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Chud Album of the Month: Fleetwood Mac and Mahavishnu Orchestra

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
Fleetwood Mac-Live at the Boston Tea Party

I realize the first thing you think of when someone says the words Fleetwood Mac is west coast California pop/rock, Stevie Nicks and songs about mystical witches and an entire album about band members sleeping with each other. You'd never believe they actually started out as a pure blues band and somehow evolved. The original line-up of Fleetwood Mac consisted of Peter Green, Danny Kirwan, Jeremy Spencer, John McVie and Mick Fleetwood. What really amazed me about the Peter Green era is how amazing they were live, Live at the Boston Tea Party represents them at their most intense and their peak before it all collapsed in spectacular fashion leaving McVie and Fleetwood to pick up the pieces and carry on, there's alot of history in this band, Boston Tea Party shows what they could've been.
Boston Tea Party is how blues/rock should be played, loud and intense. Green and Kirwan provide some fantastic guitar playing, kicking off with 'Black Magic Woman, it turns into a great jump blues number towards the end, then Peter delivers 'Jumping at Shadows', the lonely solitary blues Peter is so perfect at doing. Like it This Way is an old fashioned chicago blues number sung by Kirwan, Only You is another Kirwan song sung by Danny and the band powering through it. The high point though is, Rattlesnake Shake, a 25 minute tour-de-force of blues/rock, Green and Kirwan are locked in all the way, the song ebbs and flows, starting heavy getting faster, then slowing down before picking up towards the end as the jam fades out, still going, you could call Green and Kirwan the duane and dickey of british blues, it's amazing to hear them play off each other and John and Mick providing a thumping rhythm section.
Jeremy Spencer comes on to play two classic blues numbers 'I can't hold out' and 'I got to move' before the band resumes with the last song 'Green Manalishi', Green's playing is great, he even delivers a tight bass solo.
I chose this one because it's one of the best live albums I've ever heard and truly underrated, Green era FM has been largely overshadowed by their later successes which is a shame, they were a hell of a band.



http://www.last.fm/music/Fleetwood+M...astered+Vol.+1

Mahavishnu Orchestra-Apocalypse



During the early seventies, Jazz was in a place of amazing creativity, artists like Miles Davis were experimenting with sounds and structures that sound almost alien. Out of this period came a band called 'Mahavishnu Orchestra', fronted by guitar player John McLaughlin and backed by Billy Cobham on drums, Jan Hammer on keys, Rick Laird on bass and Jerry Goodwin they came blazing out of the gate with 'Inner Mounting Flame' and 'Birds of Fire' before imploding due to creative conflicts. McLaughlin re-formed the band with a different line up, this time with Narada Michael Walden on drums, Ralphie Armstrong on Bass and Jean Luc Ponty on violin. With this line up, George Martin producing and an prchestra, McLaughlin went into the studio with balls the size of bowling balls and recorded 'Apocalypse', an epic musical statement or a complete load of bollocks depending on how you look at it. For me, this is the soundtrack to the most epic movie never made. The opener 'Power of Love' is quiet and contemplative, the 14 minute 'Vision is a Naked Sword' slowly roars to life, Smile of the beyond is the weakest song on the album but Gayle Moran's vocals are nice, Wings of Karma can be divided up into two parts, an opening with a middle eastern feel then a classic fusion jam before closing on the same middle eastern feel. Hymn to Him opens with some beautiful strings with the band easing in and building to an amazing crescendo, it's the longest track on the album.
I have to admire what McLaughlin achieved with this album, even if it doesn't fully work, the longer workouts do meander abit but the compositions are so good and the orchestra never overwhelms the band, it's a really nice balance. McLaughlin and the band gel really well, his playing is intense and soft when it needs to be, Ralphie Armstrong, despite being only 18 at the time, shows off some great chops, Narada Michael Walden had to live down being a replacement for Billy Cobham but he does some truly solid work here and Jean Luc Ponty fits like a glove.
Mixing Jazz/Rock with classical music is always a risky proposition, it can either come off as too cheesy and pompous, I think McLaughlin largely succeeded thanks to the strength of his compositions, both intimate and epic.

