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Halloween 4 vs. H20 - Page 2

post #51 of 126
I sort of agree about Busta Rhymes in HR. As shitty as the movie is, this scene is pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ7IK9cY4D0
post #52 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Seen 6: Producer's Cut? I actually like it quite a bit. Has fourty minutes of extra/alternate footage, and is basically a completely different movie (with a real score, not horrible guitar riffs).

Plus it introduced Paul Rudd to the world!
Dude, you're so Clueless.

Rudd does give it the ol' college try, doesn't he? I remember when he was on The Daily Show (Kilborn era) promoting Romeo + Juliet, and Kilborn mentioned Halloween 6. Rudd looked like he would rather swallow bees than admit he was in this movie. I'm sure fourteen years on he's probably mined some good humor from this sparkling addition to his resume.

Fun Fact: On their shared opening weekend, HALLOWEEN 6 outperformed DEVIL IN A BLUE DRESS at the box office. Both were beat by the second weekend of SEVEN. I only mention this because I was working at a theater at the time, and we loved to joke about The Shape being a bigger star than Denzel. We were such cards, we were.
post #53 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene (Mr.Eko) View Post
I love that "Die Hard" jump that Loomis does. It's so obvious that it's a stunt double, but it's just so great.

I like Resurrection just for it being so awful. Busta Rhymes is completely shitty in his role, but provided my friends and I with the hilarious "Trick O' Treat muthafucka!" The mask was the best it's been since the second one. Part 5 has Tina the shitty annoying character that lives WAY too long, but it does have Loomis beating Michael Myers with a 2x4 while shouting "DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, MICHAEL!"
He seems to have a difficulty killing rappers in addition to Danielle Harris.
post #54 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
There are only two (unless you count the offscreen offing of Little Man Tate), but okay.
Well, it's not just the kills. Lines of dialogue (Janet Leigh's "I guess we're all entitled to one good scare."), even the way scenes are staged are homages to the first two films. Like the scene with Laurie teaching a class and Michelle Williams seeing Michael through the window is like the scene in H1 with Laurie in class seeing Michael through the window. They even have Laurie's hard breathing at the end of the film in place of Michael's. All that fan service really did it for me.
post #55 of 126
I gave H2O a spin a while back, and it's ok, but the kills in it suck, and it's too short with long bits of bore. The finale brings it up a tad, but not enough to make it a fun flick. Resurrection was a fun flick for me because it's so terrible. It's well shot though. I'll give it that. The Casey Affleck looking weirdo was funny too.
post #56 of 126
Thread Starter 
Halloween: Resurrection is pretty bad, but it did do something very smart: the fakeout of Michael having a bad childhood (the baby chair with chains, the pit in the basement) that turns out to all be a hoax by Busta Rhymes was pretty clever.

Unfortunately Rob Zombie was not so clever, and proceeded to give Michael a bad childhood...

In defense of the 6:PC, I don't believe Michael's evil was transferred to Loomis. I believe Wynn was Michael's guardian, and Wynn's role was passed on to Loomis. Still not a good ending. I actually prefer the ending of the theatrical cut when Michael rebels against the cult and kills them all. If only the two cuts could have been combined...
post #57 of 126
For me the star of Halloween is Dean Cundey, and he's the reason H2 (and really, The Fog) are at all watchable. I'm not saying Carpenter NEVER made a good movie without Cundey, but there's a connection.

Never mind the cult bullshit of 4-6; 75% of H20 feeling like a worthy follow-up is the fact that whoever shot it at least tried to copy Cundey's shooting/lighting style to some degree. 4-6 never really bothered to do that.
post #58 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dross View Post
Well, it's not just the kills. Lines of dialogue (Janet Leigh's "I guess we're all entitled to one good scare."), even the way scenes are staged are homages to the first two films.
And doesn't Laurie go: DO AS I SAY!!!!! like 7000 times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I'm not saying Carpenter NEVER made a good movie without Cundey, but there's a connection.
Interesting point. And I submit that the connection works both ways. Cundey went on to do fine work for people like Spielberg when he started working in the big leagues. But none of those films really have the style and texture of the work he did for Carpenter. Jurassic Park and Gremlins are well-shot, professional looking films. But you look at something like The Thing and specifically admire the visual composition.
post #59 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
And I submit that the connection works both ways.
See also: The Beatles, George Lucas & Gary Kurtz, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Halloween: Resurrection is pretty bad, but it did do something very smart: the fakeout of Michael having a bad childhood (the baby chair with chains, the pit in the basement) that turns out to all be a hoax by Busta Rhymes was pretty clever.

