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Tim Schafer Should Never Make Another Videogame

post #1 of 134
11/2/09 at 8:41pm
Thread Starter 
http://tinyurl.com/yk8go2t
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post #2 of 134
11/2/09 at 9:05pm
Though I wouldn't go so far as to say he shouldn't make another game, he really needs to step up the gameplaying experience without losing the aspects that make his games so unique (characters, story, etc.). I described Brutal Legend to my friend as an animated movie with some game parts thrown in, almost as an afterthought.

I'd seriously love to see him take a crack an animated films. He and PIXAR seem like a match made in heaven, and a Tim Schafer movie would be a welcome change of pace from the cookie cutter, talking animal drek we're usually subjected to.

BL's not bombing outright, but it's not doing massive numbers and I feel like a lot of reviewers are giving it a higher rating than it deserves simply because it's a Tim Schafer game.
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post #3 of 134
11/2/09 at 9:11pm
"Tim Schafer should be the conceptual and spiritual architect of video games but should get better coders and gameplay mechanists to handle the technical design functions."

Title Fixed.
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post #4 of 134
11/2/09 at 9:57pm
I feel like if we got Schafer in a room with Naughty Dog, we'd have the Game of the Year in development in about 45 minutes.
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post #5 of 134
11/2/09 at 10:26pm
I never had any problems with Psychonauts. I thought it played pretty great, actually.
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post #6 of 134
11/2/09 at 10:41pm
I never got the complaints with Psychonauts, either. I don't think that it played any worse than any other platformer out there, and the only level that really claimed my life more than once was the final meat circus level. But I chalked that up to being, you know, the final level, and thus the most challenging. Psychonauts is definitely one game I was never frustrated by, and I always have fun playing it.
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post #7 of 134
11/2/09 at 10:55pm
The actual mechanics of Psychonaught were okay, the gameplay was just a little boring.

I do think if he made an animated flick, it might be awesome, he always has some strange esoteric idea up his sleeve.
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post #8 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:02pm
Given how fanboyish gaming media can be, that article title is like a nuclear bomb.

I get the feeling that he has these wonderful ideas that he is unable to express to anyone, resulting in a distorted product.
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post #9 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:03pm
I've yapped a lot about this game in it's dedicated thread. I quite like the game as a complete package. Music and Art are a big part, but I find the gameplay fun too. It will be one of my favourites for the year, even compared to Uncharted 2 (I'm playing bothe titles about 50/50 right now).

Having read a bunch of reviews, I's say the average is about 8 out of 10. Maybe Tim Schafer will never quite knock it out of the park with a 10 out of 10 game. I'd rather have quirky flawed games than none at all.

Also if Tim Schafer did comics, I's imagine it would be like Doug TenNapel.
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post #10 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:04pm
Psychonauts is one of the best games ever. If you disagree I will hunt you.
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post #11 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:20pm
I wanted Brutal Legend to be kind of like Ocarina of Time via Heavy Metal. Open world. Metal themed dungeons.
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post #12 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:25pm
Thread Starter 
You know, of all the games being made into movies his could be done fairly effortlessly, especially if they were animated. The concept, the art, the voices are all right there. I would kill for him to direct an adaptation, or even something original.

Brutal Legend's problem is that there's not nearly enough story to support the lackluster gameplay. Hell, there's not even enough dialogue- I can't believe that I found myself skipping sections simply because the characters would repeat the same thing over and over before ambushes and such. It's just not right, and feels like you were given half a game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady View Post
Given how fanboyish gaming media can be, that article title is like a nuclear bomb.
Really you can ignore the sensationalistic headline, it's really just a thought that popped up in my head (and even shocked me). I definitely don't want him to stop making games, I just am kind of distressed by everyone fawning over him too much over a disappointing package. Tough love and all that, you know...
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post #13 of 134
11/2/09 at 11:47pm
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Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Really you can ignore the sensationalistic headline, it's really just a thought that popped up in my head (and even shocked me). I definitely don't want him to stop making games, I just am kind of distressed by everyone fawning over him too much over a disappointing package. Tough love and all that, you know...
You know that I love the headline, it's ballsy (especially when gamers are by far the least intellectual of media consumers). He (if he had final say) should be taken to task for a clearly inferior game.
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post #14 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Brutal Legend's problem is that there's not nearly enough story to support the lackluster gameplay.
The game's problem is that it's a mess.

