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2010 MLB offseason - Page 3

post #101 of 570
12/10/09 at 4:31pm
The only news that would really make me happy would be if that in this offseason that at some point Scott Boras was punched in the face. God am I sick of that guy.
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post #102 of 570
12/10/09 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotai View Post
What happened to Monkaholic, anyhow? Did he change his monicker or split the site?
Changed my name, kept the avatar, but the Mets being the Mets sort of puts a damper on many things.
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post #103 of 570
12/10/09 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
Changed my name, kept the avatar, but the Mets being the Mets sort of puts a damper on many things.
I'm terrible at this stuff. Good to see you're still here.
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post #104 of 570
12/10/09 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
The Mets are rumored to be making a serious play for Jason Bay, and I can’t say I’m pleased. Matt Holliday, simply put, is the better player, and unless this is a financial decision, I’m going to be pretty fucking pissed if this goes down and Holliday goes for anywhere near the same amount.
Both Bay and Holiday are both nice players, but not guys you want to spend $17 mil a year on. They are seriously benefitting from the lack of top-tier free agents this year. Holiday made his name in Colorado and totally bombed in Oakland. And I think it speaks volumes that Boston isn't strenuously chasing Bay.
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post #105 of 570
12/11/09 at 1:46pm
Yeah, Bay and Holliday are good players, but not franchise players. And they have the bad luck of hitting free agency in a bad economy, unlike Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Lee.

It doesn't help that teams have kind of figured out some new ways to value defense as well.

I'm a Brewers fan, and they've helped themselves but it's not anything really exciting. Most projections I've seen put the Brewers around 84 wins now, which probably puts them in the hunt in a weak division. They certainly paid a premium to be slightly above average and still have to do some smart bargain hunting if they really want to compete.
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post #106 of 570
12/11/09 at 2:40pm
I can't believe the Brewers paid Wolf as much as they did. He's a decent NL pitcher and will probably do okay there, but jeez. I've also heard Joel Pinero is going to command at least 10 mil a year. Suddenly that Sabbathia contract doesn't look quite so outrageous.
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post #107 of 570
12/11/09 at 3:03pm
Well, Holliday “bombing” in Oakland is relative I suppose, but let’s not go crazy over something like three months where he only hit .286/.378/.454. And as far as not being a “franchise player,” can someone tell me how often they hit the market if Matt Holliday and his career 133 OPS+ isn’t one?

I mean, I guess we’re restricting “franchise” to mean guys like Joe Mauer and Albert Pujols then, but if that’s the case, does anybody want to put odds on either ever actually becoming a free agent during their prime?

Matt Holliday is a durable, well above average corner outfielder, who’s relatively young for a free agent, in great shape, and without any off the field problems. Those aren’t a combination of attributes that hit the open market all that often, and when they do, teams tend to be happy with the results.

And more to the point, letting players like Matt Holliday, Mark Teixeira and Carlos Beltran go because you’re waiting on a “franchise player” is a good way for a large market team to field mediocrities at premium positions for years. Just ask any Yankee fan how they’ve faired in center since passing on Beltran.
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post #108 of 570
12/11/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
Well, Holliday “bombing” in Oakland is relative I suppose, but let’s not go crazy over something like three months where he only hit .286/.378/.454. And as far as not being a “franchise player,” can someone tell me how often they hit the market if Matt Holliday and his career 133 OPS+ isn’t one?

I mean, I guess we’re restricting “franchise” to mean guys like Joe Mauer and Albert Pujols then, but if that’s the case, does anybody want to put odds on either ever actually becoming a free agent during their prime?

Matt Holliday is a durable, well above average corner outfielder, who’s relatively young for a free agent, in great shape, and without any off the field problems. Those aren’t a combination of attributes that hit the open market all that often, and when they do, teams tend to be happy with the results.