http://www.last.fm/music/Mahavishnu+...tra/Apocalypse
post #2 of 42
Oh HELL yes on Mahavishnu Orchestra. I personally prefer Return To Forever, but MO is definitely the goods.
post #3 of 42
Please subtract an http from your link
post #4 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
Oh HELL yes on Mahavishnu Orchestra. I personally prefer Return To Forever, but MO is definitely the goods.
MO v2.0 got a lot of flak, being compared to the original line-up was a tough road but Apocalypse was really quite something, ambitious and ballsy. Although I like the follow-up 'Visions of the emerald beyond', it really does sound dated.
post #5 of 42
I was able to find the full Fleetwood Mac album on Grooveshark, just FYI for everyone. The Last.fm link just had clips.

These are both way outside my usual wheelhouse. As a rule, I just don't dig blues or blues/rock very much. And I'm just woefully underexposed to jazz. This should be fun.
post #6 of 42
I am absolutely in love with the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Such an amazing, amazing, sounding album. It's beautifully atmospheric and really dense musically it's like picking your way through a musical soundscape.

Rock Band has kind of made me love 'Go Your Own Way' by Fleetwood Mac so I'm really interested in what their earlier, rawer stuff sounds like.
post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyeball Kid View Post
These are both way outside my usual wheelhouse. As a rule, I just don't dig blues or blues/rock very much. And I'm just woefully underexposed to jazz. This should be fun.
Same here. At a first listen though, I really like Mahavishnu Orchestra. And like Spike, I barely know Fleetwood Mac, but Go Your Own Way is pure fun, so I look forward to that.
post #8 of 42
Thread Starter 
Both albums represent a point for the two bands. In Fleetwood Mac's case, it's where they started, where they ended up was a melange of pop/rock which is really nothing like the heavy blues rock they were playing in their first incarnation.

In MO's case, it's where they've come from, the first two albums were much more heavier rock affairs, much more tighter and focused, what I like to call Speed Jazz. Apocalypse represented a quantum leap in the sound of MO.
post #9 of 42
damn, Dragon Ma; I almost wish that I'd stuck with Al Di Meola's 'Elegant Gypsy' album for my first pick (I swapped it out with Rainbow's 'Rising').
post #10 of 42
They're both on Rhapsody, too, by the way, though the Mac is set up as three separate disks.
post #11 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
damn, Dragon Ma; I almost wish that I'd stuck with Al Di Meola's 'Elegant Gypsy' album for my first pick (I swapped it out with Rainbow's 'Rising').
I'm glad you went with Rainbow, I already have Elegant Gypsy, I think Land of the midnight sun is still his best work in the seventies.

I don't think my picks are particularly difficult to find, I chose lastfm because they had the albums and it's a fairly well known site, I didn't realize they only had 30 sec clips.
post #12 of 42
It was great to hear the Mac album. I know I have a vinyl (boot?) somewhere that is drawn from these shows, but never heard the entire thing before.

I was a fan of theirs back in the day ("Oh Well" was a real staple in those early days of "underground" FM radio), but I kinda lost track of them after Kiln House (which led to my surprise in the summer of '75, when I went to a big outdoor Faces show, and one of the support bands was a Fleetwood Mac that featured two girls and only one guitar... though that one guitar handled both parts of "Oh Well" pretty damn impressively. Interestingly, there's a "Live in Boston" set from that version of Fleetwood Mac, too.).

I have to admit that the extended blues jam has become less and less of a priority for me over the years, but if you're going to have one, at their best, the Mac could give the Allmans a run for their money in that department. And they were willing to rock harder now and then (see, among others, "Somebody's Gonna Get Their Head Kicked in Tonight").

