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"15 Things Every American Can Do Right Now"

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
I'm going to try to check off as much of these as I can.

From Michael Moore:

Friends,

It's the #1 question I'm constantly asked after people see my movie: "OK -- so NOW what can I DO?!"

You want something to do? Well, you've come to the right place! 'Cause I got 15 things you and I can do right now to fight back and try to fix this very broken system.

Here they are:

FIVE THINGS WE DEMAND THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS DO IMMEDIATELY:

1. Declare a moratorium on all home evictions. Not one more family should be thrown out of their home. The banks must adjust their monthly mortgage payments to be in line with what people's homes are now truly worth -- and what they can afford. Also, it must be stated by law: If you lose your job, you cannot be tossed out of your home.

2. Congress must join the civilized world and expand Medicare For All Americans. A single, nonprofit source must run a universal health care system that covers everyone. Medical bills are now the #1 cause of bankruptcies and evictions in this country. Medicare For All will end this misery. The bill to make this happen is H.R. 3200 (but only with Rep. Anthony Weiner's amendment). You must call AND write your members of Congress and demand its passage, no compromises allowed.

3. Demand publicly-funded elections and a prohibition on elected officials leaving office and becoming lobbyists. Yes, those very members of Congress who solicit and receive millions of dollars from wealthy interests must vote to remove ALL money from our electoral and legislative process. Tell your members of Congress they must support campaign finance bill H.R.1826.

4. Each of the 50 states must create a state-owned public bank like they have in North Dakota. Then congress MUST reinstate all the strict pre-Reagan regulations on all commercial banks, investment firms, insurance companies -- and all the other industries that have been savaged by deregulation: Airlines, the food industry, pharmaceutical companies -- you name it. If a company's primary motive to exist is to make a profit, then it needs a set of stringent rules to live by -- and the first rule is "Do no harm." The second rule: The question must always be asked -- "Is this for the common good?" (Click here for some info about the state-owned Bank of North Dakota.)

5. Save this fragile planet and declare that all the energy resources above and beneath the ground are owned collectively by all of us. Just like they do it in Sarah Palin's socialist Alaska. We only have a few decades of oil left. The public must be the owners and landlords of the natural resources and energy that exists within our borders or we will descend further into corporate anarchy. And when it comes to burning fossil fuels to transport ourselves, we must cease using the internal combustion engine and instruct our auto/transportation companies to rehire our skilled workforce and build mass transit (clean buses, light rail, subways, bullet trains, etc.) and new cars that don't contribute to climate change. (For more on this, here's a proposal I wrote in December.) Demand that General Motors' de facto chairman, Barack Obama, issue a JFK man-on-the-moon-style challenge to turn our country into a nation of trains and buses and subways. For Pete's sake, people, we were the ones who invented (or perfected) these damn things in the first place!!

FIVE THINGS WE CAN DO TO MAKE CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT LISTEN TO US:

1. Each of us must get into the daily habit of taking 5 minutes to make four brief calls: One to the President (202-456-1414), one to your Congressperson (202-224-3121) and one to each of your two Senators (202-224-3121). To find out who represents you, click here. Take just one minute on each of these calls to let them know how you expect them to vote on a particular issue. Let them know you will have no hesitation voting for a primary opponent -- or even a candidate from another party -- if they don't do our bidding. Trust me, they will listen. If you have another five minutes, click here to send them each an email. And if you really want to drop an anvil on them, send them a snail mail letter!

2. Take over your local Democratic Party. Remember how much fun you had with all those friends and neighbors working together to get Barack Obama elected? YOU DID THE IMPOSSIBLE. It's time to re-up! Get everyone back together and go to the monthly meeting of your town or county Democratic Party -- and become the majority that runs it! There will not be many in attendance and they will either be happy or in shock that you and the Obama Revolution have entered the room looking like you mean business. President Obama's agenda will never happen without mass grass roots action -- and he won't feel encouraged to do the right thing if no one has his back, whether it's to stand with him, or push him in the right direction. When you all become the local Democratic Party, send me a photo of the group and I'll post it on my website.