And more to the point, letting players like Matt Holliday, Mark Teixeira and Carlos Beltran go because you’re waiting on a “franchise player” is a good way for a large market team to field mediocrities at premium positions for years. Just ask any Yankee fan how they’ve faired in center since passing on Beltran.
Holliday had two great years in Colorado, where like most Rockie hitters his stats benefitted greatly from playing in Colorado. Once he moved to Oakland he became just okay. His power numbers fell off and he certainly was not the franchise player they had envisioned. His numbers did improve once he moved back to the NL and started batting in the same lineup as Albert Pujols.

I'm not saying Holliday is a bad player or isn't an All-Star level player, but he is going to be paid like an elite player. Cream of the crop type money and I would argue he is not in that class. He's simply the best of what's out there.

And for the record, the Yankees did just fine with Melky Cabrera playing CF this year.
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post #109 of 570
12/11/09 at 3:35pm
And franchise players usually don't hit the FA market.
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post #110 of 570
12/11/09 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
I'm not saying Holliday is a bad player or isn't an All-Star level player, but he is going to be paid like an elite player. Cream of the crop type money and I would argue he is not in that class. He's simply the best of what's out there.
Matt Holliday may be the best OF in baseball. He's easily worth $17 million a year, and I'm sure he'll get more than that from someone. I hope like hell the Sox sign him. Only gonna cost money and a pick. They have a ton coming off the books after 2010 for the 'real' FA class, too.

Also, franchise players hit the open market quite often. It's just hard to see that from a Yankee perspective as they have the ability to keep theirs.

Lastly, the Yankees would have been fine with Billy Crystal playing CF. Bragging that they did fine with Melky. Awesome.
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post #111 of 570
12/11/09 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Matt Holliday may be the best OF in baseball. He's easily worth $17 million a year.
No offense, but that's complete horseshit.

We can argue about advanced metrics, off years, etc. but the guy but up a VORP of 35 last year, good for 61st in the majors, and ranking behind a half a dozen outfielders, many of whom also have significant defensive value. And are younger. Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp, Ichiro, Manny, Carl Crawford, Jason Bay, Shin Soo Choo, and Justin Upton, are among the outfielders that ranked ahead of him. Carlos Lee was roughly equivalent. Is anyone thinking Carlos Lee's deal is a good one these days?

Also, I think there's a good argument to be made that this is a down period for outfielders. Dave Concepcion was the best SS of the 70s, was he ever worth the equivalent of $17 million?

The guy is an all star player, but he's not one of the top 10 elite talents in the game. Not even close.
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post #112 of 570
12/11/09 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Matt Holliday may be the best OF in baseball. He's easily worth $17 million a year, and I'm sure he'll get more than that from someone. I hope like hell the Sox sign him. Only gonna cost money and a pick. They have a ton coming off the books after 2010 for the 'real' FA class, too.

Also, franchise players hit the open market quite often. It's just hard to see that from a Yankee perspective as they have the ability to keep theirs.

Lastly, the Yankees would have been fine with Billy Crystal playing CF. Bragging that they did fine with Melky. Awesome.

You are officially crazy. And my comment at Melky was directed at the guy who said the Yanks were sorry they missed out on Carlos Beltran.
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post #113 of 570
12/11/09 at 5:48pm
Outfielders comperable or better than Holliday:

Ichiro, Carl Crawford, Ryan Braun, Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp, Carlos Lee, Nick Markakis, Torii Hunter, Raul Ibanez, Nelson Cruz...
not to mention Bobby Abreu, Shin Soo-Choo, Johnny Damon, Curtis Granderson, Adam Dunn...I could go on and these are just the outfielders.

