The cult of the stillborn

Whaaat?

No Stelios, it's a rather severe case of WHAT THE FUCK?

Having watched Grace last night, I'd just like to add, fuck that!

How has Facebook not taken this down yet?

A little?

How does one stumble upon this?

I haven't actively searched for it, but doesn't Facebook have a 'no nudity in public groups' cause? Nothing illegal about that, either.

Didn't a bunch of Juggalos throw a funeral for their stillborn baby and paint it up with Juggalo paint, or am I misremembering this?

ETA: Not looking because I don't want to google "dead baby juggalo" at work.

yes
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=36997

National Geographic wrote a story about this "group" years ago. I think I was about 7 or 8 when I read it. I sure did appreciate space and dinosaurs a lot more after that.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/182572/page/1

...if you're actually curious about the thought process behind it. I think it's horrible, but I don't share the experience, so what the fuck do I know, honestly.

Put your cynicism away for a sec. I can't even get my head around that.

Wanting to share it with a group of strangers is where it gets off-putting to me, but again, I can't identify with the experience in any real way.

Yeah, that kinda hit me in the heart. I don't want kids, generally can't stand 'em, but that's gotta be the worst feeling in the world.

You know, I can seomwhat understand the thought process and the grief someone has to go through, especially since I have a boy now, but the whole christening a dead baby is fucking wrong, creepy and unhealthy to the parents who lost their child. And in private, maybe, to help the healing, but the whole show is ridiculous.

I dunno, people do some pretty unhealthy shit when they grieve. Substance abuse, self-harm, etc. It's not for me to judge, because I've never really lost anything on that level, especially considering how much planning and how much people can dedicate their entire lives to anticipation of a child, only to have it suddenly yanked away by a weird twist of fate/chance/whatever. I saw this on a personal level with a pair of friends and their first child (and also, we all saw Anakin's Dad's ordeal with Anakin which was outlined here on the boards), and my friends' second child is such a huge part of their life now that I can't imagine the level of grief and hurt they went through the first time around regardless of how healthy and beautiful their second child is.

I don't know if Facebook and other similar sites have made people retarded or if it's just turned on the blacklight in the motel room.

I'm the guy in my group whose parents died first, so I sort of became the de facto grief counselor for my circle of friends. And one of the things I tell people who need to talk about losing someone is that no one else can tell YOU how to grieve, that short of hurting yourself or other people, there's no "wrong" way to do it.. So that means even when I see something that is morbid and creepy to me, I have to hang onto that belief - death is fucking huge, and it's not on us to tell other people how to cope with it.

And honestly, the people making a big public show about it are probably narcissistic, drama queen assholes the rest of the time anyway.

The sharing with strangers on goofy social networking site is what amazes me. Folks grieve how they need to, but I'd hate for someone to just tweet my eulogy, or dot it into one of their updates. "BTW Egg's done. Had some awesome pizza today."

PhilsPhrend omg, Phil requested they play the gayest shit at his funeral
28 minutes ago from grievetweet

There are a LOT of people who feel the need to advertise their grief/malaise in as public of a forum as possible. Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that the group only has 242 members.

Also if I was a bigger cunt than I actually am, I'd join and post on the wall asking for preferred recipes.

This. I have been the King of the Oversharing with Strangers club, especially on CHUD, but even I realize that sometimes people just want attention from anyone. I was with you on the grief thing for the most part, but I have to land in this column in the end.

The old Christian (or at least Catholic) belief was that babies that died befroe they were Chrsitened could not go to Heaven, but ended up in a realm called Limbo. I'm lapsed to the point that I don't know if the church even half heartedly still believes this, but if some followers do, I can imagine that being the animus behind christening the kid (althoguh I question whether a retro baptism complies w/ the rules). But as someone said earlier, do that shit in private. If it's really about the spiritual well being of the child, doing it in public & making a big show of it does no one - least of all the kid - any good.

