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Paul Haggis to Scientology: I quit this bitch!

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
Haggis wrote Scientology spokesperson Tommy Davis a letter citing his disappointment with the church's stance on gay rights

Quote:
Tommy,

As you know, for ten months now I have been writing to ask you to make a public statement denouncing the actions of the Church of Scientology of San Diego. Their public sponsorship of Proposition 8, a hate-filled legislation that succeeded in taking away the civil rights of gay and lesbian citizens of California – rights that were granted them by the Supreme Court of our state – shames us.

I called and wrote and implored you, as the official spokesman of the church, to condemn their actions. I told you I could not, in good conscience, be a member of an organization where gay-bashing was tolerated.

In that first conversation, back at the end of October of last year, you told me you were horrified, that you would get to the bottom of it and "heads would roll." You promised action. Ten months passed. No action was forthcoming. The best you offered was a weak and carefully worded press release, which praised the church's human rights record and took no responsibility. Even that, you decided not to publish.

The church's refusal to denounce the actions of these bigots, hypocrites and homophobes is cowardly. I can think of no other word. Silence is consent, Tommy. I refuse to consent.

I joined the Church of Scientology thirty-five years ago. During my twenties and early thirties I studied and received a great deal of counseling. While I have not been an active member for many years, I found much of what I learned to be very helpful, and I still apply it in my daily life. I have never pretended to be the best Scientologist, but I openly and vigorously defended the church whenever it was criticized, as I railed against the kind of intolerance that I believed was directed against it. I had my disagreements, but I dealt with them internally. I saw the organization – with all its warts, growing pains and problems – as an underdog. And I have always had a thing for underdogs.

But I reached a point several weeks ago where I no longer knew what to think. You had allowed our name to be allied with the worst elements of the Christian Right. In order to contain a potential "PR flap" you allowed our sponsorship of Proposition 8 to stand. Despite all the church's words about promoting freedom and human rights, its name is now in the public record alongside those who promote bigotry and intolerance, homophobia and fear.

The fact that the Mormon Church drew all the fire, that no one noticed, doesn't matter. I noticed. And I felt sick. I wondered how the church could, in good conscience, through the action of a few and then the inaction of its leadership, support a bill that strips a group of its civil rights.

This was my state of mind when I was online doing research and chanced upon an interview clip with you on CNN. The interview lasted maybe ten minutes – it was just you and the newscaster. And in it I saw you deny the church's policy of disconnection. You said straight-out there was no such policy, that it did not exist.

I was shocked. We all know this policy exists. I didn't have to search for verification – I didn't have to look any further than my own home.

You might recall that my wife was ordered to disconnect from her parents because of something absolutely trivial they supposedly did twenty-five years ago when they resigned from the church. This is a lovely retired couple, never said a negative word about Scientology to me or anyone else I know – hardly raving maniacs or enemies of the church. In fact it was they who introduced my wife to Scientology.

Although it caused her terrible personal pain, my wife broke off all contact with them. I refused to do so. I've never been good at following orders, especially when I find them morally reprehensible.

For a year and a half, despite her protestations, my wife did not speak to her parents and they had limited access to their grandchild. It was a terrible time.

That's not ancient history, Tommy. It was a year ago.

And you could laugh at the question as if it was a joke? You could publicly state that it doesn't exist?

To see you lie so easily, I am afraid I had to ask myself: what else are you lying about?

And that is when I read the recent articles in the St. Petersburg Times. They left me dumbstruck and horrified.

These were not the claims made by "outsiders" looking to dig up dirt against us. These accusations were made by top international executives who had devoted most of their lives to the church. Say what you will about them now, these were staunch defenders of the church, including Mike Rinder, the church's official spokesman for 20 years!

Tommy, if only a fraction of these accusations are true, we are talking about serious, indefensible human and civil rights violations. It is still hard for me to believe. But given how many former top-level executives have said these things are true, it is hard to believe it is all lies.

"...the same face that denied the policy of disconnection"

And when I pictured you assuring me that it is all lies, that this is nothing but an unfounded and vicious attack by a group of disgruntled employees, I am afraid that I saw the same face that looked in the camera and denied the policy of disconnection. I heard the same voice that professed outrage at our support of Proposition 8, who promised to correct it, and did nothing.

I carefully read all of your rebuttals, I watched every video where you presented the church's position, I listened to all your arguments – ever word. I wish I could tell you that they rang true. But they didn't.

I was left feeling outraged, and frankly, more than a little stupid.