It's a generous set at three disks (even at that, isn't it missing the untitled jam numbers after the Little Richard covers?), but I honestly think I'd have liked it even more if it had been one well-chosen disk, as a lot of the material's just not that strong, so that things do drag a bit when Green and company aren't really working it out.

One thing this set reminds me of is how limited the view of pre-Beatles rock tended to be at the time: everyone and his goddam brother covered "Tutti Frutti" and "Great Balls of Fire" back then; how about some Hank Ballard or Gene Vincent or Bobby Blue Bland?

Anyway, as I say, great to hear the initial iteration of the Mac going out with a bang.

On to the MO...
post #13 of 42
Dragon, this Mac album is awesome!

<Fuck Stevie Nicks & Lindsay Buckingham>
post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
<Fuck Stevie Nicks & Lindsay Buckingham>
Not to get into too much detail here (especially not having listened to Dragon Ma's picks yet), but that right there's crazy talk. Nicks tends to be a contentious point (although I actually like a lot of her Mac contributions), but Buckingham's truly weird-assed take on pop songwriting and recording is in a class of its own. Not that it matters much here - totally different band with the same name.
post #15 of 42
Yeah, the latter day Mac produced some brilliant pop music, and Buckingham is a real original.

And, let's face it: if you love the original Mac, you can't be too unhappy about McVie and Fleetwood grabbing that brass ring; they'd paid their dues.

By the way, if you enjoy this Mac album, look for the 2-disk Blues Jam in Chicago, which is exactly what it says: the Mac joined by Otis Spann, Buddy Guy, Willie Dixon, and other Chicago blues luminaries.
post #16 of 42
Buckingham is one hell of a guitarist.
post #17 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
It's a generous set at three disks (even at that, isn't it missing the untitled jam numbers after the Little Richard covers?), but I honestly think I'd have liked it even more if it had been one well-chosen disk, as a lot of the material's just not that strong, so that things do drag a bit when Green and company aren't really working it out.
As far as I know, they released the boston tea party live sets separately, I got the first two discs, I chose the first disc because it was a more intense performance. The second set has a more focused version of Rattlesnake Shake but the rest isn't as good. The third one is the weakest.

As far as Buckingham goes, he's one of rock's most underrated guitar players, I have nothing against the Stevie Nicks/Lyndsey Buckingham era of Fleetwood Mac, they were a totally different band than the Peter Green era but they could still rock.
post #18 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ma View Post
As far as I know, they released the boston tea party live sets separately, I got the first two discs, I chose the first disc because it was a more intense performance.
Ah, I get it. The Rhapsody listing made it look as though it might be one big set.
post #19 of 42
Nicks & Buckingham take over turned the group into a sexier The Eagles.
post #20 of 42
To clarify, what was a fiercely soulful band evolved into a good pop group; they became a band that represented and embraced everything excessive about the 70's.
post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
Nicks & Buckingham take over turned the group into a sexier The Eagles.
when I get home in a few hours I wil help set yoiur thinking straight, my young friend.
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
when I get home in a few hours I wil help set yoiur thinking straight, my young friend.
Bring it on!
post #23 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
Nicks & Buckingham take over turned the group into a sexier The Eagles.
After the disintegration of the original line-up, McVie and Fleetwood went through various frontmen and guitar players before finding Nicks and Buckingham, their sound evolved as a result of locating to southern california. There were pop elements in the original line-up, I can understand where you're coming from but I don't think you're giving them enough credit, they created some pretty good pop/rock songs. The only problem with Rumors era Fleetwood Mac is overexposure.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
To clarify, what was a fiercely soulful band evolved into a good pop group; they became a band that represented and embraced everything excessive about the 70's.
Honestly, I don't see any of that at all. Christine McVie's voice has far more soul in it than those of any of her male predecessors in the band, and the introspection of songs like "Over My Head" or "Landslide", or the truly naked plaint of "Go Your Own Way" are as honest as they are catchy, and also brilliant recordings.