Unfortunately Rob Zombie was not so clever, and proceeded to give Michael a bad childhood...
This made me laugh.
post #60 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
And doesn't Laurie go: DO AS I SAY!!!!! like 7000 times?

Just a couple.
post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
She was just warming up for her masterful portrayal of Darian Hallenbeck.
Holy shit, that is her, isn't it. Damn, she's pretty good in that too. Seen what she looks like these days? Damn (in a good way).
post #62 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
Holy shit, that is her, isn't it. Damn, she's pretty good in that too. Seen what she looks like these days? Damn (in a good way).
She also spent time as Steven Seagal's niece. She took a bullet meant for him. Sonsabitch Screwface must pay!

Of course Halloween 4 and Marked for Death were both helmed by Dwight Little, who also made Rapid Fire and then kind of petered out after Murder at 1600. He was much more comfortable with guns. He did sneak in a massive (one sided) gun battle at the end of H4. I love when a movie comes to the conclusion that dropping somebody down a well is a viable way to handle the situation. Suppose it doesn't happen often, but the Chuck Norris classic Silent Rage comes to mind.
post #63 of 126
Seagal wanted her to be treated like the President Of The United States.
post #64 of 126
Yeah, it's great when he bullies that doctor played by all star Earl Boen.

That's my favorite Seagal, when he's just bullying and browbeating everybody in the picture.

Hallowen 4 vs. H20. No brainer. I'll take Marked for Death.
post #65 of 126
Then as Seagal and Keith David leave the hospital they play that epic music!
post #66 of 126
Going off topic but, yeah, I love how Vern refers to that particular moment in Marked For Death as "The Look". When the two heroes share a silent moment where the audience knows that heavy shit is about to go down.

Bringing it back to Halloween 4 - I had forgotten Dwight Little directed that piece. The fact that the finale plays more like something out of a Cannon picture makes more sense now.
post #67 of 126
I finished reading the Halloween IV novel earlier, and then skimmed my dvd of the movie just for kicks. I'll be watching Halloween III tomorrow or Saturday afternoon.

The book is definitely from an earlier draft as it still contains the stalking sequence in the school that was edited out and put in H20. It also has Michael Myers being hit several times by the truck at the end. Also Sasha Jenson's "Brady" character gets his teeth knocked in with the butt of the shotgun. Other than that it's just minor differences.
post #68 of 126
I love Halloween 4. Fat Michael Myers with shitty mask and all. I guess I just prefer Donald Pleasance pursuing The Shape over Jamie Lee Curtis. H4 definitely has its share of problems and I certainly wouldn't call it a great film but H20 never really interested me. It's competently-told and well-photographed but the story itself bores me. There's something threatening about Michael in H4 that just isn't present in H20. I really feel like Rachel and Jamie are being terrorized. They keep landing in what seems to be a safe spot for them but along comes Michael to kill everyone around them. It takes a lot of suspension of disbelief on the viewer's part to get there but it worked for me. H20 from the very start feels more like a vehicle for JLC's big Ripley in "Aliens" moment where she faces her fear head on. There's a scene with Josh Harnett and the keys that is apparently supposed to be the big suspense moment that sort of nods its hat at the original scene of Laurie banging on the door as Michael slowly catches up to her. I never really feel as though Michael is a threat at all to these kids. We have LL Cool J who is kind of the wild card as we don't know if he'll live or not, you have the two best friends who are obviously done for, but the three others (Curtis, Harnett, and Michelle Williams) all more or less seem like they are going to make it through. It's like watching Neve Campbell in a Scream movie or Jennifer Love-Hewitt in "I Know What You Did Last Summer".
post #69 of 126
I recently threw HALLOWEEN 4 on an Amazon order because it was 4.99 and I'd get free shipping. I'm not a fan of the film, but its got audio commentary with Danielle Harris!
post #70 of 126
My god Halloween 4 is awful. It plays like a Lifetime movie about a little girl being stalked by a crazy killer. And I can't be the only guy embarrassed for Donald Pleasance.
post #71 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
My god Halloween 4 is awful. It plays like a Lifetime movie about a little girl being stalked by a crazy killer. And I can't be the only guy embarrassed for Donald Pleasance.
This is true.