And though it may seem small by comparison, I was truly disturbed to see you provide private details from confessionals to the press in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the executives who spoke out. A priest would go to jail before revealing secrets from the confessional, no matter what the cost to himself or his church. That's the kind of integrity I thought we had, but obviously the standard in this church is far lower – the public relations representative can reveal secrets to the press if the management feels justified. You even felt free to publish secrets from the confessional in Freedom Magazine – you just stopped short of labeling them as such, probably because you knew Scientologists would be horrified, knowing you so easily broke a sacred vow of trust with your parishioners.

How dare you use private information in order to label someone an "adulteress?" You took Amy Scobee's most intimate admissions about her sexual life and passed them onto the press and then smeared them all over the pages your newsletter! I do not know the woman, but no matter what she said or did, this is the woman who joined the Sea Org at 16! She ran the entire celebrity center network, and was a loyal senior executive of the church for what, 20 years? You want to rebut her accusations, do it, and do it in the strongest terms possible – but that kind of character assassination is unconscionable.

So, I am now painfully aware that you might see this an attack and just as easily use things I have confessed over the years to smear my name. Well, luckily I have never held myself up to be anyone's role model.

The great majority of Scientologists I know are good people who are genuinely interested in improving conditions on this planet and helping others. I have to believe that if they knew what I now know, they too would be horrified. But I know how easy it was for me to defend our organization and dismiss our critics, without ever truly looking at what was being said; I did it for thirty-five years. And so, after writing this letter, I am fully aware that some of my friends may choose to no longer associate with me, or in some cases work with me. I will always take their calls, as I always took yours. However, I have finally come to the conclusion that I can no longer be a part of this group. Frankly, I had to look no further than your refusal to denounce the church's anti-gay stance, and the indefensible actions, and inactions, of those who condone this behavior within the organization. I am only ashamed that I waited this many months to act. I hereby resign my membership in the Church of Scientology.

Sincerely,

Paul Haggis
post #2 of 63
I like how our posts are nearly identical, right down to the format. Diva, you and me, we aren't so different. But maybe since yours is in the gossip thread, it will get more replies.
post #3 of 63
Thread Starter 
Big fat Late Pass to me!
post #4 of 63
Nice that he finally "saw the light" or whatever, but still, I have to wonder at this guys stupidity for buying into this bullshit in the first place.
post #5 of 63
Still - nice bitchslap! Even if it was over-due in coming.
post #6 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Nice that he finally "saw the light" or whatever, but still, I have to wonder at this guys stupidity for buying into this bullshit in the first place.
My EXACT thoughts as I was reading the article.

I'm beginning to run out of sympathy and/or huzzahs for folks who finally realize what they're involved in with this organization. The lid's been off this garbage can for sometime now and idea that people are just now coming to understand the scope of it is getting pretty hard to swallow.

Then again, this is my head-scratching dilemma with folks who insist they are open-minded and perhaps even **looks around furtively** somewhat liberal in their beliefs, yet continue to consider themselves part of a "church" that has diametrically opposed viewpoints on even the most humanist issues.
post #7 of 63
I don't care if Scientology was the "new cult on the block" today and had zero bad publicity, I'd smell that bullshit from half a world away.

But then for me, that goes for any sort of organized religion/cult/worship group, so I guess I'm biased.
post #8 of 63
Exactly, the whole thing just looks so shifty. The More you pay, the more progressive and Holier you are? That's always a dead giveaway.

ETA: and don't forget kids, the Aliens live in the volcano...
post #9 of 63
Not too different from passing the collection plate back in the day, at least at the churches I attended. People actually got shout-outs during sermons for having given big donations. I guess it's the least the preacher could have done.
post #10 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Not too different from passing the collection plate back in the day, at least at the churches I attended. People actually got shout-outs during sermons for having given big donations. I guess it's the least the preacher could have done.
Haha. Should've had a Very Important Pew up front.