3. Recruit someone to run for office who can win in your local elections next year -- or, better yet, consider running for office yourself! You don't have to settle for the incumbent who always expects to win. You can be our next representative! Don't believe it can happen? Check out these examples of regular citizens who got elected: State Senator Deb Simpson, California State Assemblyman Isadore Hall, Tempe, Arizona City Councilman Corey Woods, Wisconsin State Assemblyman Chris Danou, and Washington State Representative Larry Seaquist. The list goes on and on -- and you should be on it!

4. Show up. Picket the local branch of a big bank that took the bailout money. Hold vigils and marches. Consider civil disobedience. Those town hall meetings are open to you, too (and there's more of us than there are of them!). Make some noise, have some fun, get on the local news. Place "Capitalism Did This" signs on empty foreclosed homes, closed down businesses, crumbling schools and infrastructure. (You can download them from my website.)

5. Start your own media. You. Just you (or you and a couple friends). The mainstream media is owned by corporate America and, with few exceptions, it will never tell the whole truth -- so you have to do it! Start a blog! Start a website of real local news (here's an example: The Michigan Messenger). Tweet your friends and use Facebook to let them know what they need to do politically. The daily papers are dying. If you don't fill that void, who will?

FIVE THINGS WE SHOULD DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR LOVED ONES UNTIL WE GET THROUGH THIS MESS:

1. Take your money out of your bank if it took bailout money and place it in a locally-owned bank or, preferably, a credit union.

2. Get rid of all your credit cards but one -- the kind where you have to pay up at the end of the month or you lose your card.

3. Do not invest in the stock market. If you have any extra cash, put it away in a savings account or, if you can, pay down on your mortgage so you can own your home as soon as possible. You can also buy very safe government savings bonds or T-bills. Or just buy your mother some flowers.

4. Unionize your workplace so that you and your coworkers have a say in how your business is run. Here's how to do it (more info here). Nothing is more American than democracy, and democracy shouldn't be checked at the door when you enter your workplace. Another way to Americanize your workplace is to turn your business into a worker-owned cooperative. You are not a wage slave. You are a free person, and you giving up eight hours of your life every day to someone else is to be properly compensated and respected.

5. Take care of yourself and your family. Sorry to go all Oprah on you, but she's right: Find a place of peace in your life and make the choice to be around people who are not full of negativity and cynicism. Look for those who nurture and love. Turn off the TV and the Blackberry and go for a 30-minute walk every day. Eat fruits and vegetables and cut down on anything that has sugar, high fructose corn syrup, white flour or too much sodium (salt) in it (and, as Michael Pollan says, "Eat (real) food, not too much, mostly plants"). Get seven hours of sleep each night and take the time to read a book a month. I know this sounds like I've turned into your grandma, but, dammit, take a good hard look at Granny -- she's fit, she's rested and she knows the names of both of her U.S. Senators without having to Google them. We might do well to listen to her. If we don't put our own "oxygen mask" on first (as they say on the airplane), we will be of no use to the rest of the nation in enacting any of this action plan!

I'm sure there are many other ideas you can come up with on how we can build this movement. Get creative. Think outside the politics-as-usual box. BE SUBVERSIVE! Think of that local action no one else has tried. Behave as if your life depended on it. Be bold! Try doing something with reckless abandon. It may just liberate you and your community and your nation.

And when you act, send me your stories, your photos and your video -- and be sure to post your ideas in the comments beneath this letter on my site so they can be shared with millions.

C'mon people -- we can do this! I expect nothing less of all of you, my true and trusted fellow travelers!

Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com
post #2 of 32
Quote:
4. Unionize your workplace so that you and your coworkers have a say in how your business is run. Here's how to do it (more info here). Nothing is more American than democracy, and democracy shouldn't be checked at the door when you enter your workplace. Another way to Americanize your workplace is to turn your business into a worker-owned cooperative. You are not a wage slave. You are a free person, and you giving up eight hours of your life every day to someone else is to be properly compensated and respected.
Yeah, good luck with that.
post #3 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

1. Declare a moratorium on all home evictions. Not one more family should be thrown out of their home. The banks must adjust their monthly mortgage payments to be in line with what people's homes are now truly worth -- and what they can afford. Also, it must be stated by law: If you lose your job, you cannot be tossed out of your home.