Of course H20 is like a Dawson's Creek episode where they make one of the parents the main character. And those episodes are even stupider then normal Dawson's Creek episodes.
post #72 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
And I can't be the only guy embarrassed for Donald Pleasance.
HALLOWEEN 5 is the worse performance. Though I kind of like 5 better, retarded as it is. At least it has some flair. HALLOWEEN 4 is just turgid and drab.
post #73 of 126
The climax of Halloween 5 has Donald Pleasence dropping a big metal net onto Michael Myers and beating him unconscious with a two by four. Is there a more fitting bit of imagery to illustrate how fucked this series became? I think not.

And having rewatched Halloween 4, the original debate of the thread is more absurd than ever to me. 4 and 5 are two of the most artless pieces of crap I've seen within a franchise.

III was a neat idea with some effective set pieces and some sweet 80s Cundey shootin'. Not sure why the villain vanishes like Ben Kenobi, though.
post #74 of 126
There is artfulness in HALLOWEEN 5. I mean, the director is French for Christ's sake. It's just bad art.

I mean, c'mon, that knife/pumpkin carving credit montage was cutting edge for 1989. Pun intended.
post #75 of 126
post #76 of 126
Super excited for the whole thing, Phil.
post #77 of 126
Halloween 4 was decent, but for the sake of this debate I prefer H20. For some crazy ass reason I saw it 3 times in the theater (not out of aburning desire, but because I was with different friends who hadn't seen it each time).

Halloween 5 is the worst of the series.
post #78 of 126
Love the set! Also, I had never heard that wack-a-do Jamie Lee Curtis pitch before. Awesome.
post #79 of 126
I'm watching the original HALLOWEEN II 'cause tis the season. It's really a shit film. It does come the closest in replicating the feel of the original and it's the only sequel that manages to do this, obviously due to Carpenter's involvement. But it's proof that there was only one film of material for this concept. It's slow and dull, with long stretches devoted to the stalking and killing of characters you give fuck-all about, like the security guard. And a cat jumps out of a dumpster. And characters you want to see killed (bitchy nurse, Bud the stud) either get killed off screen or in shadow. It's just an uninspired slog and isn't even half as entertaining as some of the lesser FRIDAY and NIGHTMARE sequels. It's only plus is the lingering Carpenter feel.

Also, the Samhain druid bullshit starts here. (It's also in the novelization of the original film as an explanation for Michael's evil) You can't totally fault the writers of part 6 for taking that ball and running with it. It must have seemed like the only thread to grasp on to. In fact, pretty much everything that sucks about the franchise has its beginning here.
post #80 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
I'm watching the original HALLOWEEN II 'cause tis the season. It's really a shit film. It does come the closest in replicating the feel of the original and it's the only sequel that manages to do this, obviously due to Carpenter's involvement. But it's proof that there was only one film of material for this concept. It's slow and dull, with long stretches devoted to the stalking and killing of characters you give fuck-all about, like the security guard. And a cat jumps out of a dumpster. And characters you want to see killed (bitchy nurse, Bud the stud) either get killed off screen or in shadow. It's just an uninspired slog and isn't even half as entertaining as some of the lesser FRIDAY and NIGHTMARE sequels. It's only plus is the lingering Carpenter feel.
I give less credit for that lingering feel to Carpenter than I do to the following three words: Dean Muthafuckin' Cundey.