The last time I got a shout-out based on large pockets was from the jolly bloke with the pickle-cart at the Renaissance Fair. "Huzzah for the big tipper!"
post #11 of 63
I don't know, from what I've read, you buy yourself into progressively more expensive (hundreds of thousands) levels in the church were you get the next chapter of L.Ron Hubbard's craziest works. Is that real, or just outsider stuff made up to bad mouth Scientology?
post #12 of 63
Thread Starter 
I'm with the "better late than never" crowd. When you care about something, you view it with rose colored glasses. But after a certain point, like all things in life, things get less rosy. If it took Haggis seeing a good friend blatantly lie on national TV, then so be it.
post #13 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXN1138 View Post
I don't know, from what I've read, you buy yourself into progressively more expensive (hundreds of thousands) levels in the church were you get the next chapter of L.Ron Hubbard's craziest works. Is that real, or just outsider stuff made up to bad mouth Scientology?
That's what I've read AND heard too, although you're actually buying lessons/classes in Scientologist teachings. You need to take a bunch of those lessons in order to achieve the next level of insight, and those lessons get really expensive as you progress down the line.
post #14 of 63
You also get superpowers the higher up you get. I think Lisa Marie Presley can fly and do complicated math in her head.
post #15 of 63
Scientology: The Religion That's Like An RPG!
post #16 of 63
The guy stayed in it a FUCKING YEAR after his wife was asked to cut off her fucking family! But it took a major news network's interview to really seal the deal. Amazing.
post #17 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Nice that he finally "saw the light" or whatever, but still, I have to wonder at this guys stupidity for buying into this bullshit in the first place.
After Crash, I think we shouldn't be surprised that it takes this guy a while to figure shit out
post #18 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
The guy stayed in it a FUCKING YEAR after his wife was asked to cut off her fucking family! But it took a major news network's interview to really seal the deal. Amazing.
He understood that the Church's policies were unconventional, but like believers of any religion he looked past that because he thought he was doing it for the greater good. But if his religion were truly about faith, there wouldn't be any reason to lie about its practices. And while it may amaze us that he hadn't witnessed the Church lie about their practices prior to that moment, it seems that he really didn't know the Church was lying to the public until that interview.

He's a sucker either way, but I wouldn't trivialize what caused his epiphany. Life isn't like the movies. You don't get banged over your head and have a light bulb appear. It seems that he had lots of small misgivings over time that added up, until they weren't so little anymore.
post #19 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Scientology: The Religion That's Like An RPG!
Shit...it all makes sense now...
post #20 of 63
35 years is a hell of an investment of time, faith, and money in Scientology. Regardless of our feelings towards the man as a writer/filmaker, we should applaud the fact that he finally owned up to the fact that that 35 year investment was a sham.
post #21 of 63
You guys around the NY area owe it to yourselves to head over to their Manhattan HQ in the theater district. Pop in for the free "Orientation" program.

Some years back, long before they really started developing the bad pr, I dropped in on the way home from school in the city. Urged on by a handout on 8th Ave I headed up a few blocks to their seemingly innocuous building nestled in (what I consciously considered to be) a busily safe area.

While the basic structure of it (intro questionnaire, 30 minute film, longer more invasive questionnaire culminating in an intensive screening interview) resembles the average self-help/pyramid scheme situation, it's the fringe elements that give it the menacing overtone. Pseudo-naval outifts, the spelling out of The Passion of L Ron, the Dr Whoesque E-Meter Device...plus the fact that, at least at the Manhattan building, when you go in, you're led through several labyrinthine hallways that couldn't possibly have been designed with any other intention than to disorient the visitor. For the first time in my life I had to admit to myself that if there was a fire, I would not be able to find my way out of there. Of course, it wasn't a fire I was really concerned about.

That interview was easily the most psychologically demanding hour I've ever spent with a stranger. Unlike most people who head in there(one assumes), I wasn't looking for a guiding light, a flock to graze with or direction for my life. Essentially (and with sheepish honesty) I was faking the whole thing! I had, as far as I could tell, all my wits about me and clear understanding of what I'd be up against (I had attended a few selfhelpy weekend scams with a friend as a show of support and was very familiar with approach)and he still put me in a corner.

Of course, the cosmetic goal was to move Hubbard books. They're kept all over the main area in the same manner the important shit at Jewish temples are. Lurking beneath though was something I would only be able to describe in relation to my studies of the Reverend Jim Jones. His approach was insidiously simple; make the person feel isolated, cutoff and helpless so that the only way to go is into the open arms of the church.

