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Halloween 4 vs. H20

post #1 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:18pm
Thread Starter 
At this point, the Halloween series actually has four continuities:
H1, H2, H4-6
H3
H1, H2, H20, H8
H1remake, H2remake

Five continuities if you count the Halloween 6: Producers cut. Six continuities if you consider H20 to be a definitive ending that H8 bastardizes. I remember, in my adolescent, innocent years post-H8, pre-H1r, I envisioned a ninth movie that would have revealed that Jamie never died and her and John would meet and fight Michael together. After all if H20 hadn't negated the previous movies, by my math John and Jamie would be twins.

Of course to explain how Laurie faked her death in a car accident and went into hiding with her son but not her daughter would have been overly complicated. Like Star Wars-level retconning, especially with twins involved. I remember reading Kevin Williamson's early scriptment of H20 that attempted to explain it, but mostly it name dropped Jamie Lloyd and then moved on.

Moving on, my point is that both H4 and H20 worked to revive the franchise after a period of dormancy. Of the two, in my opinion, H4 is the superior. There's an epic scale to the film, as Michael actually lays siege to the entire town of Haddonfield (and has a ridiculous body count). Throw in Loomis's encounter with a crazy apocalyptic reverend and a redneck militia on Michael's trail, and this movie is a keeper. Plus, the director actually bothers to establish atmosphere (the opening scenes of the holiday's iconography are nice and tension building).

H20, by comparison, feels like it could take place any time of the year. The entire school leaves that day to go on a trip somewhere? Why not have a Halloween dance or something? All of the characters, except Laurie and LL Cool J, are boring as hell and don't even get good deaths. The only saving grace in this film is the opening, Janet Leigh, and the fight at the end.

For God's sake, there's a whole five minute scene where Michael stalks a mom and daughter at a rest stop...that comes to nothing. All so Michael could steal their car. Did the director realize at the last second that a car, even on a full tank of gas, couldn't drive from Illinois to California and threw in a quick scene? Envisioning Michael pumping gas late at night does give me a chuckle.

In H20's defense, Michael and his mask(s) do look better. In H4 he looks like an alien. Also to H4's detriment, it is a little unnerving to see a little girl getting chased. It's unavoidable, I suppose, if you want to keep the whole bloodline story, but even though Danielle Harris does an admirable job she's a non-character because she's in tears the whole time and can't fight back.

At least I got to see her naked in the remake.
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post #2 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:25pm
H4 has Loomis. H20 doesn't. Winner: H4.
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post #3 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:27pm
H20 is the first R-rated movie I saw in a theater.
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post #4 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Can't remember if it was my first, but I know I snuck into it.
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post #5 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:32pm
Quote:
there's a whole five minute scene where Michael...that comes to nothing.
This is 80% of the original film.

You can only compare the films in the way they follow up on the original. And in that regard, H20 is a better follow-up in nearly every sense.
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post #6 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
At this point, the Halloween series actually has four continuities:
H1, H2, H4-6
H3
H1, H2, H20, H8
H1remake, H2remake

Five continuities if you count the Halloween 6: Producers cut. Six continuities if you consider H20 to be a definitive ending that H8 bastardizes.
What if you don't count any continuities because you purged your mind of any of the sequels from ever having had existed? Even the original Halloween II? There's only one Halloween continuity to me. No unnecessary Laurie is Michael's sister bullshit. And it ends on the most frightening note of all... Loomis looking over that balcony to discover Michael's body is no longer lying there. The boogeyman is still alive and he's out there somewhere in the night. A perfect ending to a perfectly simple horror yarn.
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post #7 of 126
10/27/09 at 1:53pm
Trying to rank all the Myers Halloween sequels and remakes is like trying to determine which dogturd tastes the sweetest.
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post #8 of 126
10/27/09 at 3:30pm
Thread Starter 
Point taken, but I actually enjoy a few of the sequels (2, 4, 6: Producer's Cut). For argument's sake, like if someone was holding a gun to your head, which movie would you choose?