The multiplayer game is actually very good. Assuming you like to play console RTS(with action and spell casting bits). I'm mainly playing the AI (trying to unlock the artwork for the other factions) but I'm really getting used to it as I ramp up the computer difficulty.

The single player drops two well thought out factions from the multiplayer, along with the strategic bits that make the multiplayer work well. Then it adds the open world driving/exploring bits, plus a bit of the hack n slash elements from multiplayer. This resulting gameplay is a mess and yes it's stretched over a campaign that's too short to be satisfy the gameplay experience or the needs of the plot.

The reason I do like the game is the art, music and humour gives it consistancy that the gameplay lacks. Secondly, a little of the inventiveness from the multiplayer sneaks through in the RTS sections (specifically double teams and solos) that makes it (IMHO) fun.
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post #15 of 134
11/3/09 at 9:27am
Can't speak for Brutal Legend, but for their gameplay flaws (which I think are often overstated - Psychonauts wasn't amazing but was mostly pleasant enough, and GF's biggest problem was some excessively obtuse puzzles, not the controls) none of Schafer's other games would've been more satisfying had they not been interactive experiences.

Schafer could probably do well in another medium but there are thousands of well written books and films out there brimming with creativity and imagination, but not so many games. Given that he's one of the few out there who always at least tries to create major games with those qualities I'd rather he kept trying even if he doesn't strike gold every time.
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post #16 of 134
11/3/09 at 9:51am
I hardly think one shitty game means the guy should stick just to making up stories.

Psychonauts played fine, save for a really frustrating final level, and all this endless bitching about Grim Fandango's controls has me completely perplexed. For my money, the "drag the mouse to tug Guybrush along" scheme in the current Monkey Island mini-series is far, far worse than using the arrow keys to navigate a prerendered environment. Like Chrome just said, the real problem with Fandango was one or two truly obtuse puzzles, but that's a problem with the genre, not the game itself.
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post #17 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Really you can ignore the sensationalistic headline, it's really just a thought that popped up in my head (and even shocked me). I definitely don't want him to stop making games, I just am kind of distressed by everyone fawning over him too much over a disappointing package. Tough love and all that, you know...
You do realize that you were leading the fawning charge before the game was released, right?
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post #18 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:16pm
Before the game was released, it looked like it was going to be fucking great. You can't really blame him.
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post #19 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:22pm
I think Schaefer's problem has ALWAYS being that he tries to innovate in all areas of his games and make them unique and interesting, and it ends up biting him in the ass when this choices break the gameplay.
If Brutal Legend had been a snadbox, mission based "God of war" clone with the same humor and style, no one would be complianing; Schaefer just went and said "Noooo, its not enough that it looks and sounds new and original, the gameplay must also be different!".
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post #20 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:24pm
I love how A-Pathetic is Alex's biggest detractor. It's just funny seeing pop up hear ad there to take weird shots at him.

If Brutal Legend comes out the way it was advertised to the public and then it's a GOTY contender. But it turns out there was an element of bait and switch. Alex reported on what he saw and made (what everyone sees) logical statements based on the evidence. It's not his fault the devlopers mislead everyone.
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post #21 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Before the game was released, it looked like it was going to be fucking great. You can't really blame him.
I was excited for the game, played the demo and cooled on it considerably. There was a shitload of hyperbole flying around, grandiose statements about how in a fair world everybody would be buying this game and not whatever run of the mill junk was being released. Lots of frothing over the game, not a lot of perspective. I'm just saying it feels a little bit disingenuous to give the game such a massive hall pass before it was released only to come back and write this story afterwards.
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post #22 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:28pm
You think it's disingenuous that someone that was really excited for the game then goes back and honestly says it wasn't very good after playing it?

