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Large Hadron Collider being sabotaged: by it's own future!

post #1 of 50
10/17/09 at 6:14am
Thread Starter 
Righteous:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/sc...3lhc.html?_r=1
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post #2 of 50
10/17/09 at 7:10am
If only this turns out to be true. It would be the single best thing to happen in the history of the universe.
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post #3 of 50
10/17/09 at 7:29am
What a cake-ass cop-out. The goddamned Higgs-Boson is a fucking joke. It's a number that got thrown into the re-normalized equations describing the complete particle theory because it didn't work without that number. Therefore,the particle represented by that number must exist. Even though the only reason that number is there is to balance the numbers, not because there is any sort of evidence or conceptual framework suggesting it should be there. Instead of admitting modern particle theory (the most accurate scientific theory ever verified!) is built on a house of bullshit cards, we keep banging away trying to prove this fucking thing is there because it has to be there for the equations to work.
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post #4 of 50
10/17/09 at 8:57am


Oh, Higgs Boson! You're such a scamp!
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post #5 of 50
10/17/09 at 11:28am
You never know, though; they mathematically "proved" the existence of Pluto long before anyone actually saw it, based on the gravitational behavior of the other planets.
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post #6 of 50
10/17/09 at 2:12pm
This kind of fatalism is absurd.
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post #7 of 50
10/17/09 at 3:39pm
I thought they already found the particle that gives the universe mass in the white cream filling of Twinkies.
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post #8 of 50
10/17/09 at 3:46pm
Seems like a giant "we fucked up, this thing is so complex that we can't run it without destroying the thing, so I'll create a theory and cash in on my research money and call it a career" paper.
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post #9 of 50
10/17/09 at 3:48pm
The LHC scares the bejeesus out of me.... Why can't they just shut it down?
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post #10 of 50
10/17/09 at 5:24pm
They should just go ahead and change its name to "The Arrowhead Project" already.
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post #11 of 50
10/19/09 at 3:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg View Post
You never know, though; they mathematically "proved" the existence of Pluto long before anyone actually saw it, based on the gravitational behavior of the other planets.
And I seem to remember that several parts of the periodic table were filled that way. "Hey, by this theory there's space between element A and element C in the periodic table. Maybe there's one we haven't found yet?" And sure enough they did. Anyway, it would be pretty unscientific to discard a hypothesis without testing.
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post #12 of 50
10/27/09 at 2:28pm
And now they're going to fucking test that crazy theory!

Link deleted because it was the very same link from the first post.

Fucking awesome.

EDIT: I'm an idiot.
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post #13 of 50
10/27/09 at 2:41pm
I love science so much. I want to hug science.

Not the 'let's try to make a cure for baldness' product driven nonsense, although it has its uses. I'm talking about the time travelling, teleporting, dimension hoping kind. The one that might produce stuff abhorrent to the fucking nature of the universe. I hope when the world ends it will be from something awesome like that not some banal nonsense like an asteroid.
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post #14 of 50
10/27/09 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
And now they're going to fucking test that crazy theory!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...L&type=science
Same article is in the first post in this thread.
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post #15 of 50
10/27/09 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alobek View Post
Same article is in the first post in this thread.
God dammit, im such an idiot.
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post #16 of 50
10/27/09 at 2:55pm
EDIT: Wow, then that happened.
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post #17 of 50
11/20/09 at 4:59pm
Uh oh, they're firing beams. BEAMS!

http://en.rian.ru/science/20091120/156923128.html
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post #18 of 50
11/20/09 at 10:17pm
I know I should read this article again, at the risk of revealing myself to be a total idiot...

Is the theory that there's actually an intelligence at work that's sabotaging the machine? Wouldn't that be a terribly inefficient way of stopping this from happening for something that has such ability? The equivalent of the movie where the guy goes back in time right before the bad guy sets off the bomb instead of going back earlier to make sure he never even possesses it, or whatever? What about the idea that the only universes left are the ones where the machine never worked? Too sci-fi channel?

And can somebody explain the "card trick" thing? There's a Father Guido Sarducci joke in there somewhere.
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post #19 of 50
11/20/09 at 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
I know I should read this article again, at the risk of revealing myself to be a total idiot...

Is the theory that there's actually an intelligence at work that's sabotaging the machine? Wouldn't that be a terribly inefficient way of stopping this from happening for something that has such ability? The equivalent of the movie where the guy goes back in time right before the bad guy sets off the bomb instead of going back earlier to make sure he never even possesses it, or whatever? What about the idea that the only universes left are the ones where the machine never worked? Too sci-fi channel?