And Phil, I would argue that although Michael spent most of the first movie's running time stalking, he was stalking the main characters. As we followed their ongoing plot, he cast a dark veil over the events. The incident at the rest stop adds nothing to H20. In fact, if I remember right, Michael's car is shown to be abandoned not due to lack of gas but a flat tire! So at some point he did have to fill 'er up...
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post #9 of 126
10/27/09 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
And Phil, I would argue that although Michael spent most of the first movie's running time stalking, he was stalking the main characters. As we followed their ongoing plot, he cast a dark veil over the events. The incident at the rest stop adds nothing to H20. In fact, if I remember right, Michael's car is shown to be abandoned not due to lack of gas but a flat tire! So at some point he did have to fill 'er up...
I was more pointing out that for 80% (okay, maybe 70%) of the first film, NOTHING HAPPENS.

Michael certainly "casts a veil" over H20. It's no masterpiece, but if we're measuring sequels, I'll take pointless rest stop tension builder over the final scene of H4 any day.
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post #10 of 126
10/27/09 at 3:44pm
I rewatched HALLOWEEN 4 recently thinking that I liked it. I found it to be idiotic, plodding and pedestrian in every way save Danielle Harris's performance. It is a dull, paint-by-numbers attempt to get the franchise back on track with easily the WORST Michael Myers look in the whole series.

H20 brings back Laurie Strode to great effect and Jaime Lee kills the role. Michael looks better than past sequels and has some iconic moments. The Kevin Williamson stuff is a bit ill fitting for the franchise, but all things considered, the film works. You can even say it fits in continuity -- just because the Jaimie Lloyd stuff isn't acknowledged doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, there was supposedly a cut scene that acknowledged it.

I give the win to H20.
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post #11 of 126
10/27/09 at 4:01pm
Thread Starter 
Touche Phil.

Okay, here's something I've been wondering about since I watched Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon. His, Leslie's, thesis is that the "survivor girl" has to steal the killer's phallus by finding a weapon of her own, thus empowering herself and castrating him at the same time. His goal was to find a survivor girl worthy enough for him to fall in love with.

So here's my question: is there a strange romance between horror movie monsters and their victims? That is, in the case of multiple movies like Freddy and Nancy, Ripley and the Alien, and Laurie and Michael. In all cases there's a kind of resignation, as exemplified by Ripley's "you've been in my life for so long" speech in Alien 3. In Wes Craven's New Nightmare, when Freddy emerges from the closet, he lands atop Nancy and there's a moment when he whispers her name in which it's like he wants to kiss her.

In the case of Laurie and Michael they are, of course, siblings, but hey, sharing blood didn't stop Michael from impregnating his niece (at least according to 6:PC). I know they hadn't written that way at the time, but when Michael is breaking into the closet in the first Halloween, his breathing is incredibly sexual. Backtrack to him murdering his sister while she was topless (right after she had sex), and one has to wonder: does Michael want to fuck his sister?

With a butcher knife?
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post #12 of 126
10/27/09 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
does Michael want to fuck his sister?

With a butcher knife?
I'd say yes. You can argue that all the kills in the original film are sexually motivated except for the tow-truck driver.
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post #13 of 126
10/27/09 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
So here's my question: is there a strange romance between horror movie monsters and their victims?




Kinda. The slashers hang onto that in a vestigial way ("I'm your boyfriend now, Nancy", etc.)
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post #14 of 126
10/27/09 at 5:53pm
Good point Phil. The Nightmare on Elm Street series is the only one of the modern slashers to acknowledge the psycho-sexual nature in the relationship between classic movie monsters and the heroines.

It's especially free-for-all if you see that the tradition even carries over to Nightmare 2, which is - for all intents and purposes - a gay BDSM horror film.

I wonder if the remake will hold on to that. But I highly doubt it. I expect that, aside from JEH, we're going to get a standard slice of Platinum Dunes granola.

...

I know this thread was originally about comparing H4 to H20. H20 is unquestionably the superior film, especially if you take into account actual filmmaking technique, screenplay and acting.

I get the "epic feeling" that Bartleby is alluding to in H4. And I do think it's interesting that they tried to turn it into a serialized adventure story as it spun into H5. But the fact they pretty much abandoned that concept brings to mind that they didn't really have a clear handle on what they were doing.

H20 had a very clear objective, stuck to its guns and delivered on its promise. H1, H2 and H20 actually make a pretty satisfying trilogy.
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post #15 of 126
10/27/09 at 6:43pm
The movie is complete shit, but I adore the batshit ending to H5. I also adore that that storyline turned out to be Mitchell Ryan in the trenchcoat and fedora, even if it made absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever.