I have to agree with Egg on this one. I can't even imagine how horrible it must be for those poor parents. You see how wrapped up people get with all the planning and anticipation - some after trying for ages to get pregnant. So it's not for me to judge, I've never been there. But it really does creep me out. And it's way creepier to put pictures on the internet. Sharing the story of what has happened - as Anakin's Dad shared with us - is one thing. But a site dedicated to dead baby pictures - it's disturbing to me, I have to admit. But then again, how would I know how that feels? Sure, I've lost people, but I've never wanted pictures of them in their coffins, etc. (although, as the Newsweek article correctly points out, that was a very common practice way back when). But I also can't imagine the pain of wanting that new life so badly, only to have it taken away before you even get a chance to see that baby.

I think part of the need for this derives from this sacredness we as a society have attached to bearing children. It is of course a wonderful thing, and one of the best experiences of anyone's life. And on an evolutionary level, it is ultimately why we're all here, right? But films & TV shows have made this the be all end all (how many dramatic attempts/failures do we see at getting pregnant, or adopting kids, on EVRY medical & legal drama on TV? PARTICULARLY so with ABC's "Private Practice"?) of all existence. An entire generation of Boomers & now X'ers has been conditioned to believe that they are not and CANNOT be fulfilled without they pass on their genes and raise a kid.

Gotta disagree with this. Breeding's been in since cavepeople were fucking. They might not have attached as much personal importance/personal growth/idealism to it, sure, but it was still happening. If anything, people have become more open to the idea of not having kids within the past few generations.

I tend to agree with this. While Facebook is a public forum and the group can be viewed by the public, the group is designed for those folks. With the advent of modern medicine, stillbirths probably aren't all that common anymore, and people may not have anyone nearby who has suffered through a similar ordeal. Facebook allows them to connect and share, and that may be a big part of their grief process.

But yeah, the pictures are pretty tough to look at.

I'm speculating, but the group aspect - for good or ill - might be an outgrowth of the need to know you're not the only goddamn weirdo doing it.* I wonder if any of these parents are surprised by this urge to record their kid's brief existence, and seeing that it's "common" is a bit of a salve for that surprise at their own behavior.

*Which doesn't necessarily validate something - see your local LARP groups or the serial killer convention in the Sandman comics.

Some people deal with grief privately and others seek comfort in the group. I find some of those pictures disturbing but this is probably just the natural evolution of the group process in our technologically driven world.

Hooray TEH INTERNETS!

What a hero.

No kidding. Instead of letting the emails of these clearly emotionally beaten women go by the wayside, this winner decided to get in a pissing match. Stay classy, blogosphere...

Yeah, that's so unbelievably shitty.

I dursen't look at the actual Facebook page, so somebody tell me: don't they have to worry about decomposition? How long are they keeping them above ground?

They just have the photo shoot and then they bury them. They're not freeze drying them or anything.

Sidebar: The White Castle I used to hit up as a teen had its parking lot right next to the stillborn section of the graveyard. Rows and rows of plastic markers that said "Baby Boy Schultz" and "Baby Girl Flaherty" and such. Eerie sight.

Very eerie, and very common way back in the day. My mom - who's 78 now - had a sister who died at 18 mos., a handful of years before my mom was born. So the baby died somewhere around 1922 for the sake of argument, so she was born roughly in late 1920 - and back then, because infant mortality was so high, they had a whole "Child and Baby" section of the local cemetary (not just our area, I'm sure - I believe this was very common everywhere back at that time). And because they died so young and there were so many of them, only the wealthiest families bought actual headstones. Most of the baby grave markers were just flat little stone discs in the ground with a number. You wanted to find your kid? You had to go to the cemetary office and have them looked up so you could find that number. And worse, the babies aren't with the parents in the main cemetary - the babies are in the baby section, totally seperate. My grandparents are in the main section of the cemetary, and my mom's sister is waaaay over in the baby section, no where near them.

Finally, years later as an adult, my mom tracked down which numbered-disk was her sister's. They found her, and my mom bought her an actual headstone with her name, birth date and death date. Even so, she's one of the few babies in that part of the cemetary that actually have a real headstone.

I like to think of sites like this as the internet at its very best. As Phil mentioned in an early post, most social groups will have someone who has lost a parent or a sibling, but few will have someone who has lost a child. Losing a child bucks the natural procession of life. The internet gives people the chance to share with someone who understands what they are going through, something that might not exist in their usual social circle. Their method of grieving may be off putting, but these pictures are all they have to celebrate and mourn the passing of their child. My wife and I are so very grateful that we have over 3500 pictures taken of Anakin while he was alive, a luxury many of the parents of children with his diagnosis were never afforded.

