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Halloween 4 vs. H20 - Page 3

post #101 of 126
Like Patrick, they run together in my mind.

H20 was compromised from its original intent, and I find myself constantly trying to meet it halfway. I also think it's telling that its best scenes are in act one (after the title sequence), and Laurie telling her boyfriend about Michael. (Oddly, it's at least got that in common with the first; some of the best scenes are informed and enhanced by the existence of the Shape, but don't feature him overtly.)
post #102 of 126
The opening retcon in RESURRECTION felt like a bully kicking out a cripple's crutch. H20 at least ended with noble intentions - why you gotta take that away from it?
post #103 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Like Patrick, they run together in my mind.

H20 was compromised from its original intent, and I find myself constantly trying to meet it halfway. I also think it's telling that its best scenes are in act one (after the title sequence), and Laurie telling her boyfriend about Michael. (Oddly, it's at least got that in common with the first; some of the best scenes are informed and enhanced by the existence of the Shape, but don't feature him overtly.)
I wonder if Michelle Williams leaves this off her indie-cred resume now.
post #104 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
But what are you suggesting H4 has over II?
Everything in the world save Dean Cundey.
post #105 of 126
No really, what's good about Halloween 4?
post #106 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
HALLOWWEN IV has the sheriff's daughter with the amazing rack who doesn't have the decency to take her top off before being killed.
Hey, don't blame her. The character does take her top off, but the powers that be (including the actress, perhaps?) film it in a way to where it's suggestive over explicit. Still, we do get a glorious butt shot from Kathleen Kinmont, who is still going, and going well these days.
post #107 of 126
Ms Kinmont has gone nude in subsequent roles. (Yes, I checked.)
post #108 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
No really, what's good about Halloween 4?
Pleasence. Harris. The chick who plays Rachel is likable. For an 80s slasher sequel, the script is quite good. The ending.
post #109 of 126
Such passion!
post #110 of 126
Halloween 4 is the best movie in the whole universe.

Why can't this switch to Halloween 5? I'm way more vehement in my hatred of that film than I am in liking H4.
post #111 of 126
I like the opening credits sequence of Halloween 4, that montage of small town Halloween imagery. Sets the mood..for something that doesn't follow.
post #112 of 126
Forget the plot and character gripes with Halloween 4 & 5. Can we all agree that the mask looks like dogshit in both movies? I've seen better Shape masks in Halloween Town U.S.A.
post #113 of 126
Watched IV again last night. Fucking Hell, it's shot like a TV movie about cancer patients. Some fun Myers carnage, but it's not good, at all. II at least has the Haddonfield hysteria scenes going for it, and Pleasance being much livelier in the Loomis role before he got all that cellulite on his face.
post #114 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
Forget the plot and character gripes with Halloween 4 & 5. Can we all agree that the mask looks like dogshit in both movies? I've seen better Shape masks in Halloween Town U.S.A.
Not only the mask, but they try and bulk the stuntman up with padding to the point where he looks like a fat Michael Myers, the "Out Of Shape", if you will.
post #115 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
Not only the mask, but they try and bulk the stuntman up with padding to the point where he looks like a fat Michael Myers, the "Out Of Shape", if you will.
Right. By the time they got to Curse of Michael Myers it looked like The Shape had spent the last 5 years hiding out in a Wendy's stockroom.
post #116 of 126
Thread Starter 
I have such a strange relationship with these movies. I'm so fascinated by the "mythology" the movies set up, not because it's well written but because it's obviously mandated by Moustapha Akkad & co.

Take a look at Halloween 4: I started this thread defending it and I still do, but it's a horribly compromised beast. The Friday the 13th movies, by comparison, had little to no continuity and were horribly acted and written, but at least they were fun and lacked baggage. H4, from the get-go, is saddled with maintaining a formula. Not only is H4 seemingly a remake of the original (Michael escapes while being transferred between institutions, Dr. Loomis goes to Haddonfield to warn people, Michael kills everyone to get to family, shocker ending), but it insists on keeping Dr. Loomis and the family angle.