I usually hate these things, but I would welcome a fan edit of 4-5-6 that embraced the insanity by way of ineptitude.

H20 has no teeth. It's competently made, the definition of middle of the road.
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post #16 of 126
10/27/09 at 6:59pm
Thread Starter 
Plus, what an anti-climax for Laurie to have died in a car accident. H20 remedies that. It's just weird for me because the movie was originally intended as a sequel to H6: having her be in witness protection was in reaction to the fact that she had "died" between 2 and 4. Much like the Incredible Hulk and Punisher: War Zone, reboots that started off as sequels.

H20 works perfectly as a morality play between good and evil, matriarchy and patriarchy, sister and brother. Michael's knocking off of siblings not only harkens back to Druid sacrifice but the story of Cain and Abel, the first murder. Biblical in scope, the last twenty minutes of H20 is spectacular. Jamie Lee puts in a power house performance, I love it.

Too bad the rest of the movie sucks asshole.
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post #17 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Biblical in scope, the last twenty minutes of H20 is spectacular. Jamie Lee puts in a power house performance, I love it.
Holy hell, man. I can't even remember what happens in the last twenty minutes of H20.
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post #18 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:08pm
Thread Starter 
Lots of stabbing, corpse robbing, and a beheading.
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post #19 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:17pm
How can you guys even tell the sequels apart?
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post #20 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Too bad the rest of the movie sucks asshole.
But wait Bartleby... What about Adam Arkin's hilarious death scene?

Or is that part of the spectacular 20 minutes...
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post #21 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Twenty minutes starts as soon as Laurie grabs the penis...ahem, fire axe.

MICHAEL!!!
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post #22 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith F View Post
I usually hate these things, but I would welcome a fan edit of 4-5-6 that embraced the insanity by way of ineptitude.
It would be a fan edit of three movies' worth of terrible.

Quote:
H20 has no teeth. It's competently made, the definition of middle of the road.
But let's be fair - there is absolutely nothing subversive, transgressive, or even mildly antisocial about the original Halloween. Tonally, H20 is very much its successor. Both are "pure" in their simplicity. 4 is a fucking mess of continuity strangulation*.

*This post brought you by Grey Goose. I'm out!
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post #23 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:53pm
Thread Starter 
Nothing subversive about Halloween? Hmmm, there's the aforementioned psycho-sexual relationship has with Laurie (even before she was determined to be his sister, there's still something bizarre about a dude wanting to "penetrate" her in more than one way).

If not subversion, there's certainly subtext. What of the discussion of fate in Laurie's classroom: "In Samuels' writing, fate is immoveable like a mountain. It stands where man passes away. Fate never changes." Why is Laurie fated to face Michael?
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post #24 of 126
10/27/09 at 7:56pm
Aside from the original all I know is that I really like Halloween II and feel it's underrated, and kinda love Halloween III and wish they'd followed that blueprint from then on. Everything after that is shit which, as Bradito points out, all blends together.
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post #25 of 126
10/27/09 at 8:18pm
Love Durand as the Shape, Laurie, the opening title sequence and the showdown. Still, there are four major things that are just horrible.

1) The ice skate through the head. Since when is Michael able to teleport stuff in others people heads? Because there's no way anyone could do it this clean.

2) It's major playground is a private school. Hell yes. Now, right before Michael arrives, EVERYONE LEAVES. THE FUCK? This has less than 90 minutes, how could they not try to put more kills in there? What were they thinking?

3) The CGI mask shot. They had finished the movie and destroyed the masks before noticing that one important shot was missing. Therefore, they CGI-ed it in. And it shows. In the kitchen.

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlthnkLtAmc Minute 1:10. What kind of move is that. Did he hang there with one arm? Like this?



Not even Jackie goddamn Chan could have been able to do that.