My point is not that Holliday is a bad player, I think he is quite good. Just not AROD good. Or Ichiro good. Or Mauer good. Pujols, Texiera, Utley, Jeter, Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Howard and so on and so forth. He is a good outfielder that was greatly aided by playing in Colorado.
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post #114 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:04pm
[QUOTE=Poulsonator;2774932
Also, franchise players hit the open market quite often. It's just hard to see that from a Yankee perspective as they have the ability to keep theirs.
QUOTE]

Most "franchise" players that hit the open market usually do so via trade. Usually it's because a team sucks and wants prospects in an attempt to rebuild or unload a big contract. Last year was a bit special because guys like Texiera and Sabathia became free agents because they had no roots with the team they were leaving. In other words, I would be SHOCKED if the Twins ever let Mauer get away or Pujols with the Cards or Pedroia with Boston, those types of guys are invaluable.

Occasionally you will get a player like Curt Schilling or Greg Maddux, real difference makers, become free agents. But Matt Holliday is no Greg Maddux. I think Matt Holiday is interchangeable with a lot of players who will give you similar production for a lot less.
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post #115 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
No offense, but that's complete horseshit.

We can argue about advanced metrics, off years, etc. but the guy but up a VORP of 35 last year, good for 61st in the majors, and ranking behind a half a dozen outfielders, many of whom also have significant defensive value. And are younger. Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp, Ichiro, Manny, Carl Crawford, Jason Bay, Shin Soo Choo, and Justin Upton, are among the outfielders that ranked ahead of him. Carlos Lee was roughly equivalent. Is anyone thinking Carlos Lee's deal is a good one these days?

Also, I think there's a good argument to be made that this is a down period for outfielders. Dave Concepcion was the best SS of the 70s, was he ever worth the equivalent of $17 million?

The guy is an all star player, but he's not one of the top 10 elite talents in the game. Not even close.
Last year in Oakland was tough for Holliday. No questions. But how good was he once he got to St. Louis? Was he the first person ever to have a slump?

Seriously, that's the best you have for why Holliday is no good? The affects of playing in Colorado are grossly overrated in this thread. Holliday is an elite outfielder. No scout or stats can say otherwise.
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post #116 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:23pm
Especially with that sweet catch he tried to make with his crotch in the outfield that would have won the Cardinals Game 2 of the NLDS.
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post #117 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
Last year was a bit special because guys like Texiera and Sabathia became free agents because they had no roots with the team they were leaving. In other words, I would be SHOCKED if the Twins ever let Mauer get away or Pujols with the Cards or Pedroia with Boston, those types of guys are invaluable.

Occasionally you will get a player like Curt Schilling or Greg Maddux, real difference makers, become free agents. But Matt Holliday is no Greg Maddux. I think Matt Holiday is interchangeable with a lot of players who will give you similar production for a lot less.
Nelson Cruz ain't one of them, that's for sure.

There aren't many times when a team wants to let their superstars go. Sometimes they just can't afford to keep them and are forced to trade the player / let them walk. Ultimately, it's up to the player to decide where to play. And what's with the 'roots' comment? The only roots Teix and Sabathia cared about were the kind with dollar signs.

There aren't any other people like Greg Maddux. That's a terrible comparison. Signing Matt Holliday is simply going to take money and a draft pick. That's it. He's an elite OF and should and will get paid like one.

By the way, I have never once said Matt Holliday is the greatest OF of all time or a first-ballot HoF'er, like you guys are acting. EvilTwin, you even alluded to a possible downtime in the history of the OF. Just because Matt Holliday is one of the best OF these days doesn't mean I'm making him out to be a god or anything.
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post #118 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
Especially with that sweet catch he tried to make with his crotch in the outfield that would have won the Cardinals Game 2 of the NLDS.
A sharty error made at the worst possible time, but he didn't lose the game for the Cards. Not even close. Ryan Franklin was the goat.
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post #119 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:44pm
Haha, I know. But if it weren't for that error, Cardinals fans would be clamoring for us to overpay for him so I don't mind that he did commit it. Still a frustrating error in a big game.

I think the Cardinals can get the same value by spending their money upgrading some of their other positions so I don't mind letting him walk. Plus, I don't mind getting the draft picks.