What were they thinking, in 1988 after the success of the F13th and Nightmare on Elm Street movies, that a franchise showcasing an old man and a little girl would hit with teen audiences? As well, there is far too much screenwriting gymnastics involved to get Jamie Lloyd into the exact same position her mother was ten years earlier. Laurie is killed off (faked her death?) unceremoniously offscreen, and Jamie is adopted by...the Carruthers? Are we to assume that Laurie, her husband (Jimmy from H2?), and both their sets of parents died in one big car crash together, and that there were no surviving relatives?

Which, just to point out the inanity of the later sequels, Halloween 6 introduces a Strode family (I believe the father would have been Laurie's adopted father's brother) that moves into the Myer's house. So they couldn't have adopted Jamie back in 1988?

Why would the producers of a slasher series insist on such convoluted continuity? I'm sure the average teenager in 1995 was befuddled by Jamie Lloyd, the Man in Black, Thorn, and all that nonsense.

The later movies are not to be held against H4, however, which was an attempt at making something of value out of an obvious cash-cow. I'll give the movie this, it's the first time it feels like Halloween night. No offense to the original, but the trick 'r treaters are there and gone once the sun goes down, and once Laurie and Tommy carve the pumpkin it could be any time of the year.
post #117 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
No offense to the original, but the trick 'r treaters are there and gone once the sun goes down, and once Laurie and Tommy carve the pumpkin it could be any time of the year.
It was more about the anniversary than the holiday, narratively speaking.
post #118 of 126
Thread Starter 
True, but what I've always appreciated about Michael Myers is his (thematic, not literal) connection to a holiday with such symbolism behind it. Loomis's speech in two perfectly sums that up:

"In order to appease the gods, the Druid priests held fire rituals. Prisoners of war, criminals, the insane, animals... were... burned alive in baskets. By observing the way they died, the Druids believed they could see omens of the future. Two thousand years later, we've come no further. Samhain isn't evil spirits. It isn't goblins, ghosts or witches. It's the unconscious mind. We're all afraid of the dark inside ourselves."

Unfortunately the later movies took that far too literally. Actually, H2 takes it too literally, as Michael uncharacteristically writes "samhain" on the wall at the school. I never believed Michael himself was overly concerned with the history of Halloween, but that the nature of the holiday was a catalyst for him.
post #119 of 126
Man, this thread is making me seriously consider re-watching the Halloween sequels out of curiosity. I barely remember anything about the later ones and now I'm getting morbidly curious.

I'm sure no good can come of this.
post #120 of 126
The big problem that I've always had with Halloween 4 is the abrupt shift in the nature of Haddonfield.

In the first film, though we know the action occurs in Illinois, Haddonfield feels like it could be anywhere in the US, with a sort of idealized small American town feel. This might be due to the fact that it was shot in South Pasadena, which has a total Mayberry/Anytown kind of vibe, and which to this day still looks and feels the same as it did in 1979 (I pass by the Michael Myers House [now an office!] and Laurie Strode's Parents House almost everyday, and its really trippy).

The setting gave the impressions that you might run into to The Shape on your way home, no matter where in the country you lived.

Halloween 4, by contrast, is ridiculously specific as to its Midwestern Farmer setting (which actually gives the impression that Haddonfield was uprooted from some place close to Chicago, and dumped into a farther corner of the state), completely defeating the tension of the setting in the original. It just introduces another layer between the film and the audience, making it way harder to relate to than it should be.
post #121 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Benenson View Post

Aside from the original all I know is that I really like Halloween II and feel it's underrated, and kinda love Halloween III and wish they'd followed that blueprint from then on. Everything after that is shit which, as Bradito points out, all blends together.



Hate to be the guy to bring back an old post and all but I've been running into a lot of these "Halloween II is underrated" folks, these days, and I fail to see how it is. If anything, it's extremely overrated. In terms of crappy sequels, it gets off the easiest when it in fact, really brings nothing new and takes so much away. The later sequels have a lot more baggage to work through. This one is basically Carpenter trying unsuccesfully to drive his own creation into the wall so he's not stuck making sequels over and over again.

 

post #122 of 126
Thread Starter 

Watched H20 again for the first time in years. The girlfriend is a big fan of the first movie and she hadn't seen this one.