Quote:
You can't totally fault the writers of part 6 for taking that ball and running with it. It must have seemed like the only thread to grasp on to. In fact, pretty much everything that sucks about the franchise has its beginning here.
Fun fact: The guy who wrote Halloween 6 (when he was 24!) wrote and produced that 4 hour Elm Street doc on DVD.
post #81 of 126
Thread Starter 
So I watched the directors cut of the remake of Halloween II the other day, and I have to say it actually handles the revelation of Laurie being Michael's sister much better. Incorporating the sister angle into Zombie's remake of the original just pointed out plot holes in the original (too much of a coincidence that Laurie goes by the Myers house, and Michael recognizes her), but the remake actually milks a good performance of Scout Taylor Compton.

In the original II, Laurie is doped up the entire film, so she's a non-character. Her being doped up somehow brings out repressed memories of her asking her mother about being adopted, and seeing Michael in the mental institute. Was that actually supposed to have happened, or did Michael and Laurie share a psychic connection?

I like the inclusion of the psychic connection in the remake, as it takes the ball introduced in Halloween 4 (that that murderous gene runs in the family) and explains it in more reasonable, ambiguous terms than "druid cult did it". It's either that Michael is being haunted by his mother's ghost, and she's endowing him with such horrific power, OR (and I prefer this idea) he's so filled with fury that it's not only swelled his body with hate, rage, and evil to ridiculous proporations, but also projects his evil outward onto Laurie, like a psychic taint. There's even a third option that Laurie's struggling at the end of the remake is a shared hallucination she and Michael share, prompted by the trauma of the night and her reading of Loomis's book.

I think the remake doesn't get enough credit. The director's cut even adds an interesting subplot about What Would Michael Do? shirts sold on the internet, and the fan that rants to Loomis at his book signing. The fan seems to be Zombie's portrayal of rabid fans of the original movies. The fan even says "Michael is so much better than those other guys" followed by a long pause, then "Dahmer and that bitch Bundy" implying that the other guys could be horror movie icons like Freddy, Jason, Leatherface. I think that character works much the same way as the movie critic discussing Marx brothers movies in The Devil's Rejects.

Unfortunately, although it's a beautifully shot film and creates a real, bleak sense of dread, it's horribly written. Some of the actors pull it off (Danielle Harris, Brad Douriff, the therapist, Compton to a degree), but "fuck" must be said like five hundred times and these characters are so quick to vulgarity that it doesn't sound natural.

/rant
post #82 of 126
Thread Starter 
And when I say "plotholes of the original" I mean the plotholes that the sequels retroactively added.
post #83 of 126
I have a soft spot for Halloween 4, it has some great gory cheesy moments, and the ending with Jamie standing there with the bloody knife in the clown costume was fantastic. And of course the 'JAMIE'S AN ORPHAN!' moment always fills me with glee.

H20 was less ridiculous and better made but in my mind that made it less entertaining. It kind of plodded along, although the last 20 minutes did get significantly better. But honestly I'll watch anything where Michael does the confused puppy head tilt, love it.
post #84 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
And of course the 'JAMIE'S AN ORPHAN!' moment always fills me with glee.
One of my favorite moments in cinema history.
post #85 of 126
I've not watched these in forever. Is IV the one with the goofy LAST HOUSE-style cops, or is that V?
post #86 of 126
4 has a hillbilly lynch mob. The original Haddonfield grazing up against the Zombie version. Halloween 5 turns the old Myers house into something from 1313 Mockingbird Lane.
post #87 of 126
I recall IV being somewhat effective in my early teens. This troubles me.
post #88 of 126
Yea, I haven't watched any of the sequels all the way through since high school but 4 was always my favorite of them. I'm not saying it was great film it's just that the others are so damn bad.