Also, anyone who signs Piniero expecting the ERA he got this season is crazy. His stats were so weird and flukey there is no way they could be sustained a second season.
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post #120 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:55pm
I think the fact that Holliday's only managed one top 10 finish in MVP voting, flawed as it is, in his career is enough to establish that he's not an elite player. He peaks somewhere close to elite, and his down year this year averages out to good, but his true value is basically all star player, but not elite.

He's a very good hitter at a position full of good hitters. He's o.k. defensively, playoff gaffe or not. And he's durable. That's worth a lot. It's not easily worth $17 million a year.
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post #121 of 570
12/11/09 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
I think the Cardinals can get the same value by spending their money upgrading some of their other positions so I don't mind letting him walk. Plus, I don't mind getting the draft picks.
The Cardinals have a bit of an issue, though, with regards to Holliday. On the one hand, do they sign him in the hopes that he comes back to not only provide help to Albert, but also to show Albert that the team is trying to add/keep pieces to win? Or do they Matt walk, use the money for other things, and hope like hell Albert resigns after contract (soon) expires?

As much as I want Mauer to stay in Minnesota and Albert to stay in St. Louis for the good of baseball, they'd be crazy not to test the waters. The offers would be obscene, and rightly so.
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post #122 of 570
12/11/09 at 7:03pm
From what I've read, one of the big reasons the Cardinals are letting Holliday go though is that they know to sign him they'd have to pay him more than Pujols is getting paid currently and that would look bad. So to avoid having to renegotiate Pujols extension this season, they'll probably hold off on signing any position players that cost more than Pujols makes per season.

Also, given the payroll targets they have, it's unlikely they'd be able to afford extended Pujols and Holliday simultaneously it makes sense that they'd focus on keeping Pujols.
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post #123 of 570
12/11/09 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
I think the fact that Holliday's only managed one top 10 finish in MVP voting, flawed as it is, in his career is enough to establish that he's not an elite player. He peaks somewhere close to elite, and his down year this year averages out to good, but his true value is basically all star player, but not elite.

He's a very good hitter at a position full of good hitters. He's o.k. defensively, playoff gaffe or not. And he's durable. That's worth a lot. It's not easily worth $17 million a year.
OK, if that's the criteria (and I added Silver Sluggers because I like them):

Matt Holliday - 1 top 10 MVP; 3 Silver Sluggers

Carl Crawford - 0 top 10 MVP; 0 SS
Ryan Braun - 1 top 10 MVP; 2 SS
Andre Ethier - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS
Matt Kemp - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS
Carlos Lee - 0 top 10 MVP; 2 SS
Nick Markakis - jack shit
Torii Hunter - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS
Raul Ibanez - nada
Nelson (HA HA) Cruz - nada again
Ichiro - Yea, we all know he's a stud
Bobby Abreu - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS
Shin Soo-Choo - ziltch
Johnny Damon - nada
Curtis Granderson - zippo
Adam Dunn - both jack and shit
Jason Bay - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS
Justin Upton - predictably nothing

There were the names in this thread. Now, if those two were your ONLY criteria, Matt Holliday is only second to Ichiro. Torii Hunter got $18 million last year. You're telling me Matt Holliday isn't worth as much? And you also said Carlos Lee was Holliday's comp last year...Lee made $19 million. Does that mean Holliday is worth as much? More?
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post #124 of 570
12/11/09 at 7:40pm
Which feeds into my point that being the best outfielder, which is debatable, doesn't tell us a whole lot. Go post the MVP finishes and Silver Slugger finishes for guys like Jeter, Mauer, ARod, Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Miguel Cabrera, and Utley. Those are the elite, the guys that are worth $17 million, and Holliday doesn't measure up with them. Compare the MVP / SS finishes of Holliday to guys like Derek Lee and Adrian Gonzalez.

And, a lot of people were saying that Carlos Lee, Alfonso Soriano, and Torrii Hunter were overpaid. As are Gary Mathews Jr. and Juan Pierre, guys Holliday is definitely better than. (And in Hunter's case he's unlike Holliday in that he's regarded as providing significant value with his Glove. I don't think adding in Gold Gloves, flawed as the process is, helps make a better case for Holliday.)