Just noticed that Cobra Commander was in H20. Who knew.
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post #26 of 126
10/27/09 at 9:06pm
It's briefly been mentioned here, but i would just like to also acknowledge that Daniel Harris gives a fucking amazing performance in 4 & 5. There's no reason a kid actor should be that good in almost anything, let alone cheap slasher film sequels.
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post #27 of 126
10/27/09 at 11:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
It's briefly been mentioned here, but i would just like to also acknowledge that Daniel Harris gives a fucking amazing performance in 4 & 5. There's no reason a kid actor should be that good in almost anything, let alone cheap slasher film sequels.
She was just warming up for her masterful portrayal of Darian Hallenbeck.
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post #28 of 126
10/28/09 at 2:03am
This thread popping up is funny because I've been reading my copy of the novelization of part 4 (titled Halloween IV) and it's been a pretty good page turner. If picking between those 2 I'd surely go with part 4. If only for the fact that it has the only scene in the entire series where Loomis is legitimately happy. It's when the Reverend played by Carmine Filpi picks him up, and offers him a drink, and he has this big smile on his face that says "YEAH, I NEED A DRINK." Then when the Reverend starts singing he smiles even more. That was a good moment for us to see Loomis actually happy.
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post #29 of 126
10/28/09 at 2:37am
You...have...the novelization!? Of HALLOWEEN 4!? AND YOU'RE READING IT!?!

Actually, props to ya, Eko. Apparently there's 2 separate novelizations of FRIDAY THE 13TH PART 3. The first one written goes off on weird tangents that aren't in the movie. They published it, then hired another guy to write a more faithful tie-in. I'd kill to get my hands on the first one.
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post #30 of 126
10/28/09 at 3:37am
I am a sucker for the old slasher movies. I like them all. No matter how dumb they are I find some kind of joy in watching them so I'll take Halloween 4, 5 or 6 over H20. At the time I was a fan of all of those post-scream horror films (probably because of the total lack of ANY horror for several years) but looking back at them I can't say I enjoy any of them these days. Wes Craven's New Nightmare doesn't even hold up for me anymore. Something about the horror of the 90's just misses the mark. Someone should start a "New Nightmare" thread, I'm curious what others think.
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post #31 of 126
10/28/09 at 3:57am
They just played part 4 and 5 on AMC.Even cut all to hell for TV part 4 really isn't complete shit but part 5...thats another story.
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post #32 of 126
10/28/09 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyler View Post
They just played part 4 and 5 on AMC.Even cut all to hell for TV part 4 really isn't complete shit but part 5...thats another story.
Is H5 the one where they drop the cargo net on Michael like he's Wile E. Coyote?
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post #33 of 126
10/28/09 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
Is H5 the one where they drop the cargo net on Michael like he's Wile E. Coyote?
Well it was a chain link cargo net, but yeah...

And I'll side with H20 purely for the fact that I believe every kill once Michael gets to the private school is an homage to a kill in H1 and H2.
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post #34 of 126
10/28/09 at 11:44am
There are only two (unless you count the offscreen offing of Little Man Tate), but okay.
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post #35 of 126
10/28/09 at 1:38pm
Yeah, Sebastian. Imagine my surprise when I found out that I've been reading a book that goes upwards of $90. I also have the novelizations for part II and part III. Part II has an extra death in it, and I really liked part III because even though I liked the movie, I think the novelization is a take off of the Nigel Kneale script. Its not that gory.

I'd love to get my hands on that Friday The 13th Part 3 book as well.
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post #36 of 126
10/28/09 at 3:10pm
This is the one I'm talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Friday-13th-Pa...6753350&sr=1-1

Check out that awesome cover! For as low as $51.29!
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post #37 of 126
10/28/09 at 3:20pm
I can live with 4.

5 and 6 are almost unwatchable.

H20 is watchable despite the presence of Herr Hartnett.

I still have never seen the one with Busta.
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post #38 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:18pm
HALLOWEEN 5 and 6 deserve some appreciation for being baffling and ludicrous and wrong-headed on every level. You can really make an endless laundry list of absurdities between the two films. It's like every single decision was the wrong one.
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post #39 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:33pm
Thread Starter 
Seen 6: Producer's Cut? I actually like it quite a bit. Has fourty minutes of extra/alternate footage, and is basically a completely different movie (with a real score, not horrible guitar riffs).

Plus it introduced Paul Rudd to the world!
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post #40 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Nothing subversive about Halloween? Hmmm, there's the aforementioned psycho-sexual relationship has with Laurie (even before she was determined to be his sister, there's still something bizarre about a dude wanting to "penetrate" her in more than one way).
That isn't "subtext". Halloween capitalizes on the same equations between sex and death (and violent male reactions to burgeoning female sexuality) that had been around since the Lugosi Dracula and were portrayed most vividly (at the time) in Bava's Blood and Black Lace. Carpenter's film is exceedingly well made, but there's nothing groundbreaking or subversive about it. It contains the same sexual iconography that any film with a masked man penetrating teenagers with sharp objects will contain.
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post #41 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
Hmmm. Um, how about the fact that Laurie is the virginal "survivor girl" but smokes pot with Annie? Well, she makes a face the whole time...
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post #42 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:50pm
H5 and RESURRECTION are the only entries in the series so far that I've found to be completely unwatchable.