4. Show up. Picket the local branch of a big bank that took the bailout money. Hold vigils and marches. Consider civil disobedience. Those town hall meetings are open to you, too (and there's more of us than there are of them!). Make some noise, have some fun, get on the local news. Place "Capitalism Did This" signs on empty foreclosed homes, closed down businesses, crumbling schools and infrastructure. (You can download them from my website.)

3. Do not invest in the stock market. If you have any extra cash, put it away in a savings account or, if you can, pay down on your mortgage so you can own your home as soon as possible. You can also buy very safe government savings bonds or T-bills. Or just buy your mother some flowers.

4. Unionize your workplace so that you and your coworkers have a say in how your business is run. Here's how to do it (more info here). Nothing is more American than democracy, and democracy shouldn't be checked at the door when you enter your workplace. Another way to Americanize your workplace is to turn your business into a worker-owned cooperative. You are not a wage slave. You are a free person, and you giving up eight hours of your life every day to someone else is to be properly compensated and respected.

lol

The rest of em I (for the most part) agree with.
post #4 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
4. Show up. Picket the local branch of a big bank that took the bailout money. Consider civil disobedience.


Protesting is not enough, we must take radical action against the fascists in our own country. Bring it down, BRING IT ALL DOWN!
post #5 of 32
Good luck with that.
post #6 of 32
The 'don't invest in the stock market' one is the biggest WTF on the list. If everybody stopped investing in the stock market, we'd have an economic collapse that would make the Depression look like boom times. And just what does he think banks do with the money in the savings accounts? Interest doesn't just magically come out of nowhere and deposit itself.

Add in the 'unionise at your job' and it's just ridiculously contradictory. 'Don't invest in stocks, thus reducing the value of the company you work for and negatively impacting its liquidity, making it harder for it to continue to pay it's employees. AND demand to be paid more! Because you're a working American, and you earned it!'
post #7 of 32
Thread Starter 
I imagine he's not saying that everybody shouldn't invest in the stock market; he's saying the 'little guy' should not subject what little savings he or she does have to the vagaries of Wall Street insiders who generally find ways to profit even as non-insider small investors take a bath.
post #8 of 32
Yeah, that makes sense to me. People below a certain financial bracket probably shouldn't get involved in the stock market. In fact, I personally think the whole stock market system needs an overhaul--as we've seen, it's pretty damaging to link the economy to what is essentially gambling, and it seems to take the emphasis off of true production and into imaginary money.

To me the biggest WTF comes from Michael Moore giving us tips on healthy eating.
post #9 of 32
Extort your employer!


Moore never fails to amaze me.
post #10 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
I imagine he's not saying that everybody shouldn't invest in the stock market; he's saying the 'little guy' should not subject what little savings he or she does have to the vagaries of Wall Street insiders who generally find ways to profit even as non-insider small investors take a bath.



Its still horrible advice. Im sure he was probably part of the crowd who told everyone to put their 401(k)s in cash earlier in the year.

Even with the past 2 years, the market still provides the best average rate of return by far compared to any other means of saving...especially when it comes to long term retirement savings.
post #11 of 32
Ummm...could it be that the wealthier people who know how to play the market effectively are skewing the average away from the poorer people who take a bath when the market crashes?
post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
Ummm...could it be that the wealthier people who know how to play the market effectively are skewing the average away from the poorer people who take a bath when the market crashes?
I dont think so. Putting your money into a broad based S&P index fund in your 401k (which is a standard option) and leaving it alone still returns more than 8% per year on average over the past 20 years...even when you factor in 2007-2009.
post #13 of 32
The one that is the most suspect to me is the one about foreclosures/evictions. I still have a hard time having a lot of sympathy for people who willfully bought something that they couldn't afford.

I understand that some mortgages had really crappy terms and I'm fine with reduced interest rates and things like that but I feel like the lenders are getting really screwed if you start reducing the principal of the loan because the house is not worth what someone borrowed to buy it. It's not like the lender gets a special deal from the homeowner if the value increased.

A lot of my opinion on this would probably be coming from someone who doesn't own a house (and is hesitant to buy one because of the commitment and risk associated with it and the fact that I like the freedom to move whenever).
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I dont think so. Putting your money into a broad based S&P index fund in your 401k (which is a standard option) and leaving it alone still returns more than 8% per year on average over the past 20 years...even when you factor in 2007-2009.
Well, I'm sure that will be comforting to all the people who lost their 401(k)s during that one freakish glitch in the otherwise sterling record of the stock market.