 

I've learned to deal with the idea of soft reboots these last couple of years, and that continuity doesn't really matter; story matters. With that in mind, there's some strong character work on display here and a fascinating First Act dealing with survivor's guilt. There's a real sense, as well, of the older generation stepping back in to reclaim their Hollywood, as Jamie Lee Curtis does some of her best work here. There's an obvious affection for the character of Laurie, but it's also a real opportunity to rebuild a character from scratch as it's been twenty years and Laurie has been through so much she's a completely different person.

 

Unfortunately the Scream-generation pokes its head in during the Second Act. The teenagers are relatively bland characters, even if great actors like Michelle Williams and Josh Hartnett are occupying the roles. Hey, it was early in their careers, and they at least have screen presence if very little in the way of story arcs. John learns to...trust his mother, I think.

 

The music, heavily borrowed from the first two Scream movies (and Mimic, of all things) is overbearing and lacks the subtlety of the first two movies. There are far too many jump-scares accompanied by blaring horns.

 

Michael also looks off. Too little, the eye holes are too big, and the body language is lazy and not mechanical enough. Better than some of the sequels, but Michael is too clean. In fact the entire movie has an air of artificiality. Miner doesn't know how to stage dynamic blocking, and most of the time actors are just standing around in rooms talking. The camera clumsily follows Michael without any grace or sense of mystique. 

 

There's some attempt at atmosphere, as Phil pointed out above, but the movie feels as lost as Michael himself. He's relatively lacking in motivation here: is he out to kill John to punish Laurie, like the discussion of Frankenstein hints at earlier in the film? Or is he grabbing anyone in the vicinity until Laurie shows her face? In the original movies he was either recreating the death of his first sister (1963) with a babysitter or with his other sister, so going after John doesn't jibe with that. At least Jamie Lloyd was a girl, and in many ways the fourth movie implies Michael sees himself in her (and perhaps once to pass his curse to her). 

 

Fortunately the Third Act battle saves the whole film. I admit when Laurie grabs the axe and goes back to confront Michael I got chills, and her stealing Michael's body to finish the job is the kind of thing we always yell at movie characters to do in horror films.

 

Kudos to the film for tackling and subverting common horror tropes at the beginning and end, but the middle feels like filler. 

 

Halloween 4 is still the winner. It's cheese, but it knows what it is and tries to amplify the first movie rather than imitate it. 

post #123 of 126

My rankings of the Halloween follow-ups....

 

1. Halloween 2 (1981)

2. Halloween 3: Season of the Witch (1982)

3. Halloween: 20 Years Later (1998)

4. Halloween 4: The Return of Michael Myers (1988)

5. Halloween 2 (2009)

6. Halloween (2007)

7. Halloween 6: The Curse of Michael Myers (1995)

8. Halloween: Resurrection (2002)

9. Halloween 5: The Revenge of Michael Myers (1989)

post #124 of 126
Thread Starter 

What brought this on, Bob? I know as the year's end approaches I get the urge to list. 

 

1. Halloween II (2009)

2. Halloween 4: The Return of Michael Myers (1988)

3. Halloween 2 (1981) 

4. Halloween: H20 (1998)

5. Halloween 666: The Curse of Michael Myers (1995)

6. Halloween 3: Season of the Witch (1982)

7. Halloween: Resurrection (2002)

8. Halloween (2007)

9. Halloween 5: The Revenge of Michael Myers (1989)

post #125 of 126

H2

Halloween II

Halloween III Season of the Witch

Halloween 5

H20

Halloween 4

Halloween (2007)

Halloween 6

Halloween Resurrection 

 

Yep, I'm the guy who kinda likes Halloween 5.

post #126 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

What brought this on, Bob? I know as the year's end approaches I get the urge to list.


That and reading over the list in general.  I guess I just felt like adding my two cents.

 

I love H2 & H3.  I really enjoy H20 and H4, though I don't find either to be perfect.  Zombie's Halloween 2 is flawed, but still quite enjoyable.  After that things get really rocky.  There are parts of the remake and H6 that I love...............but almost as much within that I dislike.  H5 and H8 are a total wash though.

 

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