BTW, considering Ryan Braun has 2 Silver Sluggers in 3 seasons of baseball, I'd suggest he's shown more earlier than Holliday. The fact that 21 year old Justin Upton and 24 year old Matt Kemp outproduced Holliday this year is also notable.
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post #125 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Which feeds into my point that being the best outfielder, which is debatable, doesn't tell us a whole lot. Go post the MVP finishes and Silver Slugger finishes for guys like Jeter, Mauer, ARod, Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Miguel Cabrera, and Utley. Those are the elite, the guys that are worth $17 million, and Holliday doesn't measure up with them. Compare the MVP / SS finishes of Holliday to guys like Derek Lee and Adrian Gonzalez.
Adrian Gonzalez - 0 top 10 MVP; 0 SS
Derek Lee - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS


You're doing the same thing as bob loblaw. Who are you comparing Matt Holliday to? Because it makes a big difference. I mean, is it:

the current crop of outfielders that I posted, and to whom I was comparing Holliday to this whole time?

or

freaks of the game, once in a lifetime type players who will be in the HoF, no questions asked?

Can we at least compare him to fellow outfielders?? How about that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
BTW, considering Ryan Braun has 2 Silver Sluggers in 3 seasons of baseball, I'd suggest he's shown more earlier than Holliday.
And being compared to Ryan Braun isn't a bad thing. You know you can still be an elite outfielder if there are more elite outfielders, right?
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post #126 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Adrian Gonzalez - 0 top 10 MVP; 0 SS
Derek Lee - 0 top 10 MVP; 1 SS


You're doing the same thing as bob loblaw. Who are you comparing Matt Holliday to? Because it makes a big difference. I mean, is it:

the current crop of outfielders that I posted, and to whom I was comparing Holliday to this whole time?

or

freaks of the game, once in a lifetime type players who will be in the HoF, no questions asked?

Can we at least compare him to fellow outfielders?? How about that?




And being compared to Ryan Braun isn't a bad thing. You know you can still be an elite outfielder if there are more elite outfielders, right?
Derrek Lee has two top 10 MVP finishes. 2005 and 2009. Also 3 Gold Gloves, probably deserved.


And, yeah, I'm comparing him to the "freaks of the game" because that's the elite. There are always "freaks of the game". Holliday's at his peak and he really doesn't compare to those elite. We're not even pulling in guys who are past their peak like Chipper Jones. Or pitchers. Or the second tier at other positions for comparison.

$17 million is still a lot of money. Nobody is saying that Holliday isn't a very good player, but there are a lot of very good outfielders and Holliday doesn't stand out that much over a bunch of comparable outfielders and he doesn't bring much beyond his bat. $17 million, probably for 5 years, is a lot for a guy that's not elite.
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post #127 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
$17 million is still a lot of money. Nobody is saying that Holliday isn't a very good player, but there are a lot of very good outfielders and Holliday doesn't stand out that much over a bunch of comparable outfielders and he doesn't bring much beyond his bat. $17 million, probably for 5 years, is a lot for a guy that's not elite.
My bad on Derek Lee. I was thinking top 5 when I looked those up.

Anyway...

By your definitions, are there any elite outfielders then? If so, who are they? Name them all.
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post #128 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
And, yeah, I'm comparing him to the "freaks of the game" because that's the elite. There are always "freaks of the game". Holliday's at his peak and he really doesn't compare to those elite. We're not even pulling in guys who are past their peak like Chipper Jones. Or pitchers. Or the second tier at other positions for comparison.
You're confusing 'elite' with 'first ballot HoF'er'. Remember Albert Belle? He was elite. Remember Dave Stewart? He was elite. Remember Dale Murphy? He was elite. There can be stretches of being elite. Holliday's in one.