And Buckingham may not have had Green's interest in the extended blues solo, but as Judas points out, he is a helluva player: the modern Mac has no need to hang its head in the chops department.

The comparison with The Eagles seems particularly invidious; there's no hint of the Eagles' macho blowhard sexism anywhere in the latter day Mac.

I'm also unclear what was particularly excessive about the 70's. Studio techniques continued to evolve and allow musicians more options, but that's nothing new: the original Fleetwood Mac, after all, recorded on vinyl, in stereo, neither of which were available to Robert Johnson, but that doesn't make Mac's applying those tools to the blues "excessive." If you mean drugs and sex... well, Charlie Parker didn't die from being hit by a bus, and Sam Cooke wasn't shot by a disgruntled fan. Many musicians lead an excessive lifestyle; I doubt it was any truer in the 70's than at any other time.

There is one major lightweight in the Mac catalog, though, and that's Bob Welch. Give a listen to albums like Penguin and Mystery to Me, and you'll hear pop music that lacks the fire of the blues era Mac, but hasn't yet achieved the pop craft of the Buckingham/Nicks version. And "Sentimental Lady" is kind of a blot on the landscape, no question.

I'd also say that it's been pretty thin for the band since Rumors: there's maybe one full album's worth of material since then that ranks with their best stuff.

Nothing wrong with preferring the Green version of Fleetwood Mac, but it's possible to do that without dismissing the fine work of the band's latter years.
post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
I'd also say that it's been pretty thin for the band since Rumors: there's maybe one full album's worth of material since then that ranks with their best stuff.
Not a Tusk fan, Jeb? I don't think it's quite as consistent as Rumours, but the scope is so damn impressive, Buckingham's really stretching himself, and some of Nicks' best songs are on there (McVie's writing slipped a bit, though). I'd agree that subsequent albums don't quite measure up, but Tango in the Night has some pretty decent songs on it (although I'll take Buckingham's solo acoustic version of "Big Love" over the studio version).
post #26 of 42
I always found it funny that they hired TWO guitarists to replace Buckingham on that one album after 'Tango in the Night'. Sure enough, the two of them combined couldn't replace Lindsey.
post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Not a Tusk fan, Jeb?
Well, their decision to affiliate themselves with U$C didn't endear it to me...

But I agree it's ambitious and interesting; as I say, if there's a full album's worth of good post-Rumours Mac, at least half of it would come from Tusk. But neither it, nor its successors, have the astonishingly consistent level of songwriting of the 1975-76 albums.

And I'm not sure I don't prefer Buckingham's Law And Order to any other post-Rumours Mac, anyway.
post #28 of 42
Hey guys, nothing to add on this topic but I just wanted to say hi and apologize for my absence. I've been offline recently (my damned isp has this crazy idea I should pay them for their services) but I should be back soon. I've really been missing the conversation here, looking forward to more.
post #29 of 42
I may be a complete moron when it comes to Last.fm, but is there a way to get it to play a full album through without having to constantly click "back" and load the next track manually?
post #30 of 42
I can't believe DaveB. defends Tango In The Night!
post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
I can't believe DaveB. defends Tango In The Night!
Definitely not in its entirety, but "Big Love," the title track, and even "Little Lies" are pretty good pop songs.
post #32 of 42
Thread Starter 
Enough talk about Stevie and Lyndsey. If you guys dug the first live at boston tea party, you should listen to the second disc, it's not as intense but contains a better version of Rattlesnake Shake.
post #33 of 42
Yeah, I'm at a loss for words how to describe this album. Reminds me of when I heard the Allman's Filmore East for the first time. And Peter Green's playing is killer. Better than Clapton & Page?

Why I'm thinking about it, was Mick Fleetwood up there with Baker, Bonham and Moon? I'm impressed.