And can somebody explain the "card trick" thing? There's a Father Guido Sarducci joke in there somewhere.
I think the implication is there is a kind of "action-reaction" thing going. Where the reaction in the future goes back in time to stop/nullify the action that created it.
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post #20 of 50
11/21/09 at 12:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I think the implication is there is a kind of "action-reaction" thing going. Where the reaction in the future goes back in time to stop/nullify the action that created it.
Isn't that getting very close to science suggesting theres some form of independant sentient intelligence in charge of these matters then?

I honestly don't know if I'm smart enough to get my head around this and have it make sense to me - and that makes me sad.
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post #21 of 50
11/21/09 at 1:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Isn't that getting very close to science suggesting theres some form of independant sentient intelligence in charge of these matters then?

I honestly don't know if I'm smart enough to get my head around this and have it make sense to me - and that makes me sad.
Check out John Gribbin's "Schroedinger's Cats" books, they definitely suggest something like that... at least to me they did. It's been several years but I seem to recall something about quantum rules applying to our macro-universe and as such implying some sort of consciousness is required to complete the wave-function of the universe.

It's definitely something to think about.
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post #22 of 50
11/21/09 at 1:27am
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post #23 of 50
11/21/09 at 2:47am
So they spent something in the neighborhood of a Trazillion dollars on a plot device from Quantum Leap? I don't know whether that's depressing or staggeringly awesome.
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post #24 of 50
11/21/09 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Isn't that getting very close to science suggesting theres some form of independant sentient intelligence in charge of these matters then?
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post #25 of 50
11/21/09 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Isn't that getting very close to science suggesting theres some form of independant sentient intelligence in charge of these matters then?

I honestly don't know if I'm smart enough to get my head around this and have it make sense to me - and that makes me sad.
I don't think it does. It's simply a local system going out of balance, and getting back into balance again.

Of course that has always been a key argument for the existence of God: the universe is so complex, yet everything seems to run so well together, that is must be planned. The thing is, we impose order on that complexity: it may not actually be there. Like staring at a group of stars and saying "see, that group of stars is the Big Dipper". Useful as a practical navigation guide, but are those stars really forming a giant household appliance?
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post #26 of 50
11/22/09 at 1:27am
"What happens to the Collider in the future? Does it become an asshole or something?"
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post #27 of 50
11/22/09 at 2:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I don't think it does. It's simply a local system going out of balance, and getting back into balance again.

Of course that has always been a key argument for the existence of God: the universe is so complex, yet everything seems to run so well together, that is must be planned. The thing is, we impose order on that complexity: it may not actually be there. Like staring at a group of stars and saying "see, that group of stars is the Big Dipper". Useful as a practical navigation guide, but are those stars really forming a giant household appliance?
Totally fair enough - maybe it's just the wording of the explanation that's throwing me, the idea of the universe correcting itself in a cause and effect kind of way, but that correction seemingly moving backwards in time from the future rather than in the usual way just seems to be bending my head a bit.

I should go read some Hawkings maybe.
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post #28 of 50
11/22/09 at 2:51am
Nah, you just need to get your news from better sources.

Quote:
The machine was heavily damaged when an electrical fault caused a tonne of liquid helium to leak into the tunnel just nine days after it was first launched in September last year.
We don't need to attribute to time-traveling wizards what can be accomplished by parts manufactured by the lowest bidder.
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post #29 of 50
11/22/09 at 3:00am

Maybe we should stop looking?

Maybe we should stop looking for these particles. Did no-one learn anything from the series finale of Lexx?*

*rhetorical question
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post #30 of 50
11/22/09 at 6:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheokhu View Post
Nah, you just need to get your news from better sources.



We don't need to attribute to time-traveling wizards what can be accomplished by parts manufactured by the lowest bidder.
You have sorta missed the point of the article. it's not saying that magical wizards or alien intelligence is behind the problems, it's that the very nature of what they are trying to do is impossible and reality itself is getting in the way, which is manifesting as things like what you have linked, or, I don't know, other whacky and slightly wtf events.


But all is good! We can check out the progress of it live!
http://www.lhcfeed.com/
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post #31 of 50
11/22/09 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
You have sorta missed the point of the article. it's not saying that magical wizards or alien intelligence is behind the problems, it's that the very nature of what they are trying to do is impossible and reality itself is getting in the way/[/url]
What does that mean, though? Imagine I have the same grasp of this stuff as an average sixth grader... because I do. If it's impossible why does that have to manifest in weird occurrences and malfunctions? Why does anything have to get in the way of an impossibility? Why wouldn't it just not do what they think it's going to do? The elevator doesn't have to be out of order for me not to be able to fly when I jump off the roof.
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post #32 of 50
11/22/09 at 7:36am
Thread Starter 
Um ok. I just started the Sunday Night Drinking Fest but I'll do my best.
The idea is that universe is a huge system and has it's own safety mechanisms, if you like. A higgs particle is something the universe isn't going to be cool with being produced in the manner the LHC is trying to, and will cause a massive amount of destruction, which isn't cool. So, this safety valve goes off and stops the big boo from happening before it actually can, like a safety switch in your fuse box: before your house(universe) can blow out it neutralizes the threat.
The LHC, these boffins are theorizing, is shutting down all over the place because it's reacting to the Higgs particle being created.

