the US media certainly not helping things either, made a lot of us believe in a world that really isnt there, at least not yet.
See, the USA probably never were above torture. But for 20, 30 years, it had not officially happened, so people assumed it was gone, because it doesnt fit into the morals and values of our current society.

Politicians, the military, secret agencies or whoever else knew about it were wise to shut up, and really, who wanted to know anyways? Amnesty International?

The german military taught me, quite early, they never intend to play by the rules if certain things happen, among them an attack on german territory. At the time, I kinda thought this was a bit megalomaniac, and that we wouldnt get away with breaking almost all the rules in the book.
After the wars in Afghanistan and especially Iraq, its now clear to me that at least those officers who taught me back then knew more about reality than I did. The USA got away with it, germany would too, and those not blinded by a curtain of nice, tidy, clean values and treaties know that, and have known it all along.

The USA arent alone in that. You guys may have been showing off with the moral higher ground a bit more, you may claim the more epic rhethoric or more "just causes", but thats more a matter of different political style and patriotism than anything else.
The USA was just the first to have reason to break the curtain of civility of the western nations to this degree. Its by no means the only nation which, given comparable reason, would do so, though.

What do you mean by "America" in this context, are you saying that the US should feel responsible for what the Spaniards did (and some of it unwillingly, it's not like they had biological weaponry)

there were some protests in some Latin american countries (surprise, surprise, it was in those with strong, socialist based native movements) yesterday in favor of no longer celebrating the "discovery of America" (October 12) because it reminds of the genocide and rape of indigenous people.
Not sure if thats an answer to your question, Cap.

I meant the United States of America specifically. And the Conquistadors racked up quite a body count with very few numbers.

Regarding the business of introducing germs to the Amerinds, that would have happened whether Whites gave infected blankets to them or not. The only reason Europeans were able to do this was because Europe had 90% of the population killed off by smallpox, plague etc.

And indeed, it was against "savages," and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. Most Native American cultures led a relatively savage way of life, namely because they had to. There was no dominant culture that existed long enough to supress the "barbarians" and enjoy an age of enlightenment.



Heck, in a decade or two most living Americans will be descended from those who were victims of those atrocities, and most will speak solely the language of their ancestor's oppressors.



The Spaniards, in addition to all Europeans. knew how to wage the biological warfare of their time. During the feudal millenium and all the sieges disease-ridden animals, rotting corpses, and infected materials were catapulted over the walls to the starving cityfolk.

Interesting. Did you grow up in California? I did until about the age of 9 or 10 then moved to South Caroline. In CA what history we got was very PC and bland. We learned about the Spanish Missions but nothing about how CA was actually created.

In SC, especially in High School we were forced to watch every newsreel about the Holocaust ( I mean the actual archived footage) plus all kinds of "The Klan is bad!" type of films etc. In SC there is (or at least there was) a lot of soul searching about Racsim and Race Relations.

And I'd point out one powerful flip side to the Forgetful Coin: Letting go of your past means you can make a future of your own. I don't think it is necessarily more healthy to wallow in guilt vs acknowledging history and then moving on and doing better.

I'm reminded of a Sorkin quote: "America is advanced citizenship." We don't need an airing of the grievances for the last 400 years, yt, although I do agree we should probably have something like a TRC for the last eight. Even though the atrocities you're describing have gotten glossed over in the schools and in the mainstream media, we don't need to be reminded of that each Thanksgiving and Columbus Day.

Being an American, at least to me, means being aware of our bloody history and our mistakes, but also our triumphs. Being an American means loving your country enough to do your homework, to go to the museums and read the histories, and then make up your own mind. That's what the American way of life is -- the choice to make up your own mind.

And for the most part, we've never shied away from the dark parts of our past. The beauty of the First Amendment means that all the secrets will eventually come out, and will be given light for future generations to make our own decisions. One of the things that I'm proudest of about this country is the way we make an effort to protect parts of our own history, all of it, the good and the bad. Not just Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty, but Manzanar and the Trail of Tears. Not just Mount Rushmore, but also Stone Mountain.

Not a public exorcism, but I think every true American patriot goes through a private one at some point. And that self-reliance, that self-determination, is the real American way of life.

Unfortunately, my copy of Sarah Vowell's Partly Cloudy Patriot is in storage, because she writes a lot about this idea, especially in relation to Thanksgiving. (Her ancestors were on the Trail of Tears, etc.) Vowell is one of the great twenty-first century essayists to struggle with the same conflict you seem to be having. I wholly recommend checking out her stuff if you haven't.

(Although this leads to the larger argument that as Americans, part of our civic duty is supporting institutions that are devoted to the preservation of American history, like museums and the NRHP, via our tax dollars. Which is a whole different bag of cookies.)

Yeah saw some of the recent ones on the news.