Joey is right, under the costume it's the same basic bullshit as any other organized religion. While these folks are a bit more crackpotty, I can't understand why they're given the scrutiny for things that are part-and-parcel with almost all the other cults.
post #22 of 63
It's interesting that you bring up the Manhattan location, Soylent (and even more interesting that you experienced it first hand - yikes!). A few years ago, I was walking through Times Square, and I saw a couple of medically-dressed individuals (white lab coat, scrubs, stethescopes) sitting at a table out on the sidewalk, offering "free stress tests". Next to them on the table were piles of Scientology literature, and stacks of "Dianetics". They were pretty much stationed where they knew all the tourists would be - in front of lines where they're waiting to get into shows, trying to get tickets, etc. This particular pair was right in front of the line of folks waiting to get into Tussaud's Wax Museum (another very heavily populated street in Times Square) - and they had a couple of tourists snagged. They were sitting down at the tables, with blood-pressure cuffs around their arms. I'm assuming the result would be that they were so FULL of stress, wouldn't they really like to experience a way for life to just fall into place?
post #23 of 63
Thread Starter 
Soylent, a friend and I went many years ago. I can't for the life of me remember what they asked, but we answered wrong and they wouldn't even let us take the questionnaire.
post #24 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Soylent, a friend and I went many years ago. I can't for the life of me remember what they asked, but we answered wrong and they wouldn't even let us take the questionnaire.
Was it 'How much cash do you have on you?'
post #25 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
He understood that the Church's policies were unconventional, but like believers of any religion he looked past that because he thought he was doing it for the greater good. But if his religion were truly about faith, there wouldn't be any reason to lie about its practices. And while it may amaze us that he hadn't witnessed the Church lie about their practices prior to that moment, it seems that he really didn't know the Church was lying to the public until that interview.

He's a sucker either way, but I wouldn't trivialize what caused his epiphany. Life isn't like the movies. You don't get banged over your head and have a light bulb appear. It seems that he had lots of small misgivings over time that added up, until they weren't so little anymore.
If it was really about faith, it would not charge thousands of dollars for the "next level" of it's teachings.
That is what makes the CO$ different then the average church. The average church will hit you up for contribution but they don't charge for the teachings of the church per se.
But what makes the CO$ more dangerous then you average scam is the control they want to exercise over it's members and it's ruthless attitude toward it's critics.
Haggis is going to the get full "Fair Game" treatment now.
BUt..yeah, the guy should have caught on a long time ago, and quit the Super Adventure Club a long time ago.
post #26 of 63
There was a pamphlet for their "stress test" on my friends car once. That thing was hilarious. It was all basic questions that any hard working person would answer yes to like. "How tired to do feel at the and of the day", and even funnier none of the answers were something like "I feel pretty good". They were all totally rigged to make you question how normal your perfectly normal feelings were. Then I flipped it over and it had a website where you could order dianetics.

I got a good laugh out of that.
post #27 of 63
I've wanted to go inside the Manhattan center for a long time. I wanna answer correctly and get to take the questionnaire!
post #28 of 63
A West Coast Video closed in Philly a year or so ago, and one day the whole store front, 3D West Coast Video logo and all, was painted black, and inside was an exhibit about the dangers/horrors of psychology. It was there for a month but I never went in.
post #29 of 63
Scientology is one of my favorite "can't make this shit up, real life is crazier than fiction" topics. It's just mind-boggling that it's really real and people actually buy into it. I read this Paul Haggis story last night and it inspired me to watch a couple random youtube videos featuring that Tommy Davis guy, and damn is he fucking creepy. And they have the absolute worst, most damning PR strategy imaginable.

Phil, was that the West Coast Video right in center city? Wish I'd noticed, totally would've gone in and checked it out/made fun of it.
post #30 of 63
Thread Starter 
Anytime I need a laugh, I watch this. It never gets old.
post #31 of 63
I hope he writes a harrowing, critically-acclaimed sub-Afterschool-Special screenplay about this incident to enlighten and endear a nation to the plight of Scientologists everywhere.
post #32 of 63
And we get it right after EZ Streets is released on DVD, along with the unaired episodes...
post #33 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Anytime I need a laugh, I watch this. It never gets old.
Tom wants to go on vacation, but he can't because he knows, and he has to do something?

Is that video supposed to make any sense at all? It's so vague and random. How is anybody supposed to watch that and have any idea what he is talking about?
post #34 of 63
By being a fellow scientologist, that's how. Wasn't it made for internal use within the church?

What I want to know is why Tom Cruise is wasting his time making movies if scientologists are actually the only ones who can really help people in trouble. Shouldn't he just be driving around looking for car accidents and such?
post #35 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Anytime I need a laugh, I watch this. It never gets old.
"They said, 'So like...have you met an SP?' HAHAHAHAHA and I looked at them, ya know. And I thought what a beautiful thing because maybe one day it will be like that, ya know what I'm saying? Maybe one day...HAHAHAHAHAHA 'Wow, SPs! They'll read about them in the history books!' Ya know?"