I think.
It's crucial to think of time in a non linear fashion for this one, ultimately. Time is reversing itself in order to stop the threat to itself.
Newtony!
I'm off to keep drinking!
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post #33 of 50
11/22/09 at 7:52am
Thread Starter 
I shouldn't have used the word impossible before. Just way out and slightly, potentially, damaging.
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post #34 of 50
11/22/09 at 1:35pm
I love that you guys are trying to make sense of this asinine theory. This is the kind of science that gives science a bad name, just ignore it, it's not true.
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post #35 of 50
11/22/09 at 4:37pm
I just needed a place to post about beams.
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post #36 of 50
11/22/09 at 6:03pm

Well, in a sense this is true.

It may well be that the LHC is being stopped by the future, not just for it but all construction projects if "lowest bid accepted" and "no bid contracts" go on to be the universal norm in the future.

There'll be a never ending epidemic of construction work collapsing then. Oh wait, aren't we almost there already?
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post #37 of 50
11/22/09 at 7:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
I love that you guys are trying to make sense of this asinine theory. This is the kind of science that gives science a bad name, just ignore it, it's not true.

Sure!
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post #38 of 50
11/22/09 at 7:22pm
I wasn't missing the point. I was making fun of it. Two assholes with degrees and a taste for new-age fantasy have you speculating about time travel over a case of bad wiring. It's as though the real science being conducted with the Collider isn't fascinating enough for them.
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post #39 of 50
11/22/09 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 
The word speculating is probably the most important part of your post.
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post #40 of 50
11/22/09 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
The word speculating is probably the most important part of your post.
Speculating about experiment triggered fatalism is all well and good but let's not pretend it's science, or that this theory is scientific, or is in any way reflective of what is nevertheless an incredibly strange and complex universe.

The "Oh my head hurts, I'm just not smart enough for this physics stuff" is a joke, because this is not physics. That's all we're sayin.
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post #41 of 50
11/22/09 at 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
The "Oh my head hurts, I'm just not smart enough for this physics stuff" is a joke, because this is not physics. That's all we're sayin.
Take away my admittedly unnecessary snark and that's all I was sayin'.

Now to something upon which we can all hopefully agree: We need to teach the Chewers living outside the United States to use the glorious phrase "I'm sayin."
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post #42 of 50
11/22/09 at 11:00pm
Thread Starter 
I don't recall anyone actually saying THIS IS REAL OMG WE ARE DOOMED!
Did you look at that live LHC cam link I posted?
No offense to either of you two guys but you need to unclench a little before posting. Pointless snark is boring.
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post #43 of 50
11/23/09 at 3:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matches View Post
I just needed a place to post about beams.
"See the TURTLE of enormous girth! On his shell he holds the Earth."

The creators of this collider are just "breakers" from North Central Positronics. I knew it!
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post #44 of 50
11/24/09 at 1:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matches View Post
I just needed a place to post about beams.


There's always the drinking threads, Matches.
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post #45 of 50
11/24/09 at 2:13am
Thread Starter 
This is a drinking thread.
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post #46 of 50
11/30/09 at 11:32am
The LHC just broke the record for accelerating particles with 1.18TeV (trillion electron volts) of energy. It was previously at 0.98TeV and they're planning on going up to 7TeV of collision energy. These are big bang numbers. Awesome.
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post #47 of 50
11/30/09 at 11:46am
Hope they're not using stock cooling.
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post #48 of 50
11/30/09 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
The LHC just broke the record for accelerating particles with 1.18TeV (trillion electron volts) of energy. It was previously at 0.98TeV and they're planning on going up to 7TeV of collision energy. These are big bang numbers. Awesome.
How soon till we can get cars fueled by these babies? And would it make this commercial a reality, only with more screaming and implosions? I just want to drive a car called "The Big Bang".
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post #49 of 50
11/30/09 at 5:47pm
I'd just like to be in the control room to push the red button and yell out, "fire protons!".
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post #50 of 50
12/2/09 at 5:28am
I'd bet good money that in a place filled with epic nerds this was almost certainly said at least once.
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