I really don't think talking about the "average" is going to yield any useful results here. The game has different rules depending on where you're coming from, and for people who are fretting about making the payment on their bills or living paycheck to paycheck, Moore's advice is pretty good. If you're stable and well-established and can make the time to manage your portfolio (or pay someone to do it for you) then sure, invest. I stand by what I said about the market needing to be overhauled and more tightly regulated, though.
post #15 of 32
If there's one thing I really can't stand about Moore. Is the idea that the person behind the counter or the receptionist has anything to do with the major corporate policies. Why in the hell do I want to protest the local bank branch where there are people trying to their jobs for effectively nine bucks an hour?
post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 
Don'tEatNachos, 60% of all subprime loans were the result of bank fraud. Also, the leading reason for foreclosure (more than 50% of foreclosures, I don't recall the exact percentage) are the result of health care cost-related bankrupties.

There's a very convenient right wing talking point that the foreclosure crisis has to do with people spending more than they could afford. While there is an element of that, the main story--one the MSM is loathe to report--is that rampant predatory lenders steered people towards dangerous loans, preying on the elderly who owned their homes outright and minorities.

I know it's tempting to blame the victim, but the fact of the matter is that our entire economy--the entirety of the middle and working classes--are the victims. The banks that created all these fraudulent loans to feed their insatiable greed for credit-based derivatives are now making out like bandits by foreclosing on the houses and then flipping them for enormous profits. But what it's doing to neighborhoods, and the amount of people it's putting on the streets, is endangering all of us.

I hope I made a sound case. I probably didn't, but Capitalism: A Love Story illustrates the entire story from the beginning to end in very easy to understand terms, so I highly recommend you see it.
post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
The one that is the most suspect to me is the one about foreclosures/evictions. I still have a hard time having a lot of sympathy for people who willfully bought something that they couldn't afford.

I understand that some mortgages had really crappy terms and I'm fine with reduced interest rates and things like that but I feel like the lenders are getting really screwed if you start reducing the principal of the loan because the house is not worth what someone borrowed to buy it. It's not like the lender gets a special deal from the homeowner if the value increased.

A lot of my opinion on this would probably be coming from someone who doesn't own a house (and is hesitant to buy one because of the commitment and risk associated with it and the fact that I like the freedom to move whenever).
I understand your skepticism here.

As a homeowner (who is in good shape mortgage-wise) and someone who worked in the mortgage business for much of the last four years (during the downfall), I can tell you that many of the lenders crying foul over this are just as responsible as the buyers. The tactics we were asked to employ when it came to the purchase/refinance of someone's home were suspect at best, borderline criminal at worst. Magic calculators, points on points, etc., were all tactics co-workers engaged in in order to get a deal closed. And I know our firm wasn't the only one in the country encouraging its employees to do so.

It's pretty easy to make a house look affordable to someone if you put the right spin on the numbers, and people aren't educated enough about their own finances most of the time to know not to trust the numbers.

Based on what I've seen, strict regulation is needed. Because just like in any other money-centered business, people will always try to find the loopholes.
post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Its still horrible advice. Im sure he was probably part of the crowd who told everyone to put their 401(k)s in cash earlier in the year.

Even with the past 2 years, the market still provides the best average rate of return by far compared to any other means of saving...especially when it comes to long term retirement savings.
You sound like my accountant. But here's the thing: do the people who are told how "smart" it is to put one's retirement in mutual funds or whatever understand the risks? A lot of people lost 30% (or thereabouts) of their savings during the "crash"--do you think they understood how that could happen? Do you think they would have done better with that money had it been in other forms of savings accounts all that time? And what if--as people are predicting since zero laws have been passed to rein in risk-taking "masters of the universe" in the year since the "crash"--there's another, more catastrophic crash coming? There is still $500 trillion wrapped up in inscrutable derivatives and what goes up must ultimately come down.

