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Tim Schafer Should Never Make Another Videogame - Page 2

post #51 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:26pm
Maybe, it's been so long since I've seen the original Duke Nukem games. I thought they were more like Contra type run and gun games?
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post #52 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:31pm
Yeah, they were run-and-gunners. I kinda miss all those funky old Apogee games, but I know that's nostalgia speaking because as soon as I loaded one up I'd think "fuck, this looks awful" and stop, and that's if there are even any computers old enough to run them.
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post #53 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:32pm
Thread Starter 
They weren't nearly as frantic or linear as Contra, but yeah, similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
Maybe its a bit crass to ask this, Alex (feel free to ignore it if it is, then) but i cant help but wonder how you skeptical yourl look at any future Schaefer projects now, as a reviewer and journalist, will be.
Brutal Legend's real gaming mechanics werent clear to gamers and press much, and the demo did not show the real core gameplay of the game.
(i know this is like asking if you will believe any Fable 3 Molyneux hype statement)
My anticipation will definitely be more reserved but honestly, an original game by Schafer will always get me excited. I just really hope he listens to the criticisms and puts more thought into the gameplay next time.

The other thing that will make it hard to be skeptical is how the years themselves help build up anticipation. It's not like we're getting one every year, or even every three years. They've been almost events for the hardcore gamer.
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post #54 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
My anticipation will definitely be more reserved but honestly, an original game by Schafer will always get me excited. I just really hope he listens to the criticisms and puts more thought into the gameplay next time.

The other thing that will make it hard to be skeptical is how the years themselves help build up anticipation. It's not like we're getting one every year, or even every three years. They've been almost events for the hardcore gamer.
Thanks for the answer, Alex.
I still think that maybe other persons in the gaming press will feel that Double Fine wasnt honest with them by not showing the core gameplay of the game while they contributed to the hype.
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post #55 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:37pm
Fuck, I'll be more than happy to give Tim Schafer another chance after Brutal Legend. There's aspects of the game that are clearly good, the whole just isn't.

I do feel it was misrepresented before release, but I'm not sure how much of that was EA's marketing as opposed to Double Fine. Regardless, the RTS elements were still a poorly implemented idea.
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post #56 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:43pm
Which is really odd, considering the game supposedly started as a RTS.
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post #57 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:45pm
It should have either stayed as an RTS or gone straight into being an action adventure, rather than just half-assing both. I would have preferred an action adventure, something like a heavy metal Zelda, but I think it could have been a solid RTS had they decided to do that.
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post #58 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:46pm
A recent revisiting of Grim Fandango says the controls aren't game-breaking, but they're occasionally infuriating.

Especially around elevators. Sometimes you'll leave one, only to try turn left and get locked into a re-entry animation. Over and over.

When was the last time you played it, Brad? I never remembered the controls being particularly frustrating, but a fresh look at the game (which still looks and feels great) definitely reveals some fiendish plan to destroy the fingers of a generation.
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post #59 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:51pm
A couple of years ago, actually.
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post #60 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:51pm
Thread Starter 
It's just annoying to play an adventure game that forces you to stay glued to the keyboard. One click to get to the next room is much preferable to holding down arrow keys, hoping you don't get caught up on some scenery.

Completely agreed with Brutal Legend picking one style and sticking to it. Or at least, if they had made the RTS elements deeper, it would have worked wonders. There was a valiant attempt to fit the story around the RTS mechanics with all the new characters and such but it really fell apart and cheapened the whole experience.
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post #61 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
Wait, wait, wait... hold off on that hate mail for just one second. Here's my rationale: all of the recent games the man has developed have been lackluster.

As experiences, mind you, they're nearly unparalleled (at least until Brutal Legend... more on that later), but as games themselves they're mediocre.

Yeah.
I can doo bold faced

Grim Fandango is simply one of my favorite games of all time, one of the deepest and most well-told stories ever put into a videogame.

But what a disappointing doughnut that was!

Honestly, I can see people getting burned from the hype, but that's just a dumb analogy.
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post #62 of 134
11/3/09 at 2:55pm
I'm not saying Grim Fandango's control scheme is IDEAL, I just don't think it was really the most frustrating part of the game. The fucking racing ticket puzzle was.
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post #63 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
I can doo bold faced

Grim Fandango is simply one of my favorite games of all time, one of the deepest and most well-told stories ever put into a videogame.