Even H20 I could never get into.I like that it really did try to be more like the original by building tension slowly and trying to create suspense rather than going for the more typical slasher style splatter-fest, but something about it just never worked for me. Even now I don't remember much about it other than LL Cool J and the last 20 minutes that everyone else seems to love too. Maybe I should give it a re-watch this year.
post #89 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
I've not watched these in forever. Is IV the one with the goofy LAST HOUSE-style cops, or is that V?
That's 5, with actual keystone cop whistles and horn sound effects on the soundtrack to illustrate/echo their lack of authority and usefullness.
post #90 of 126
By 5 and 6, the series was really just so noticeably weighed down by all of the crazy twists to the story that the sequels kept incorporating. That being said the presence of Donald Pleasance as Loomis at least made them watchable trainwrecks. H20 never once made me interested in anything that it had to offer. It was comendable for them to try and clean up the continuity clusterfuck that was the last handful of sequels but it just never drew me in at all to the characters. And then it stuck us with the even worse Ressurrection.
post #91 of 126
Semi-watched 4 again today while napping. It's a completely counterfeit Halloween movie. Really remarkable how little attention they paid to what made the first, and to a lesser degree the second film work. They don't even try to do Cundey. Bye bye anamorphic. Haddonfield looks nothing like it did. Michael's now a hulk, the mask is wrong. There isn't even a slow pan towards a jack-o-lantern opening. The only thing they bring back is the name Michael Myers (and I'm sorry, that dude is not Michael Myers) and Loomis. As a rote 80's slasher movie it's fine (and it really doesn't deserve much credit for this as it was 1988 and the subgenre was well past it's due date) and it has some fun moments, but the Myersless part 3 feels more like a "Halloween" film than this. And the franchise never gets it back from this point on.
post #92 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
and to a lesser degree the second film work.
Except Halloween 4 has characters you actually give a shit about, making it infinitely better than Halloween II. It may not have Cundey, but H2 proved he can't save a bad slasher sequel.
post #93 of 126
I can't even remember any of the characters in Halloween 4. And I watched it like 3 months ago.
post #94 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I can't even remember any of the characters in Halloween 4. And I watched it like three months ago.
Preach on, Brother Phil. I suppose Dark Shape is referring to Danielle Harris, but she's hardly even a character. She's a dwarf who lives in an air-duct*. And can't compare to Mrs. Lee Curtis.

*Or was that sequence in part 5? They kind of blend together for me.
post #95 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
*Or was that sequence in part 5? They kind of blend together for me.
Part 5, again. I only remember this because I watched 4 and 5 multiple times very recently, just to hear the commentary tracks.
post #96 of 126
HALLOWWEN IV has the sheriff's daughter with the amazing rack who doesn't have the decency to take her top off before being killed. That's, uh, all I got.
post #97 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
Preach on, Brother Phil. I suppose Dark Shape is referring to Danielle Harris, but she's hardly even a character. She's a dwarf who lives in an air-duct*. And can't compare to Mrs. Lee Curtis.

*Or was that sequence in part 5? They kind of blend together for me.
Part 5. And it seems silly to argue Halloween II even has a protagonist, considering Laurie spends the first hour drugged up while the film miserably crawls forward offing exceptionally boring people. Halloween II's a flick that coasts on look. It has absolutely nothing else.
post #98 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post
Part 5. And it seems silly to argue Halloween II even has a protagonist, considering Laurie spends the first hour drugged up while the film miserably crawls forward offing exceptionally boring people. Halloween II's a flick that coasts on look. It has absolutely nothing else.
I agree (well, the look and the score). But what are you suggesting H4 has over II? There's just nothing there at all. II is a disappointment, considering those involved; 4 is a pantomime.
post #99 of 126
I liked 4 and 5 alright when I saw them in the theater. But revisiting them years later I was kind of astonished at how utterly boring they are.
H2O promised so much and delivered so little.
post #100 of 126
As nondescript as IV was, I remember V being a total nosedive into outright awfulness. It's probably why IV is recalled more fondly than it should be.
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