Some of them fail to recognize any good that came out of it and the fact that a lot of us wouldn't exist if that hadn't happened in the first place.

I'm descended on one side from people who came here 100 years ago and clawed their way to middle class, and on the other side from the indigenous people that got fucked. I'll celebrate whatever the fuck I want.

Hmm interesting. Since I am largely unaware of what you were taught, and what children are taught today about american history in school, I am sort of unqualified to comment on that.
In germany, once you hit your teenage years, you ll have history lessons about the 20th century, starting with WW1, then WW2 and going through all the ramifications, effects and legacies right up until the reuniting of the two halves of our country in 1989, in great detail. Actually, to the point where students get sick of it, visiting yet another concentration camp, or hearing yet another story about atrocities committed by germans.

I was kinda under the impression that you guys get the same treatment when it comes to the civil war, and the treatment of the native americans. That stuff isnt swept under the rug in history class, is it?

Because honestly, thats the best you can do. Teach history, interpret if you must, but then let people have their own opinion, instead of constantly reviving this endless debate about guilt. Know about it, learn about it, think about it, but dont feel or act guilty because of things well before your lifetime.

Whether or not you have a holiday here or there, commemorating a historical event of importance, really shouldnt weigh so heavily on your conscience then. Keep in mind that every event, big or small, whether it was good, evil or in between, helped shape the world of today. Just celebrating the ones that are currently considered "good" is hardly a testament to history either.

Exactly, Germans know about their past - but still have a shit-tonne of fun at Oktoberfest and Love Parade.

Sounds fair to me.

It's not that anybody should be miserable for the past, but it's important to acknowledge and know it, which has been pointed out here. Human nature doesn't change.

However, nevermind the States, what about Canada? The attempted genocide of aboriginal peoples just ended a couple decades ago. Few consider residential schools and the effects they've had, and many people are still deeply racially prejudiced, but it's not thought about often because we have this multi-cultural self-image which I love but, I'm afraid needs to be re-examined.

Many of the homeless are former victims, and a popular scapegoat to which all native peoples are weighed against in worth. Basically, the equivalent of spitting upon a Holocaust victim. I've heard some pretty horrifying shit. Government-sanctioned spread of diseases like TB to children. Widespread rape. Ah, it goes on. We're talking about the eighties here.

Gee, I graduated from high school in '90 and there were some Mohawks there with me. They seemed OK.

Not to say that there haven't been serious problems even recently, Hell, there still are big problems, but I always thought that natives in Canada are beter treated in modern days than natives in the States.

Other than cowboy movies, I never see natives represented in movies or TV. They don't seem referred to or represented much at all. In Canada, maybe it's our much smaller overall population, but they certainly have a bigger voice. They've even had native-centric TV shows, their own network, and if you're a native, you have great opportunities job-wise.

Louse once again proves he's an ignorant moron.

The welfare state SneakyPete is referring to has alienated many white people from being able to relate to first nations. There's a catch-22; first nations needed aid from the government, but when they accepted it there was a backlash because "they can't help themselves" and need "our money"; but some wouldn't have been able to help themselves without it - and now first nations can be ever-reliant on the government, because the only way to get jobs is with the government's help and money, since first nations are discriminated against as a people who can't help themselves; perpetuating a vicious cycle of racial relations. Suicide is particularly high on reserves, and I believe this welfare state, while necessary, also can lead to self-loathing because first nations are perceived as a drain on the system, because a combination of "rescue socialism" and everyday "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps" capitalism creates an underclass with little mobility. Ills like hard drug abuse, obesity, diabetes etc. are found disproportionately among first nations people. Occasionally you'll read in the paper someone prominent blaming genetics, like we have no culpability or that all these Canadians are pre-disposed to misery, which is bullshit.

A difference between an African immigrant finding a good life in Canada (eventually even self-identifying as Canadian and African), and a reserve-bound native 'as Canadian as can be' finding difficulty and being alienated by Canada, is that Canadians can relate more to the plight of a far-off country and blame somebody else's government. There isn't much self-analysis, if at all, about our past with first nations. Another reason is that black culture has great currency in Canada, while our academics disparage first nations culture as outdated, primitive, or needing to be "moved on from". There is far less dialogue with first nations culture than others.

I'm not sure about now, but I graduated from high school in 1982 in NJ (which is a state that's rich with Native American history), and the native american atrocities were never touched upon - not once. It wasn't quite, "Ohhh, look at the pilgrims and the indians enjoying the first Thanksgiving together!" But if you dig around many areas of NJ, you might still find Native American artifacts. We'd go on class trips to some of the sites, and still find arrowheads in the ground. That much being said, no, our teachers never sat us down and said, "Let's talk about what went on with the people who made and used those things that you found in the ground today." We learned almost nothing about our own local history.