But what a disappointing doughnut that was!

Honestly, I can see people getting burned from the hype, but that's just a dumb analogy.
The entire POINT of his article was that maybe video games weren't his thing because the experiences were fun and the game mechanics were crap. He straight out calls the games mediocre. Seriously, you should stop trying so hard to be witty in an attempt to protect Alex when he obviously needs no protection. It's weird watching a handful of you getting so burnt up over this.
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post #64 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:03pm
It's weird watching you continue to be completely unable to understand human words.

I mean fucking seriously, how big do the letters have to be before "GRIM FANDANGO IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GAMES OF ALL TIME" actually has meaning to you like it would to a normal brain?
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post #65 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
It's weird watching you continue to be completely unable to understand human words.
Oh, look. It's the reading comprehension gag again. Whatever you do, don't actually pay attention to my point. It might hurt your sensitive areas.

I guess I'll have to edit, since you did.

I have movies that I love that are not well made movies. They are movies that I enjoy, but that doesn't make them well made or even good per se. Alex is certainly free to love Grim Fandango and Psychonauts, and why not? There's lots to love. He loves them IN SPITE of their flaws which he then recognizes.

I know in Brad-land that large bold letters carry more weight, but for all your jokes about reading comprehension I'm really not sure you read his article. You can love a game which you acknowledge is mediocre, which is exactly what he says. It doesn't make the game good, it makes the overall experience good and enjoyable.
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post #66 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
I'm not saying Grim Fandango's control scheme is IDEAL, I just don't think it was really the most frustrating part of the game. The fucking racing ticket puzzle was.
Or the many mechanical puzzles involving chains. There were plenty of frustrating puzzles, but that's normal for a game of this type.

The elevators on the other hand would occasionally suck you in as you tried to walk past due to some poor mapping. Then you'd get out at the other side to go back in only to find the door had glitched shut.

These weren't things that really bothered me when I first played it because it was so different. Now though, it's definitely weak design. There's not a single aspect of it that benefits from not using a conventional control scheme.

It's still an absolutely gorgeous game though. Even the apparently maligned soundtrack, now just feels like part of something really wholesome.

I've always thought the thing that generally stops people playing Schafer games is the fact he gives them such advertising-unfriendly names though.
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post #67 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
Oh, look. It's the reading comprehension gag again. Whatever you do, don't actually pay attention to my point. It might hurt your sensitive areas.
You don't have a point. You keep misinterpreting everything anyone else has said, even when it's plain as fucking day, and then you claim that's somehow a point. That's not a point, that's you being a retard. I'm sure you're very proud of yourself and all, but it's pretty funny on everybody else's end.
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post #68 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:08pm
Also, Grim Fandango insists on many occasions that you really experience ladders in the most wonderous ways.

By having to climb up and down each individual rung of the biggest ladders ever conceived at a snail's pace. You have to hold the keys down whilst doing so too. Why not just cut to the next scene after a few rungs?!
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post #69 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I've always thought the thing that generally stops people playing Schafer games is the fact he gives them such advertising-unfriendly names though.
I honestly think it's just that Grim Fandango and Psychonauts were both released basically during the death throes of their respective genres. Grim Fandango came out when adventure games were all but withering on the vine, and Psychonauts came out years after platformers were viewed as anything but quick cash-ins for Pixar or Dreamworks movies.
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post #70 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
The puzzles in Grim Fandango didn't faze me that much, but then again, I had already played through Monkey Island 2. That fucking game.

Who doesn't like Fandango's soundtrack, though? That just seems bizarre.
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post #71 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:11pm
His most successful works have "Monkey" in the title. Everyone loves monkeys!

If it were called Monkey Fandango it'd have sold a billion copies.
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post #72 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
The puzzles in Grim Fandango didn't phase me that much, but then again, I had already played through Monkey Island 2. That fucking game.