(By the way, why not include the second disc as part of the selection? It's basically a whole album. Agree that's the cooler version of Rattlesnake Shake)
post #34 of 42
Thread Starter 
I guess I could but they were sold separately and not as a three disc set, otherwise I would've included the other three performances. It's kind of weird but the performances get progressively weaker as the series continues.

"World in Harmony" "Oh Well" and of course, a full uncut version of Rattlesnake Shake are the only reasons to listen to the second disc, Jeremy's faux elvis impressions are ok, the rest just seem to lack that spark.

I never got around to picking up the third disc.

I'd also rate Green's playing as being up there with the best of them, BB King actually rated him as "having the sweetest tone I ever heard, he was the only one who gave me the cold sweats", I honestly think he was the best blues player of his generation and it was a goddamn shame he fell victim to his inner demons and spent over half his life in mental institutions.
post #35 of 42
Oh I hate you Dragon Ma. You, like Spike, made me buy an album. Apocalypse is too great for me to ignore. I love successful fusion albums, and this one is aces.

So, after listening to Fleetwood Mac, I guess I'll delve further than just listen to their Greatest Hits. I liked thei pop sound, but I wan to dig further. Where do I start? From the beginning.
post #36 of 42
The more or less straight-ahead blues version of Mac is represented on Fleetwood Mac (obviously, not the album of the same name that featured Buckingham and Nicks) and Mr. Wonderful, though they were released kind of piecemeal in the States (much of the material turns up on the US release English Rose), and the odds and sods collection Pious Bird of Good Omen. I believe those have all been re-released with bonus material (though I haven't heard them). This period is also when they recorded the Blues Jam At Chess album that I alluded to upthread.

After that, they start to add more diverse elements to their blues, into a sound that's a bit reminiscent of the San Francisco bands of the era (Quicksliver, say) with the brilliant Then Play On. That's also the point at which Green's personal problems cause him to leave the band.

Kirwan and Spencer add a bit more vintage rock sound to the mix on Kiln House (which features the future Christine McVie on backing vocals; she had previously played keyboards on a few of the earlier albums, and now becomes a full member of the band).

At this point, Spencer up and leaves the band, and guitarist/singer Bob Welch is recruited. His version of the Mac releases a few albums that move closer to a middle of the road AOR sound (and there are personnel changes galore). Albums like Mystery to Me and Penguin aren't exactly bad, but they're pretty forgettable. Somewhat better are Bare Trees and Heroes Are Hard To Find.

Welch leaves, and it's after this that the modern Mac is born. You know the story from there.
post #37 of 42
Solid picks here. I was familiar with both groups before, but unfamiliar with these incarnations of said groups.

The Mahavishnu Orchestra album is pretty awesome (well they both are), and this is definitely one of the more interesting and successful attempts to fuse orchestral music with jazz (I'm having a hard time thinking of any specifically fusion albums that try this, but it pops up here and there in more traditional jazz settings). Listening to it piecemeal on last.fm was kind of frustrating (still can't figure out how to get that damn site to play an album through) so I'm definitely going to have to pick this up at the record store sometime soon. Definitely too good not to own.

As for the Fleetwood Mac album, color me flabbergasted. I was only really familiar with the group from their big 70s albums with Stevie Nicks (and my friend's dad's amusing feud with Mick Fleetwood over a stolen drum stool) and was really surprised to discover that they were a kick ass blues band. Are the studio albums in this style as good as this live set?

Good picks, always nice to discover sides of things you didn't know before.
post #38 of 42
Thread Starter 
Their first two LP's are straight chicago blues affairs, it's only on 'Then Play On' that they start to incorporate more rock influences.

Also recommended, although hit and miss, is their 'Live at the BBC' collection.
post #39 of 42
OK, on to Mahavishnu:

I remember hearing Inner Mounting Flame in dorm rooms a lot. It was always amazing to hear McLaughlin carpet-bombing us with his flying fingers, and Cobham’s drumming was almost unearthly in its precision. Along with Goodman and Laird, they’re among the most talented musicians that fusion ever produced. But ten minutes after it ended, I couldn’t have hummed any of the music to save my life. Which probably says more about me than about the music.