I've long been an H6 apologist. There's really no rational reason for me to differentiate between it and the other two. It has all the same ridiculous Mythology of Michael Myers bullshit. It has not just a bad ending, but no ending (which isn't improved in the producer's cut, but only done differently). It has some utterly horrifying stock supporting characters (the dad, and even Kim Darby as the mom). But it's also so gleefully violent (maybe moreso than any other in the series), and it has Paul Rudd making for an unusually sympathetic Hero Guy, and it's skillfully shot, that I have no problem coming back to it.

Some impressive resumes among the credits, too. Donald Pleasence and Paul Rudd, of course. And also Kim Darby, who was in TRUE GRIT. And directed by Joe Chappelle, who went on to be a producer and director for THE WIRE. Take that, Leo Rossi and Michael Pataki!
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post #43 of 126
10/28/09 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Seen 6: Producer's Cut? I actually like it quite a bit. Has fourty minutes of extra/alternate footage, and is basically a completely different movie (with a real score, not horrible guitar riffs).
Oh, I've seen it alright. That's where Michael is defeated by drawing a line on the floor and he transfers all of his evil to Loomis.
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post #44 of 126
10/28/09 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
Oh, I've seen it alright. That's where Michael is defeated by drawing a line on the floor and he transfers all of his evil to Loomis.

Whoa! What? Fucking don't make me track this down now!
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post #45 of 126
10/28/09 at 5:04pm
Did I mention that it is revealed that Michael sired Jamie's baby through ritualistic druid rape?
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post #46 of 126
10/28/09 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
Whoa! What? Fucking don't make me track this down now!
Eh, it's actually sort of depressing when you realize it was the last moment of Pleasence's career before his death. I still prefer no ending at all to that ending.
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post #47 of 126
10/28/09 at 5:25pm
This scene clearly cements Halloween 4 as the winning sequel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCkeW1mgRho

Haha...kids.

(Also, as an added bonus, the clip includes some Action Loomis complete with slo-mo dive!)
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post #48 of 126
10/28/09 at 7:34pm
I feel like H4 is much more in line with Carpenter's film, but H20 also makes a nice bookend as well because of Jamie Lee's strong performance. That performance, though, is really the only great thing about the film. The movie tries to emulate Carpenter's slow build, but doesn't do much that's interesting. H4 is a sequel (or remake) that actually feels like it's set in the same universe as the first two movies. Loomis, the new cast (especially Danielle Harris), and the script get it right. It's no Godfather II, but it's a hell of a lot better than the fourth entry in a horror film series should be.

Also, H4 has the second best soundtrack of the films. H20's soundtrack blows. It reinforces the idea that this is isn't a Halloween sequel, but rather "I Know What You Did On Halloween 1978". This could be seen as just a minor nitpick, but that Carpenter score really helped make Michael Myers scary.
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post #49 of 126
10/28/09 at 7:46pm
I love that "Die Hard" jump that Loomis does. It's so obvious that it's a stunt double, but it's just so great.

I like Resurrection just for it being so awful. Busta Rhymes is completely shitty in his role, but provided my friends and I with the hilarious "Trick O' Treat muthafucka!" The mask was the best it's been since the second one. Part 5 has Tina the shitty annoying character that lives WAY too long, but it does have Loomis beating Michael Myers with a 2x4 while shouting "DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, MICHAEL!"

I'll be on the lookout for that Friday The 13th Part 3 novel at the used bookstores.
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post #50 of 126
10/28/09 at 9:48pm
I never got how it was so hard to recreate a normal-sized guy with a coveralls and a white William Shatner mask. HR and H20 came closest to nailing the look, though the H20 mask looks horrible. Dick Warlock from H2's probably my least favorite Michael because of that stupid slow walk. It also doesn't help that Michael shrunk about 6 inches after Loomis shot him. Plus he buttoned up the top button on the coveralls. You just don't do that, man.
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