The internet was our savior in a way. When the doctors came to us with a fatal diagnosis, Thanataphoric Dysplasia, we were at a loss. We knew they said we were going to lose our son, but coming to terms with a diagnosis you can barely pronounce is next to impossible. Fortunately, we were educated (which was a little intimidating to the doctors once we unleashed the fruits of our research upon them), and had access to a ton of material as grad students. Our research in turn led to us reaching out for a means of comfort through the social aspects of the net (the wife through families that had gone through similar situations and me through CHUD and some other connections). Shit like this will drive you certifiably crazy, and we’re still dealing with PTSD 16 months later. You do what it takes to get by. For some people that’s curling up and crying for days on end, and for others its cherishing and sharing the few photos you have that marked the short time you had with your child.

So please guys, put away the cynicism, mockery, or general disdain and let these poor people be.

have to agree with Anakain's Dad and Phil on this. You build up a lot of hopes and dreams, activities you want to do with your kid, etc. when expecting, so losing that child creates a massive void in your life. This can be made even worse when you have been struggling to get pregnant for a while as well. So, people need to have an outlet for their emotions and a way to try and correct that void.

The worst you could do is hold the emotions in, so at least they have found a way to communicate their feelings and get it out. People keep ashes of loves ones around for a reason too.

Ok, no offense meant at all to "Anakin's Dad." At all. Seriously.


But... when I saw Jake's initial mention I though it was a fucking Star Wars joke or something, and I sat there for a good minute thinking, "well, I don't get it. We never even saw Anakin's dad, and according to the characters, he may have been miraculously conceived. Maybe he meant 'Luke's Dad.' But that doesn't make sense either."

It wasn't until obviously later in the thread that I realized my ignorant mistake.


I pretty much agree with Phil. Yes, it's weird, super weird to see this stuff. And I'm really big on keeping as much of your grief as possible out of the "public eye."

But I also cannot fathom that level of grief. At all. So... being not big on judging people, I'm not going to levy much of it at these poor people.

I kind of go the other way - back in the day people, as a rule, had oodles of kids. And I think the caprices of life were more accepted. So when li'l Timmy fell into the grain thresher (this is not stillborn, but bear with me...), it was less of a big deal because people were prepared for awful shit to happen, and they had 5 or 6 other kids, anyway.

These days, most couple have one, maybe two kids and that's it. The "value" of each individual child is thus greater to the parents, if not to society as a whole.

The difference between the way you and your wife coped with your loss, which is probably how most people in this unfortunate position would, is you took pictures of your child while he was alive, and have those to cherish and grieve with (and yes, I understand that if the child is stillborn they aren't afforded that option). The folks on the site under discussion took pictures of their dead children and posted them on the web, which is a far cry from say, joining a message board or on line support group of people in like circumstances. I think we'd all agree the latter are healthy ways to work thru your grief. But taking & displaying the pictures these parents did may not be.

Yeeeeah, think I'll defer to Anakin's Dad on that one.

Wait - isn't that exactly what they did? Their group was infiltrated by someone who really had no business being there. It's like an atheist walking into a church and criticizing what the people inside are doing. What's so hard about staying the fuck out?

I know it's SomethingAwful, but I really hope whoever did that feature dies of an exploding dick.

Iggy, you really should just drop the issue.

There's probably a biological imperative influencing the parents' behavior as well. When a woman is pregnant, her body chemistry and brain impulses actually change and compel her to behave maternally. It's why women are compelled to "nest" their home a day or two before birth. This doesn't just go away immediately if a child is lost. Apes and other mammals have been observed carrying a stillborn or recently killed baby around for days. They are still biologically compelled to be a parent. I'm sure most mothers (and by extension, fathers) feel the same compulsion.

Just to clarify: I wasn't posting the SomethingAwful link because I thought it was funny. I'm with you guys on this stuff. I just remembered reading that back in 2004 when I saw this thread and figured it would generate more discussion.