I hadn’t listened to Apocalypse before this project. I was puzzled by the listing of Tilson-Thomas and the LSO till I heard the first track, and figured this was McLaughlin’s movie-music album. And, really, quite a bit of Apocalypse would make an interesting film score for something… well, apocalyptic (It would probably make the next Roland Emmerich film more interesting).

But beyond its serviceability for the cinema, I don’t find this album even as engaging as earlier Mahavishnu (which, as I say, never engaged me all that much in the first place). Walden’s a more interesting composer than he is a drummer (I think the album might have benefited from more compositional input from him), and while he never puts a foot wrong, neither does he ever seem to be the defining instrument that pulls everything back from the brink at the last moment (which was sort of Cobham’s specialty). And Jerry Goodman was a better partner for McLaughlin than Ponty, who seems to be stepping on the bandleader’s toes here and there. Gayle Moran’s vocals are lovely, floating above the music, but the hippie-dippie disposability of the lyrics makes me wonder what else the band might have done with the time and energy invested in them (maybe it was a favor to Moran’s mentor and future husband, Chick Corea,). And imagine my disappointment when “Hymn to Him” turned out not to be the song of the same name from My Fair Lady: I’d love to have heard these guys take a workout on a few standards of that ilk (I forget which album it is, but I know I have a stunning McLaughlin version of "Stella By Starlight" somewhere).

I certainly admire the ferocity of much of the playing on this album, and George Martin’s production is impeccable. But it never moves me; it feels like the music is speaking at me, not to me. Sadly, I have to conclude that my having gone this long without hearing Apocalypse wasn’t a big hole in my life. But I thank Dragon Ma for giving me the impetus to check it out.
post #40 of 42
Thread Starter 
You have a point about MO not really being about making music that's hummable, I guess that wasn't their intent. It's funny you should compare Goodman and Ponty as Ponty was McLaughlin's first choice for the group.

I do agree that Apocalypse sounds like McLaughlin doing a soundtrack and yes, Moran provides pretty vocals but little else. I really like to listen to the album while jogging, it provides such a great musical soundscape to listen to while jogging at night.

Some of the titles do sound ridiculously silly, 'Vision is a naked sword' 'Smile of the beyond', they sound like something a prog-rock band would come up with but it all comes back to McLaughlin's compositions which meld classical and heavy rock in such a spectacular way. 'Vision...' is probably torture for anyone who finds 14 minute instrumentals indescribably boring but that opening really strikes a good balance between the orchestra and the band. When the strings kick in after 5 minutes it's almost glorious waiting for the band to wander back in and jam for abit. Wings of Karma has such a great middle eastern feel and Hymn to Him just flows along, the strings and the band mixing nicely, it never feels like they're falling over each other, when those strings kick in with the band after 13 minutes, man, it sounds really fucking epic. The first thing that came to mind when I listened to this was, holy shit, this sounds perfect for a mad max film.

I can understand how it didn't move you, I think there's a distance in McLaughlin's compositions, nicely composed and expertly performed but only appreciated for technical aspects.
post #41 of 42
OK, I listened to both of these albums a couple of times yesterday.

Fleetwood Mac: Absolutely LOVE it. I've never heard any music from THIS incarnation of the band, and I'm pretty blown away. 'Only You' was the real grabber for me, but I liked the whole thing. I'm going to have some fun digging more deeply into this era of the band.

Mahavishnu Orchestra: Like it, but don't love it. My reaction is pretty much the same as Jeb's, as I was pretty used to the more flamboyant stuff. I suspect that it will really grow on me over time, however. For fusion, I still prefer Return to Forever and Al Di Meola.

Great picks, Dragon. The Fleetwood Mac, in particular was a bit of a revelation.
post #42 of 42
Thread Starter 
Holy shit, Peter Green's bass solo near the end of Green Manalishi is just badass. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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