You cannot compare Matt Holliday to Albert Pujols in any way, shape, or form. Albert has no comps.
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post #129 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:34pm
IMO, Ichiro is the only one you can make a case for as elite. And even he's likely to start falling off soon. Check back in 3 years in regards to Braun, Upton, and Kemp.

Holliday is a very good player. Not elite. There are elite players out there, and there's no point giving elite money to very good ballplayers. You can field 9 ballplayers at a time after all. You can find very good ballplayers that are perhaps comparable for much less. In the Cardinals case, they should save their elite money for Pujols.

And, honestly, IMO, to "easily" be worth $17 million, you better be a 6 win ballplayer above replacement player. Every year. Holliday's not that.

FWIW, Holliday's top 10 comparable batters, not including defense, through age 29

Wally Berger
Chick Hafey
Lance Berkman
Magglio Ordonez
Dave Parker
Hack Wilson
Fred Lynn
Mike Sweeney
Tim Salmon
Larry Walker
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post #130 of 570
12/11/09 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
You're confusing 'elite' with 'first ballot HoF'er'. Remember Albert Belle? He was elite. Remember Dave Stewart? He was elite. Remember Dale Murphy? He was elite. There can be stretches of being elite. Holliday's in one.

You cannot compare Matt Holliday to Albert Pujols in any way, shape, or form. Albert has no comps.

Dale Murphy was much better than Matt Holliday. 4 top 10 MVPs in a row, including 2 wins, 5 Silver Sluggers, and 5 Gold Gloves during his peak.

Albert Belle had 4 top 10 MVPs in a row and 4 Silver Sluggers. Another guy that was much better than Matt Holliday.

Dave Stewart finished in the top 5 in Cy Young 4 years in a row, although a lot of that was due to run support and pitching in a cavernous stadium.

Holliday has a worse case for being elite than all those guys. And they all fell off quickly after their peak. What are you trying to show here? Find me the so called "elite" that Holliday is better than.
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post #131 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
IMO, Ichiro is the only one you can make a case for as elite. And even he's likely to start falling off soon. Check back in 3 years in regards to Braun, Upton, and Kemp.

Holliday is a very good player. Not elite. There are elite players out there, and there's no point giving elite money to very good ballplayers. You can field 9 ballplayers at a time after all. You can find very good ballplayers that are perhaps comparable for much less. In the Cardinals case, they should save their elite money for Pujols.

And, honestly, IMO, to "easily" be worth $17 million, you better be a 6 win ballplayer above replacement player. Every year. Holliday's not that.

FWIW, Holliday's top 10 comparable batters, not including defense, through age 29

Wally Berger
Chick Hafey
Lance Berkman
Magglio Ordonez
Dave Parker
Hack Wilson
Fred Lynn
Mike Sweeney
Tim Salmon
Larry Walker
Matt Holliday WAR:

2007 - 7.9
2008 - 6.2
2009 - 5.7

His career average is 5.8.

He's easily worth $17 million and will get more.

By the way, Magglio made $19 million last year.
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post #132 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Holliday has a worse case for being elite than all those guys. And they all fell off quickly after their peak. What are you trying to show here? Find me the so called "elite" that Holliday is better than.
I'm trying to show that elite =/= HoF. That's it.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me who is better than Holliday besides Ichiro.
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post #133 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Matt Holliday WAR:

2007 - 7.9
2008 - 6.2
2009 - 5.7

His career average is 5.8.

He's easily worth $17 million and will get more.

By the way, Magglio made $19 million last year.
Magglio was overpaid.

5.8 is not 6, but I'll grant you it's close. OTOH, the trend is pointing down. And is pretty consistent with a peak around age 27. How many wins is he going to average above replacement from age 30 to 34? Is it inconceivable that his WAR for the next 5 years is going to look like 5.4, 5.0, 4.3, 3, 2? How much is that worth? How much injury risk are you going to factor in?
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post #134 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Holliday is a very good player. Not elite. There are elite players out there, and there's no point giving elite money to very good ballplayers.
This is utter nonsense. Elite players hit the open market once or twice a decade, and waiting with bated breath for the chance to sign one is a recipe for disaster for a large market ballclub.