Where have you been in my life, Tom Cruise Rambling About Scientology video?!? Thanks, Diva.
post #36 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Benenson View Post
By being a fellow scientologist, that's how. Wasn't it made for internal use within the church?
Yeah, I got that, but even so, it's not particularly succinct is it? Also, I'd pay good money to see Tom Cruise run up on a car crash, start beating pack the paramedics while screaming "You don't know! I'm a Scientologist, I'm the only one who can help!" jeez, last train to crazy town.
post #37 of 63
...then proceeds to ask the wounded a bunch of ridiculous questions about the stress in their lives as they bleed out on the pavement
post #38 of 63
"Do you feel tired and run down after getting t-boned on the interstate by a tractor trailer?"
post #39 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXN1138 View Post
Tom Cruise run up on a car crash, start beating pack the paramedics while screaming "You don't know! I'm a Scientologist, I'm the only one who can help!" jeez, last train to crazy town.
I have a mental image of that right now.



Good laugh, indeed.
post #40 of 63
Thread Starter 
Me too. Thanks for the laugh this morning, JXN1138.
post #41 of 63
I'm reminded of that scene in Religulous where Maher is doing stand-up and mentions Scientology and it immediately starts getting laughs before he has a chance to even do a joke. It's just as silly as the other religions folks, if Dianetics were written in 400 AD it'd probably be just as "respected" as other religious works today.

"Do you often sing or whistle just for fun?"
post #42 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Benenson View Post
...then proceeds to ask the wounded a bunch of ridiculous questions about the stress in their lives as they bleed out on the pavement
It's ok, they're just bleeding out their body thetans, it's actually helping them. And all the while the opening seconds of that horrible Limp Bizkit M:I-2 song loop over and over and over.
post #43 of 63
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...de_scientology

A number of you have probably read this before, but a pretty interesting look at scientology from Rolling Stone.
post #44 of 63
The Church of Scientology Convicted of Fraud in France

Quote:
Paris, France (CNN) -- A French court on Tuesday convicted the Church of Scientology and six of its members of organized fraud, but stopped short of banning the church.

The court also fined the members as much as 400,000 euros ($595,000) each.

The decision follows a three-week trial in May and June, during which two plaintiffs said they were defrauded by the organization, which is classified as a sect in France.

The Church of Scientology has about 45,000 followers in France, and some of them were in court Tuesday.

The church had said before the verdict that it would appeal any judgment against it.

The judge at the Correctional Court in Paris said the church may continue its activities in France, but he said those activities must remain "on the correct side of the law."

As part of the penalties, the church was ordered to publish the results of the verdict in several national and international magazines to warn people, the judge said, about what Scientology offers and what was discovered at trial.

The plaintiffs focused their complaints on the use of a device that Scientologists say measures spiritual well-being. Members used the electropsychometer, or E-Meter, to "locate areas of spiritual duress or travail so they can be addressed and handled," according to Scientology's Web site.

The plaintiffs said that, after using the device, they were encouraged to pay for vitamins and books. They said that amounted to fraud.

Prosecutors had asked for the dissolution of the church and its Paris bookstore.
It's a start.
post #45 of 63
Words I never thought I would say.

Thank You France!
post #46 of 63
And of course the Scientologists pull the persecution card. At least this time they went with a Inquisition comparison instead of the Holocaust.
A long time ago I watched some youtube vids of how they deal with protesters. Very pro-active "attack the attacker" stuff. And above all else, creepy as fuck.
post #47 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Anytime I need a laugh, I watch this. It never gets old.
Just about the biggest pile of crazy in modern entertainment. Thanks for that Diva, I've never seen it start to finish unedited.

The man's nuts - NUTS - he's nuttier than a sack of mixed nuts at a nut plantation.

Does anyone think if he'd discovered Islam he'd have become a jihadi?
post #48 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Does anyone think if he'd discovered Islam he'd have become a jihadi?
The Wahabbi sect doesn't have a cushy VIP program for celebrity terrorists. So probably no.
post #49 of 63
I think if Cruise ever pulled a Haggis it would be one of the more damaging instances in their history. A minor celebrity disillusioned in their ranks is one thing, but their chief lap dog joining the "dark side" that would be something else.
post #50 of 63
I doubt that would ever happen though. The guy just seems way to far gone. But I guess you never know.
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