That makes zero sense.
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post #23 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:38pm
I'm trying to wrap my head around that and it's just not working. Someone changing their tune on a highly anticipated game with a COMPLETELY MISLEADING DEMO, leading to the final product throwing a weird-ass gameplay curveball that confused the hell out of a lot of people is disingenuous?
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post #24 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady View Post
I love how A-Pathetic is Alex's biggest detractor. It's just funny seeing pop up hear ad there to take weird shots at him.

If Brutal Legend comes out the way it was advertised to the public and then it's a GOTY contender. But it turns out there was an element of bait and switch. Alex reported on what he saw and made (what everyone sees) logical statements based on the evidence. It's not his fault the devlopers mislead everyone.
Detractor? Weird. This is the oddest forum in all of CHUD to me because there's really no standard apparently. When I read a review of Alex's and it makes me interested in a game, I say as much. I'm not quite sure why pointing out when he's stepped in it is a bad thing though.

It's interesting that you can disagree with Devin and call him out on something and nobody thinks twice. God forbid you do the same thing to Alex in the video game forum though, regardless of how true it is.
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post #25 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:39pm
Because your "calling him out" makes no fucking sense.
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post #26 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Because your "calling him out" makes no fucking sense.
Actually, all I originally did was point out that Alex was fawning over Schaffer more than anybody when the game wasn't yet released. It seems really strange to hear him now trying to point out how wrong it is that others are fawning over him. If I was bored enough, I'd go through and pull out quotes from the Brutal Legend thread but it's really not worth my time.

From that one sentence though it didn't take you long to jump in did it?
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post #27 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:44pm
Do you come from a planet where people aren't allowed to be disappointed?
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post #28 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:46pm
Because other people are at this point giving a lousy game a pass just because it's Schafer. THAT'S what he's talking about.

Also, you might have not noticed since you've got serious reading comprehension problems, but I posted BEFORE you did in this thread to disagree with Alex's article. So I didn't "jump in" on anything.
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post #29 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady View Post
If Brutal Legend comes out the way it was advertised to the public and then it's a GOTY contender. But it turns out there was an element of bait and switch. Alex reported on what he saw and made (what everyone sees) logical statements based on the evidence. It's not his fault the devlopers mislead everyone.
They knew nobody would like the RTS stuff. What makes it doubly weird (and which is still kind of baffling) is that they must have known that early on, because it doesn't show up in any of the marketing.

And yeah, shame on Alex for having pre-release opinions.
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post #30 of 134
11/3/09 at 12:51pm
Heh. I'll leave you kids to your standard internet insults. I obviously need to visit more threads where I can detract from Alex further, rather than focusing my energies on this one.
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post #31 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:00pm
There are some truly butthurt motherfuckers around here these days.
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post #32 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:03pm
Because apparently using hindsight and re-evaluating previous opinions, no matter how fervent they may have been, is disingenuous.

I'm just going to start baiting people into meltdowns, I think.
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post #33 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Because apparently using hindsight and re-evaluating previous opinions, no matter how fervent they may have been, is disingenuous.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you and I were talking on the street. I mentioned that the donut store around the corner had a new donut out and that it was supposed to be amazing. I then mentioned that every donut I've ever eaten there was amazing, that they'd never made a bad donut.

Now you and I both go there, excited to try the new donut. We both eat it, it's okay. I'm disappointed, and I say so. Then I go on to talk about how the last dozen donuts I've eaten there have been disappointing too, even though I'd just been raving about them. What word would you use to describe my actions?