Who doesn't like Fandango's soundtrack, though? That just seems bizarre.
A few reviews at the time laid into it. It's aged supremely well.
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post #73 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
You don't have a point. You keep misinterpreting everything anyone else has said, even when it's plain as fucking day, and then you claim that's somehow a point. That's not a point, that's you being a retard. I'm sure you're very proud of yourself and all, but it's pretty funny on everybody else's end.
I find it interesting that you have to keep resorting to name calling. I'd say I've been pretty civil considering how many times you've attacked me without actually paying attention to what I've typed. I'm curious to see whether this crawls out of playground mentality but I'm not betting on it.
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post #74 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
The entire POINT of his article was that maybe video games weren't his thing because the experiences were fun and the game mechanics were crap. He straight out calls the games mediocre. Seriously, you should stop trying so hard to be witty in an attempt to protect Alex when he obviously needs no protection. It's weird watching a handful of you getting so burnt up over this.
I'm all burned up about your dumb posts, A-Pathetic. If only there were a doughnut analogy to help describe my rage!
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post #75 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
I'm all burned up about your dumb posts, A-Pathetic. If only there were a doughnut analogy to help describe my rage!
Oh, look. Trevor tried to be funny again.
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post #76 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:15pm
Is this guy for real, or have I fallen for some kind of infinite loop trap?
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post #77 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Is this guy for real, or have I fallen for some kind of infinite loop trap?
Maybe its like that movie "Cube", only that each room contains only Trevor.
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post #78 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:18pm
Yes, a delicious doughnut shaped trap.
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post #79 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:20pm
Man I could go for a doughnut right now.

Also, for me, the hero in Schafer's body of work will probably always be Full Throttle. Love the shit outta that game, crappy Road Rage segments and all.
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post #80 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:22pm
Yeah, Steam needs to include Full Throttle in one of their Lucasarts nostalgia dealies.
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post #81 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
After proving I'm an imbecile on page one, I must resort to trolling
Then why not just stop posting?
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post #82 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette View Post
Man I could go for a doughnut right now.

Also, for me, the hero in Schafer's body of work will probably always be Full Throttle. Love the shit outta that game, crappy Road Rage segments and all.
If only Telltale could get the rights, then get Schafer as a creative director...I'd pay 60 bucks for that.
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post #83 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Yeah, Steam needs to include Full Throttle in one of their Lucasarts nostalgia dealies.
Heard rumors that it's in the next pack. Hope so- haven't played that one in years.

And yeah, Telltale bringing "Tales of Full Throttle" or something would be amazing.
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post #84 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Then why not just stop posting?
Jesus, really? We're resorting to fake quotes to show how funny we are? Obviously I must be the one trolling.
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post #85 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:47pm
Listen: If you'd said "You can tell by his articles that Alex bought into the hype surrounding the game, which is a shame considering how bad it
turned out," then you wouldn't have sounded nearly so foolish. Instead, baby used big boy words like "disingenuous" to prove a point that made no sense, and then got sensitive when all the mean people yelled at him.
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post #86 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Heard rumors that it's in the next pack. Hope so- haven't played that one in years.

And yeah, Telltale bringing "Tales of Full Throttle" or something would be amazing.
I dunno, it just wouldn't be the same without Roy Conroy doing the voice of Ben.

The intro to Full Throttle was just about the most badass gaming thing my 14-year-old brain had seen at the time.
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post #87 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:56pm
You can certainly hear strains of the Joker in Hamill's Adrian Ripburger.

Hehe. "Ripburger".
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post #88 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Listen: If you'd said "You can tell by his articles that Alex bought into the hype surrounding the game, which is a shame considering how bad it
turned out," then you wouldn't have sounded nearly so foolish. Instead, baby used big boy words like "disingenuous" to prove a point that made no sense, and then got sensitive when all the mean people yelled at him.
No, it does make sense. To post repeatedly that he had earned a hall pass basically because of how great his previous games were, only to then turn around after being disappointed by this game with an article stating that maybe he should move to another media because his last few games have been mediocre is fucking disingenuous. Quit trying to protect Alex already, and for the love of god quit trying to be funny because it isn't your strong suit.

It doesn't make his opinions overall not worth reading. I have no hatred of Alex, although I'm sure it's hard for you to see that through your frothing. But in this particular scenario? The word applies. But by all means, keep hurling the insults. It's easier than discussion.
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post #89 of 134
11/3/09 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
You can certainly hear strains of the Joker in Hamill's Adrian Ripburger.

Hehe. "Ripburger".
"Your ears are fine! its what's between them that scares me!"