I understand that, from a mid-market to small market team perspective, spending $17 million on Matt Holliday is a waste of resources. But when you’re the NY Mets, with a barren farm system that’s perennially left without a first round pick, it’s all about making your big purchases count, and Matt Holliday is as sure a bet over the long haul as any team can expect from an available free agent.
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post #135 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:48pm
As far as other comps, there hasn’t been an outfielder as good as Holliday is, at his age, durability, physical shape and makeup on the open market since Carlos Beltran back in 2004. Who, coincidentally, also signed for $17 million dollars per season, and contrary to everything I read here at the time, has been worth every fucking penny.

Now, I can see not valuing the total package, but to act like Matt Hollidays simply grow on trees is ridiculous.
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post #136 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Magglio was overpaid.
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if you think Magglio, or Carlos Lee, or Alfonso Soriano, or Juan Pierre, or anyone else is overpaid. What matters their salaries, the fact that Matt Holliday is better than all of them, and that he will get paid as much, if not more.

$20 million per is a fair price for the, at worst, 2nd best outfielder in the game.
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post #137 of 570
12/11/09 at 9:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
As far as other comps, there hasn’t been an outfielder as good as Holliday is, at his age, durability, physical shape and makeup on the open market since Carlos Beltran back in 2004. Who, coincidentally, also signed for $17 million dollars per season, and contrary to everything I read here at the time, has been worth every fucking penny.

Now, I can see not valuing the total package, but to act like Matt Hollidays simply grow on trees is ridiculous.
That's what I'm having the most trouble with, are the names brought up in 'comparison'. Seriously, Nelson Cruz? Nick Markakis? Sinn Shoo-Choo? Justin Upton? There's more, but I'm sick enough.

The only thing I can think is that folks are blinded by Holliday's time in Colorado.
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post #138 of 570
12/11/09 at 10:12pm
Hey, EvilTwin, how about an olive branch? Don’t we come out like fucking geniuses in this thread?
http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93477&page=3
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post #139 of 570
12/11/09 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
Hey, EvilTwin, how about an olive branch? Don’t we come out like fucking geniuses in this thread?
http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93477&page=3
That is awesome and embarrassing. We rock the house, ya'll.
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post #140 of 570
12/11/09 at 10:26pm
Memories, not as fun as those Barry Bonds threads, but fun times nonetheless.
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post #141 of 570
12/11/09 at 11:28pm
Let me just say, that while I don't think Holliday is among the true elites, especially since I value defense, when he does sign that 5 year, $70 to $80 million contract, my reaction will be a lot kinder than it was to the Gary Matthews Jr. contract.

We could have saved a lot of teams a lot of money if they had listened to us.
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post #142 of 570
12/13/09 at 2:07am
Oh please. Nobody is advocating overpaying for players such as Magglio Ordonez or Juan Pierre. Those are just bad deals. Matt Holiday had two great years in Colorado:

2006: 34 hr, 114 RBI
2007: 36 hr, 137 RBI

Now check out the immortal Vinny Castilla during his days as a Rockie:

1996: 40 hr, 116 RBI, .304 avg
1997: 40 hr, 113 RBI, .304 avg
1998: 46 hr, 144 RBI, .319 avg (!)

Vinny Castilla left the Rockes after the 1999 season. He spent the next 4 years as an average or below average slugger (in terms of power and avg) for Atlanta and Houston before rejoining the Rocks in 2004:

2004: 35 HR, 131 RBI (148 games)

now his 2005 season in Washington:

2005: 12 HR, 66 RBI (142 games)


Now check out the numbers for another Rocky immortal, Dante Bichette:

1995: 40 HRS, 128 RBI .340 avg (!)
1996: 31 HRS, 141 RBI .313 avg

Seeing a pattern here?