But hey, I'm just the guy with no reading comprehension who is apparently out to get Alex.
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post #34 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
Then I go on to talk about how the last dozen donuts I've eaten there have been disappointing too, even though I'd just been raving about them. What word would you use to describe my actions?
But Alex makes it clear in the article that he's still really fond of both Grim Fandango and Psychonauts.
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post #35 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:49pm
Taking Alex to task for changing his opinion on a game OR on a designer is ridiculous. So what? He's not a paid shill for the company, he's a reviewer giving his honest opinion on something. He delivers the goods around here and he's usually totally on target with his opinions, so cut him some slack.
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post #36 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
But Alex makes it clear in the article that he's still really fond of both Grim Fandango and Psychonauts.
Maybe YOU can't read, Trevor. Ever think about THAT?
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post #37 of 134
11/3/09 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Maybe YOU can't read, Trevor. Ever think about THAT?
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post #38 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
But Alex makes it clear in the article that he's still really fond of both Grim Fandango and Psychonauts.
Wait, wait, wait... hold off on that hate mail for just one second. Here's my rationale: all of the recent games the man has developed have been lackluster.

As experiences, mind you, they're nearly unparalleled (at least until Brutal Legend... more on that later), but as games themselves they're mediocre.

Yeah.
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post #39 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:06pm
I think you're missing the nuance where Alex tries to differentiate 'experience' from 'game.' Game being the mechanics and 'experience' being the world and story and complete package.
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post #40 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:07pm
Reading comprehension!
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post #41 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:08pm
Well I think we can all agree that Alex is wrong about Psychonauts being a mediocre game.

Yes Alex, you're wrong! Wrong wrong wrong!
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post #42 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post


Just in case trevor knows Braille.
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post #43 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus-7 View Post
Well I think we can all agree that Alex is wrong about Psychonauts being a mediocre game.

Yes Alex, you're wrong! Wrong wrong wrong!
I don't think as a platformer it really does a whole lot new though. I mean the mechanics and abilities and basic setup are all pretty standard. The real strength of Psychonauts is in the balls out level design you encounter. Again, that's sort of dividing the "game" from the overall experience.
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post #44 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 
Well if it wasn't clear, I really love Grim Fandango and Psychonauts. C'mon, if Psychonauts starred (INSERT SPACE MARINE NAME HERE) trying to fight (INSERT EVIL ALIEN BENT ON DESTROYING THE WORLD HERE) and used the same engine and platform mechanics, no one would ever have played it or talked about it. We all know what made it special.

Another thing about Brutal Legend- I played the game months before the demo was ever released, a somewhat extended demo that showed off a bit of the driving around, meeting Ozzy and raising a relic. I was stunned then because I didn't expect the open world environment, and loved what I saw. I had no idea about the RTS elements, and this is when I was talking to a bunch of the marketing folks pretty regularly!

I really haven't read any reviews of the game because I'm still writing mine but I've heard all the Editor's Choice Awards and such that the game has received, and it's ridiculous. It's probably going to get a 7 from me, and that's just because I'm such an easy mark with the story and music.
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post #45 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:20pm
*edit- replying to Brad.

True, it doesn't tread much new ground, but there isn't really a "weak link" either, which is pretty surprising considering the variety of levels and some of the curveballs they throw at you, like the Godzilla-type stage, which did go on a bit long.

All the platforming is really solid, and most 3D platformers can't say that, even today.
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post #46 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:21pm
I think a better comparison would be if Psychonauts featured (INSERT CUTE ANIMAL MASCOT HERE). I can't imagine a platformer like that featuring a grizzled space marine. I'd talk about that if it came out.
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post #47 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:21pm
Maybe its a bit crass to ask this, Alex (feel free to ignore it if it is, then) but i cant help but wonder how you skeptical yourl look at any future Schaefer projects now, as a reviewer and journalist, will be.
Brutal Legend's real gaming mechanics werent clear to gamers and press much, and the demo did not show the real core gameplay of the game.
(i know this is like asking if you will believe any Fable 3 Molyneux hype statement)
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post #48 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:22pm
I love how Tim Schafer's name develops a new spelling with almost each new thread.
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post #49 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
I think a better comparison would be if Psychonauts featured (INSERT CUTE ANIMAL MASCOT HERE). I can't imagine a platformer like that featuring a grizzled space marine. I'd talk about that if it came out.
Werent the original Duke Nukem games like that?
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post #50 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
I love how Tim Schafer's name develops a new spelling with almost each new thread.
Im from Chile...i think the spelling mistake is a subconcious way to avoid typing it like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Sch%C3%A4fer
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