The market expanded precipitously during this push to make every working and middle class American join the "investor" class, and at the top enormous rewards were reaped from that, but I have come to believe that blindly handing over your money to investors without having the wiggle room for risk is a bad idea (at least for me).
post #19 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
Well, I'm sure that will be comforting to all the people who lost their 401(k)s during that one freakish glitch in the otherwise sterling record of the stock market.
Nobody mentioned a "sterling record." In fact, the point was that even though weve been through a rough 2 years, the market still makes people more money than any of the alternatives (unless you listened to folks like Moore, et al earlier in the year and cashed out of the market, thereby missing the 60% gain weve had since March). Yes, every 5 or 6 years youll have to stock up on rolaids and pepto in order to deal with the inevitable corrections, but that doesnt change the fact that...unless you want to rely on the negative rate of return social security gets you...this is the best way to go when saving for your retirement.

Quote:
I really don't think talking about the "average" is going to yield any useful results here. The game has different rules depending on where you're coming from, and for people who are fretting about making the payment on their bills or living paycheck to paycheck, Moore's advice is pretty good. If you're stable and well-established and can make the time to manage your portfolio (or pay someone to do it for you) then sure, invest.
What available alternative would you suggest then instead of a 401k?

Quote:
I stand by what I said about the market needing to be overhauled and more tightly regulated, though.
Fair enough, but I wasnt referring to the need (or lack thereof) of an overhaul, regulations, etc. My point was that when you consider the options available to Americans, investing in the market is still the best course of action for long term saving.
post #20 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatatjoes View Post
I understand your skepticism here.

As a homeowner (who is in good shape mortgage-wise) and someone who worked in the mortgage business for much of the last four years (during the downfall), I can tell you that many of the lenders crying foul over this are just as responsible as the buyers. The tactics we were asked to employ when it came to the purchase/refinance of someone's home were suspect at best, borderline criminal at worst. Magic calculators, points on points, etc., were all tactics co-workers engaged in in order to get a deal closed. And I know our firm wasn't the only one in the country encouraging its employees to do so.

It's pretty easy to make a house look affordable to someone if you put the right spin on the numbers, and people aren't educated enough about their own finances most of the time to know not to trust the numbers.

Based on what I've seen, strict regulation is needed. Because just like in any other money-centered business, people will always try to find the loopholes.
Beautifully stated, eatatjoes. It's also worth noting that Eliot Spitzer and attorneys general from all 50 states tried to put a stop to all the predatory lending going on way back in 2002 but the states were shut down by the Bush Administration, using an obscure law, because Wall Street needed these loans to keep coming, the more fraudulent the better.
post #21 of 32
Most financial planners will encourage their clients to reduce the risk of volatility as they get older. As I understand it, you should be moving your money into ever more stable but lower yielding investments as you get closer to actually using it.

ETA: eatatjoes/yt, I was not aware that intentionally misleading claims were so rampant. Is there a reason that there isn't an organization that is helping consumers recoup through legal action? Were their actions not illegal just shady? Do you have links to research/articles that talk about this?
post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
You sound like my accountant.
But I thought you didnt like your accountant.

Quote:
But here's the thing: do the people who are told how "smart" it is to put one's retirement in mutual funds or whatever understand the risks? A lot of people lost 30% (or thereabouts) of their savings during the "crash"--do you think they understood how that could happen?
They very well may not have...and if they were told by someone in my line of work (lets call him a vampire) to invest in the market and the risks were not explained in detail, then the vampire faces heavy fines and potential banishment from the industry (not his company, but the industry as a whole) the moment the customer complains. To the SEC and FINRA, the vampire is always guilty unless he can prove otherwise, which is why most conversations these days between advisors and clients is recorded electronically or documented by a third party.

And yes a lot of people lost upwards of 50% during the recent debacle, but my aforementioned point was that if they had left everything exactly the way it was, they would have made 3/4 of their losses back since March. People like Michael Moore are giving broad investment advice when they have absolutely no business doing so, and any of the unfortunate folks who lost a significant portion of their savings are in a much worse position now than if they had ignored his advice. Thats all I was saying.
Quote:
Do you think they would have done better with that money had it been in other forms of savings accounts all that time?
Thats kind of a silly question.

Quote:
The market expanded precipitously during this push to make every working and middle class American join the "investor" class, and at the top enormous rewards were reaped from that, but I have come to believe that blindly handing over your money to investors without having the wiggle room for risk is a bad idea (at least for me).