Holiday has had the benefit of playing in Colorado as well as batting in the same lineup as Albert Pujols. The one time he was out of either of those comfort zones (Oakland) he was simply above average. Again, I'm not saying he's a bad player, but if he is going to be paid 20M/year, he should be one of the 5 best in the game...and he is not. He's just the best of what's available. Buyer beware.
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post #143 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
Holiday has had the benefit of playing in Colorado as well as batting in the same lineup as Albert Pujols. The one time he was out of either of those comfort zones (Oakland) he was simply above average. Again, I'm not saying he's a bad player, but if he is going to be paid 20M/year, he should be one of the 5 best in the game...and he is not. He's just the best of what's available. Buyer beware.
Believe what you want, bob. The fact remains Matt Holliday is the best LF in baseball, and has a career OPS+ of 133. He's proven he can hit outside of Coors, and his home/road splits have shown that he's improved on his road hitting each year he's been in the majors. He also is a good defensive player to boot.

I don't know why you're equating having to be 'one of the 5 best in the game' with $20 million a year. Can you think of 5 players better than Mark Teixeira? Can you think of 5 guys better than Carlos Lee? Carlos Beltran?
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post #144 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:10pm
The best player in baseball, and one of the best players in the history of the game, Albert Pujols, made $14,427,326 last year. Which wasn't even in the top 25. What does that mean???? Albert sucks!!!!
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post #145 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:14pm
Just means he has a bad agent or gave a huge hometown discount. Bit of both I'd imagine.

Why is Bradley still a Cub?
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post #146 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post
Just means he has a bad agent or gave a huge hometown discount. Bit of both I'd imagine.
Don't be bringing your reason into this. It clearly means Albert isn't one of the top 5 players in baseball as salary = rank amongst peers.

One other thing...bob, what about Larry Walker? Explain how he thrived outside of Coors in both Montreal and St. Louis?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post
Why is Bradley still a Cub?
Good question. I guess teams are scared about his attitude and/or just can't find the right pieces to match up in a trade. I know there are a few teams out there where he'd be a good fit.
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post #147 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Good question. I guess teams are scared about his attitude and/or just can't find the right pieces to match up in a trade. I know there are a few teams out there where he'd be a good fit.
Be happy because I heard the surprise team was the Red Sox. Lowell for Bradley was the trade but the Sox went a different direction.
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post #148 of 570
12/13/09 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post
Be happy because I heard the surprise team was the Red Sox. Lowell for Bradley was the trade but the Sox went a different direction.
Well, I can't deny that I wouldn't mind his bat. The dude's got skills. And he needs a change of scenery more than anything. But I'm not sure Boston is the right town.
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post #149 of 570
12/13/09 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
Believe what you want, bob. The fact remains Matt Holliday is the best LF in baseball, and has a career OPS+ of 133. He's proven he can hit outside of Coors, and his home/road splits have shown that he's improved on his road hitting each year he's been in the majors. He also is a good defensive player to boot.

I don't know why you're equating having to be 'one of the 5 best in the game' with $20 million a year. Can you think of 5 players better than Mark Teixeira? Can you think of 5 guys better than Carlos Lee? Carlos Beltran?
Again, you are basing most of this on what he has done in Colorado. As I showed a couple posts ago, playing in Colorado can make average players look good. Had he come out and played like gangbusters in Oakland I would be more willing to agree with you...but he didn't. Far from it. If you are paying somebody 20/mil a year, I want to know that he can hit in the AL, the NL, big ballparks, small ballparks, without protection in the lineup, etc. and I don't know if he can.

And there are many players I would rather have than Matt Holliday.
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post #150 of 570
12/13/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulsonator View Post
The best player in baseball, and one of the best players in the history of the game, Albert Pujols, made $14,427,326 last year. Which wasn't even in the top 25. What does that mean???? Albert sucks!!!!
What's your point? That contracts get outdated? No shit. I'm sure this will be corrected before the beginning of this year.
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