However, I do agree with the overall sentiment in this thread. It's understandable to feel horrible for the past, but the best thing you can do with the past is learn from it, move forward, and try to make it all a better place for future generations. Let it shape you - I understand how you could feel depressed over it. But try to shake off those feelings of helplessness and let the past work for you.

Really? I live in Northwest Florida, and we learned all kinds of shit about Native Americans all throughout school (I graduated in 1999), including details of the various broken treaties and other atrocities. They didn't necessarily paint an "Colonists were horrible people" picture, but they didn't shy away from the bad stuff either. All things considered, we got a pretty fair education on the matter.

Dreary Louse...

I didn't mention a "welfare-state" in my earlier post...what I think you're referring to is the better job opportunities thing. Most of the time, when I see a job application, especially a government one, it has a box to check if you're a visible minority, native, or a woman. This is because they have a quota to fill: they want to give those groups a better chance because they tend to be underemployed, often due to racism or because the job is a non-traditional one for those groups, such as women in the correctional field.

My second point: what the hell are you talking about in reference to the government committing genocide on natives as recently as the 80's? Are you out of your goddamn mind?

Third point: As for why alcoholism and drug-abuse is so high on reserves: if the government told you you could go to college for free and get a job off the reserve or instead, live of them for free for the rest of your life, even if it meant at the poverty level, what would you take? It's human nature (and no, not native-nature, human) to take the easy way out. If the roles were reversed, most white people would do the same. I'm sure there is some residual depression and low self-esteem mixed in there, too. How would you feel if you were the "defeated" race? They shouldn't feel like that, of course, but when the government "lets" you have this and that and you go through racism, I'm sure it's a bad reminder.
Those Mohawk Nation kids I went to school with lived off the reserve and all went to college. Their dad was a town councillor and they're all great people. Natives should be proud of their culture, but if I was one, this is what I'd do: take the free college education, check that minority box on the job application and live a good life.

The last residential school closed in 1996.

You're talking about affirmative action and avoiding my points.

Money for school and other services is social welfare from tax dollars.

It isn't human nature to "take the easy way out", especially when suicide is so high among first nations, among other ills which are disproportionately found among first nations.

Also, in Winnipeg there is an epidemic of first nations women who just go missing and aren't heard from again. The police barely investigate because they're considered "high-risk" because of their race. This has been happening since the eighties and almost all cases are unsolved.

I'm not criticizing people for having an education, even from tax dollars. Please, reread what I wrote, or at least question yourself a bit before you say more ignorant things like alcoholism is rampant because people have access to a college-level education. Yeah, getting through school is such a breeze! But you really mean to say it must be easy if you're aboriginal, right? Because you think they have all the perks...thanks for reinstating my thesis.

Yes, now that I have my degree in molecular biology, I think I'll return home where there isn't adequate housing and become an alcoholic! Ah, isn't life grand!

Nope. Now, to be fair, I don't know what's gone on in the NJ school system between 1982 and 1999, so possibly that's been rectified in their public school curriculum. Or it may have been a problem with my school alone (Tim and Iggy are both from NJ, and both very close to my age, so they may have had different experiences with schools in their areas). I wasn't a rocket-scientist of a kid by any stretch, but I did excel in my history classes - and I can tell you, the Native American atrocities were never touched upon.

"take the easy way out" as in "accept government welfare checks, rather than work for your money", not suicide.

"question yourself a bit before you say more ignorant things like alcoholism is rampant because people have access to a college-level education"---uh, read slower, or something... My point was that drug and alcohol abuse is high because alot of them don't have goals or anything to motivate them if they choose to live on the reserve. If they choose to go to school, using the free education as motivation, they'll have better opportunities in life and be less likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. And before you accuse me of saying natives are lazy, might I point out what I said earlier: that if the roles were reversed, whites would be just as likely to take the handout and spiral down into depression and hopelessness. That's what leads to the drugs and alcohol.

No, I was saying that there's no actual "easy way", as evidenced by the cycle of poverty and other ills which persist, despite these opportunities you describe, such as how awesome welfare must be.

Many have no choice but to accept welfare checks, because people won't hire first nations because they believe they're lazy or adhere to other prejudices, and so this necessary welfare state only sustains itself like any other institution does, in this case maintaining an underclass of low-skilled workers.

Yeah, you say that white people would be in the same position, but this really avoids any debate or self-analysis about a serious issue, because you don't actually know what it's like to be first nations. Would you walk down NYC and tell black people you know what it's like to be black? Call them ni-----s? No.

One of the cons of a liberal mindset is to accept everybody as equal, feeling empathy to your fellow man - but without actually trying to put yourself in his shoes, cause we're all the same, maaaaaaan. Intrinsically, yes, but....