Right there, I thought this game was going to be great...and then Ben ran over the limo and the music started....perfect.
Also, i learned years later that the limo's chubby cherub that ben destroys is supposed to be Schafer.
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post #90 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
No, it does make sense. To post repeatedly that he had earned a hall pass basically because of how great his previous games were, only to then turn around after being disappointed by this game with an article stating that maybe he should move to another media because his last few games have been mediocre is fucking disingenuous. Quit trying to protect Alex already, and for the love of god quit trying to be funny because it isn't your strong suit.

It doesn't make his opinions overall not worth reading. I have no hatred of Alex, although I'm sure it's hard for you to see that through your frothing. But in this particular scenario? The word applies. But by all means, keep hurling the insults. It's easier than discussion.
Has this guy made a post worth reading since 2001? I remember him being really boring, but I never knew he was this dumb.
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post #91 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Has this guy made a post worth reading since 2001? I remember him being really boring, but I never knew he was this dumb.
Well, you went back to insults and went away from trying and failing to be funny. That's some improvement, but my asking if we'd get away from the playground mentality seems to be answering itself.
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post #92 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:19pm
Re: the demo being misleading. The things you do in the demo are the things you do throughout the whole game(drive cars, hit things with axes, double-team and play songs). The exploring and ordering troops around are obviously missing, but it simply would not have worked to throw people straight into a full RTS battle for the demo. The single player campaign doesn't even let you near one tilll near a third of the way into the game.

There was a multiplayer video released prior to release. If one crucial bit of information was missing, it's how much of that multiplayer game was in the single player.

Ultimately, if anyone feels misled, read some reviews before you buy your videogames.
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post #93 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
Well, you went back to insults and went away from trying and failing to be funny.
Still at boring and dumb. Please improve, or post less frequently.
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post #94 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:24pm
Let's move on, fellas.
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post #95 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Completely agreed with Brutal Legend picking one style and sticking to it. Or at least, if they had made the RTS elements deeper, it would have worked wonders. There was a valiant attempt to fit the story around the RTS mechanics with all the new characters and such but it really fell apart and cheapened the whole experience.
As I understand it, the multiplayer RTS bits came first. They were inspired by two games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog_Zwei and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(computer_game). The common aspect being an avatar who gets involved in the battle casting spells and fighting.

After playing a bit of the MP, I think the RTS mechanics are deep, but only in MP. The depth doesn't manifest it in single player. You don't need to be all that strategic to win.

And yeah, you could say they tried to wrap a single player story around that multiplayer game. A comment from the dedicated thread called the SP a tutorial for the MP.

However, there's still a lot of stuff to like in single player, driving around the world and exploring. If the Single player was 30% longer (or there were mini campaigns for the other 2 factions) I would have very little to complain about.
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post #96 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
If there were more than four or five missions for you to attempt, they might have had something. Instead you're stuck playing a dozen quick ambush missions that play out exactly the same.

Oh and Herzog Zwei absolutely kills this game, in terms of an action-RTS where you can control the various units. You guys gotta play that one if you haven't already.
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post #97 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:38pm
That was me that said that, because it is. In the second half of the game, I noticed that any mission that wasn't either a boring battle or a boring escort mission to a boring battle just introduces you to a new unit and their double team attack in a really simplistic way. And looking back, pretty much the whole game is like that once you get past the metal spider, which I think is the last genuinely cool moment in the game.
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post #98 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
That's fucking weird, because I said almost the same thing in my draft of my review. You finally get all the units after learning how to use them one by one in their own specific levels, and then finally get to use them all in one easy battle before the damn thing ends.
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post #99 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:49pm
Well it's pretty obvious. It's not like I hit on some grand revelation in the thread or anything.

I think if the game had continued after that, instead of just stopping dead for a lame ending cutscene, it could have still salvaged itself and been better. I mean, when you go back to Bladehenge to pick up scaffolding for the bridge, it seemed like a no brainer that the game would take me back there after defeating the goth army to liberate it from the Tainted Coil, but that never happens. It's an incredibly truncated single player experience, and I get the impression that they just wanted to make an RTS in the first place, but couldn't sell that.
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post #100 of 134
11/3/09 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
I know, it was just almost word for word.

But definitely. If they had hurried the pace of what we got and made it just the first half of the game or so, they might've had something. Instead you beat the game before you even really get into it and spend the rest of the time killing animals for the hunter and looking for those stupid dragon statues.
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