I agree completely that blindly handing over your money without understanding the risk is a bad idea. You should either have someone explain all the risks too you (which you can probably do free of charge at any bank) or simply Google "investing risks." I dont agree with the insinuation, though, that only those on the top made out. If youre a 50 year old blue collar worker whos been investing in your retirement plan since you were 25, the fact of the matter is that youve still made 8.5% every year on your money. The super rich made out better, but theres room for us little guys as well.
post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Nobody mentioned a "sterling record." In fact, the point was that even though weve been through a rough 2 years, the market still makes people more money than any of the alternatives (unless you listened to folks like Moore, et al earlier in the year and cashed out of the market, thereby missing the 60% gain weve had since March). Yes, every 5 or 6 years youll have to stock up on rolaids and pepto in order to deal with the inevitable corrections, but that doesnt change the fact that...unless you want to rely on the negative rate of return social security gets you...this is the best way to go when saving for your retirement.
But again, you're talking about averages and statistical gains, when the rules change depending on when you're standing. If you're a major investor, a market fluctuation might lose you a bit of money. If you're Joe Homeowner, it could wipe you out. In that context, staying out of the stock market makes a certain amount of sense for these people. As I said, if you know what you're doing and have some margin of error, absolutely, play the market. But treating it like it's a default option--"getting a 401(k) and leaving it alone"--strikes me as dangerous.

When Krusty the Klown says "I'm personally going to spit in every 50th burger" and Homer says "I like those odds!" he's technically correct, but why not just not eat at Krustyburger's? It seems like people are being encouraged to irresponsibly play the market. I'm not against 401(k)s, but you should know damn well what you're getting into--and some people just don't have the time or financial sense to understand this stuff. If you're going to invest, do it wisely, and failing all that, there's always the crazy, old-fashioned notion of socking away your money in life savings.

You yourself seem to be propagating the idea that investing in the market is a must, which is the attitude I'm rejecting here. I don't *have* to do anything, and considering how little concern the people who got us into this mess seem to have for those at the bottom of the totem pole, I think we're well within our rights to be cautious.
post #24 of 32
I see what you mean and I dont disagree. Regarding simply socking money away in a bank account, I would say that if you make enough money to afford to save enough to the extent that you can live out the retirement you envision then more power to you. When my souless coworkers and I are faced with 65 year old widows with $5 million bucks who say they dont need more than $80,000 per year in income, we happily tell them to keep it in various FDIC insured savings accounts. Of course we usually key her car afterwards for wasting our time and denying us a commission check, but you get my point. If that scenario is available to you then theres no reason to do anything else.

I wasnt suggesting that investing in the market is a "must," rather that when we evaluate all the other options for long term savings that we have (especially from a tax advantage standpoint) it is still the best bang for the buck by far...especially if youre not in a position to save enough where a 2% rate of return in a bank account will be enough to get you to retirement.
post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post

ETA: eatatjoes/yt, I was not aware that intentionally misleading claims were so rampant. Is there a reason that there isn't an organization that is helping consumers recoup through legal action? Were their actions not illegal just shady? Do you have links to research/articles that talk about this?
First off, yt and I ending up on the same side of an issue is surely a sign of the coming apocalypse.

You're right, most of it wasn't illegal. It was finding ways around the current regulations (or lack thereof) and preying on people's ignorance.

For example, I've been in on numerous sit-downs with potential clients where the lending agent would try to overwhelm the customer with numbers and then show them a theoretical figure at the end that displayed a significant amount of savings. Savings that would only come to fruition if the individual managed to make a monthly payment of almost always twice what was shown on paper. Most folks would be completely confused by what was happening in front of them, but not speak up out of embarrassment/ignorance.

On the underwriting side, most of the deals that closed in the months leading up to the collapse took damn near heroic measures to get through underwriting. Stated income, adding loosely-related co-borrowers, you name it.

This kind of "magic calculator" work is done a lot, and there are regulations in place in a lot of lenders' policy manuals that are simply not followed. They aren't followed because no one is overseeing them but their superiors, who have just as much invested in that loan getting approved as they do.

So no, not necessarily illegal, but definitely loans that wouldn't have been made by a responsible institution. Which is probably why I didn't do much business in my last year-plus with the company.
post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
ETA: eatatjoes/yt, I was not aware that intentionally misleading claims were so rampant. Is there a reason that there isn't an organization that is helping consumers recoup through legal action? Were their actions not illegal just shady? Do you have links to research/articles that talk about this?
There is a reason: the banks are very powerful and therefore control our representatives by dangling carrots of campaign contributions and lobbying.

The mainstream media did not report this aspect of the crisis for the same reason as the above. The boards of the mainstream media are filled with people who are on the boards of the banks, and where profit is concerned, they don't $#!& where they eat.

And if you watch Fox News, you have to take it as a given that you're going to be either kept in the dark or mis-informed.

Here are some links:

Eliot Spitzer's Washington Post article about predatory lending and the Bush administration

"Fraud seen as a driver in wave of foreclosures" (this is one of many many many local news articles about mortgage fraud, though the subject can't get arrested on mainstream national news)

Among the overwhelming glut of white collar criminality, here's one case of charges filed.

"Health care costs main cause of personal bankruptcy, study finds"

All of this is documented in true first-person narratives in Capitalism: A Love Story, which you should see on the big screen while it's in theaters.
post #27 of 32
Thanks for the links, yt. I can offer only anecdotal support right now, as phones aren't very "cut-and-paste link" friendly.
post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
But I thought you didnt like your accountant.


They very well may not have...and if they were told by someone in my line of work (lets call him a vampire) to invest in the market and the risks were not explained in detail, then the vampire faces heavy fines and potential banishment from the industry (not his company, but the industry as a whole) the moment the customer complains. To the SEC and FINRA, the vampire is always guilty unless he can prove otherwise, which is why most conversations these days between advisors and clients is recorded electronically or documented by a third party.

And yes a lot of people lost upwards of 50% during the recent debacle, but my aforementioned point was that if they had left everything exactly the way it was, they would have made 3/4 of their losses back since March. People like Michael Moore are giving broad investment advice when they have absolutely no business doing so, and any of the unfortunate folks who lost a significant portion of their savings are in a much worse position now than if they had ignored his advice. Thats all I was saying.


Thats kind of a silly question.




I agree completely that blindly handing over your money without understanding the risk is a bad idea. You should either have someone explain all the risks too you (which you can probably do free of charge at any bank) or simply Google "investing risks." I dont agree with the insinuation, though, that only those on the top made out. If youre a 50 year old blue collar worker whos been investing in your retirement plan since you were 25, the fact of the matter is that youve still made 8.5% every year on your money. The super rich made out better, but theres room for us little guys as well.
The Closer, you're far more knowledgeable than I on the ins and outs of all this, so I defer to you on specifics. I'm talking broadly about risk and people snapping out of it and thinking realistically about what's best for them--it may not be investing. Yet we were all sold this bill of goods from the early '90s onwards and maybe it's great and maybe it's a sham, but in light of the derivatives debacle and lack of laws/regulations in the wake of same, I believe that for me personally--and maybe for a lot of others--putting their money into mechanisms they have no comfort level or true understanding of is a bad idea. I don't think we're that at odds, just that our takes come from polar opposite sides of the equation.

Also, I don't hate my accountant--I just wish he'd listen to me ... just like you!
post #29 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatatjoes View Post
Thanks for the links, yt. I can offer only anecdotal support right now, as phones aren't very "cut-and-paste link" friendly.
eatatjoes, your anecdotal information is invaluable. I don't really think the big picture has coalesced just yet but I think there should be Pecora-style hearings with testimony from everybody on every level, including stories like yours, to really define for the record how this happened.
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
1. Declare a moratorium on all home evictions. Not one more family should be thrown out of their home. The banks must adjust their monthly mortgage payments to be in line with what people's homes are now truly worth -- and what they can afford. Also, it must be stated by law: If you lose your job, you cannot be tossed out of your home.

3. Do not invest in the stock market. If you have any extra cash, put it away in a savings account or, if you can, pay down on your mortgage so you can own your home as soon as possible. You can also buy very safe government savings bonds or T-bills. Or just buy your mother some flowers.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Now thats just silly. Let's just take all risk out of home buying! Sure, what the hell! Forget about saving money in case you lose your job so you can pay your mortgage..why be..gasp!...responsible! While I totally agree the banks and lenders screwed a shitload of people this whole idea is just preposterous.

As for the stock market, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard preached around personal economics. If you understand MATH even in the slightest and the concept of compunding growth and diversity it is almost impossible to lose money if you invest in the stock market over a long period of time. Telling people not to sock money away in the market just makes him ignorant of common-sense economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
3. Demand publicly-funded elections and a prohibition on elected officials leaving office and becoming lobbyists. Yes, those very members of Congress who solicit and receive millions of dollars from wealthy interests must vote to remove ALL money from our electoral and legislative process. Tell your members of Congress they must support campaign finance bill H.R.1826.

1. Take your money out of your bank if it took bailout money and place it in a locally-owned bank or, preferably, a credit union.

2. Get rid of all your credit cards but one -- the kind where you have to pay up at the end of the month or you lose your card.

5. Take care of yourself and your family. Sorry to go all Oprah on you, but she's right: Find a place of peace in your life and make the choice to be around people who are not full of negativity and cynicism. Look for those who nurture and love. Turn off the TV and the Blackberry and go for a 30-minute walk every day. Eat fruits and vegetables and cut down on anything that has sugar, high fructose corn syrup, white flour or too much sodium (salt) in it (and, as Michael Pollan says, "Eat (real) food, not too much, mostly plants"). Get seven hours of sleep each night and take the time to read a book a month. I know this sounds like I've turned into your grandma, but, dammit, take a good hard look at Granny -- she's fit, she's rested and she knows the names of both of her U.S. Senators without having to Google them. We might do well to listen to her. If we don't put our own "oxygen mask" on first (as they say on the airplane), we will be of no use to the rest of the nation in enacting any of this action plan!


Well fuck me, I agree with Moore. These are excellent ideas. That does it, now I have to go kill myself.

Moore is a hypocrit though. Just look at the man, he hasn't eaten a fruit or vegetable or exercised since grammar school.
post #31 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
The Closer, you're far more knowledgeable than I on the ins and outs of all this, so I defer to you on specifics. I'm talking broadly about risk and people snapping out of it and thinking realistically about what's best for them--it may not be investing. Yet we were all sold this bill of goods from the early '90s onwards and maybe it's great and maybe it's a sham, but in light of the derivatives debacle and lack of laws/regulations in the wake of same, I believe that for me personally--and maybe for a lot of others--putting their money into mechanisms they have no comfort level or true understanding of is a bad idea. I don't think we're that at odds, just that our takes come from polar opposite sides of the equation.

Also, I don't hate my accountant--I just wish he'd listen to me ... just like you!
Thats fair, and as I mentioned before if your decision to take all your money out of the market is an ethical one (personally speaking), then more power to you.

But like I said, you havent taken your money out of the market yet! Remember that all your money markets are belong to us.

post #32 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I see what you mean and I dont disagree. Regarding simply socking money away in a bank account, I would say that if you make enough money to afford to save enough to the extent that you can live out the retirement you envision then more power to you. When my souless coworkers and I are faced with 65 year old widows with $5 million bucks who say they dont need more than $80,000 per year in income, we happily tell them to keep it in various FDIC insured savings accounts. Of course we usually key her car afterwards for wasting our time and denying us a commission check, but you get my point. If that scenario is available to you then theres no reason to do anything else.

I wasnt suggesting that investing in the market is a "must," rather that when we evaluate all the other options for long term savings that we have (especially from a tax advantage standpoint) it is still the best bang for the buck by far...especially if youre not in a position to save enough where a 2% rate of return in a bank account will be enough to get you to retirement.
Sure, and again, if you know what you're doing, go for it. But I'm pretty sure there have been people pressured into investing, thanks to people like JudgeSmails, who don't have the means, time, or financial sense to do so responsibly. Not investing in the market seems like a valid choice, I don't think it should be the subject of ridicule, and the larger attitude that's being expressed, that if you're not maximizing your finances AT ALL TIMES you're some kind of moron, again, seems like it might tie into the kind of attitude that wrecked things up. This is particularly so when you consider that the stock market seems increasingly disconnected from anything resembling actual value.
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