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Conan The Barbarian - 1982

post #1 of 91
11/17/09 at 9:16am
Thread Starter 


Watched this for the first time in over a decade tonight and was impressed at how well it's aged. Yet another golden genre piece from the golden year that was 1982 they just don't make low down dirty, bloody, sexy fantasy like this anymore.

The main memory I took away from this from back in the day was that Arnie, while physically perfect for the role, was the films weakest link, being a silent Conan that said very little due to the actors limited abilities at this early point in his career thus limiting the films ability to capture Howards Barbarian in all his glory. In many ways, this was a deal breaker for me, the big thing the film got wrong.

Having watched the film again tonight, I've realised in many ways that impression blinded me tho to all the things the film got so right. Milius and Oliver Stones screenplay (I'd completely forgotten he co-wrote this) works within the limitations of their star, yet still captures the spirit and essence of Howards tone in so many ways. For a film with not a lot of special effects, and a lot of practical sets and locations, it's amazing how much Milius is able to transport you to Howards world. The sweeping vistas, the dirt and grime. It feels lived in and real.

That's the thing, Arnie still didn't 100% work for me this time (the perfect Conan is still yet to be cast imo), but so much around him did. The prologue of young Conan, the crazy witch he sleeps with with turns demonic when he's fucking her, the raid on the tower of snakes, James Earl Jones, Max Von Sydow and Mako who seem to get precisely the movie they're in and pitch accordingly. Basil Poledouris' score which evokes some of the most classic sword and sandal epics of Hollywoods golden era that lends proceedings a gravitas that balances out the blood, gore, pecs and boobs.

The film feels like it's taking the epic feel of sword and sandal epics from the 50's and 60's, marrying it with the lived in grittiness and boundary pushing violence and sexuality of the 70's and coming up with something that was uniquely 80's. A film like this with all it's uncompromising rough edges just couldn't be made today.

The whole thing feels like Howards world come to life, it just kills me that the actor at the centre of it all, while physically perfect, simply didn't quite have the chops to carry it all the way.

That said tho - great great film. Milius could direct the fuck out of this shit and really 'got' where Howard was coming from I feel.
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post #2 of 91
11/17/09 at 9:19am
Adjust your link, Hoss.

You know, while the movie is actually a lot shittier, it's Destroyer that really captures Howard's work.
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post #3 of 91
11/17/09 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca S. View Post
You know, while the movie is actually a lot shittier, it's Destroyer that really captures Howard's work.
This. Barbarian is a better sword and sorcery movie, but Destroyer is a better Conan movie.
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post #4 of 91
11/17/09 at 9:46am
What I noticed was how there's less emphasis on open displays of Magic in this one. Considering its a Sword & Sorcery movie.

There's Mako's Spirit Raising and James Earl Jones's Snake arrow. Did i miss anything else?
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post #5 of 91
11/17/09 at 9:53am
James Earl Jones turns into a giant snake.
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post #6 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:20am
A witch turns feral. Then she explodes after being thrown into the fireplace.
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post #7 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:23am
Valeria's ghost saves the day.
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post #8 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:33am
Conan punches a camel. It may not be magic, but it is magical.
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post #9 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:34am
An...Awe-Inspiringly Awesome...Sword and Sorcery classic by John Milius. While not an exact copy of...Robert E. Howards Conan, at least the tone was correct. Making the sequel...PG was extremely dumb. This is...Conan, not just any hack work.
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post #10 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:54am
Also, Basil Poledouris should have just stopped composing after this, because he was never going to top this score. Is there a more perfect match of character and theme than Conan and "Anvil of Crom"? Outside of Williams with Superman and Indy, I'd say no.
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post #11 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:55am
Nice love letter, RD. Think I'll bust the shrink wrap on my never-watched DVD.
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post #12 of 91
11/17/09 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Also, Basil Poledouris should have just stopped composing after this, because he was never going to top this score. Is there a more perfect match of character and theme than Conan and "Anvil of Crom"? Outside of Williams with Superman and Indy, I'd say no.
The score is 50% of the reason why this film works so well. Basil did great work on 'RoboCop' and 'the Hunt for Red October' (amongst many others), but his work here was really his zenith.

Love this movie, hate 'Destroyer'.
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post #13 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:04pm
If the basic plot of Destoyer had been given the attention to detail and heft that Barbarian had, it would have been amazing. Well, that and not casting Wilt Chamberlain in it.
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post #14 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:05pm
Love Barbarian. I wouldn't change anything.

Destroyer only works when you're 16 and want to fuck Olivia D'Abo.
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post #15 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:06pm
The best part of 'Destroyer' is Sarah Douglas.
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post #16 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:11pm
Mmm, no, gotta go with D'Abo.
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post #17 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:14pm
As long as you don't say Grace Jones, we're fine.
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post #18 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:16pm
I'd go with Tracey Walter before Grace Jones.
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post #19 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
The score is 50% of the reason why this film works so well. Basil did great work on 'RoboCop' and 'the Hunt for Red October' (amongst many others), but his work here was really his zenith.

Love this movie, hate 'Destroyer'.
I absolutely agree. Just a few notes from Theology/Civilization are enough to make me reach for the DVD. Although I have to admit to having a soft spot the size of the Indian subcontinent for his Starship Troopers score. If anything could turn me into a space fascist the Federation March would be it.

Anyway, if 50% of the movie is the soundtrack, Milius' character has to be the other 50%. He just completely buys into Howard's philosophy and world view.
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post #20 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:22pm
Gotta agree on the essential greatness of Conan. It's a legitimately well made movie, and unusually, it's mostly because it takes itself so seriously. There's a couple of minutes of levity (camel-punching, Arnold vs gay acolyte), but it's mostly straight-faced and grim. It makes the film a little less accessible than it might be, but way more memorable. When Thulsa Doom says 'Infidels. They will drown in lakes of blood,' there isn't a trace of camp.

The commentary, on the other hand, is one of the funniest of all time. Listen to it.
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post #21 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:22pm
This was the best shot of this costume I could find on line. Sarah will sign it for ya for 25 smackers....now that's an evil queen!
LL
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post #22 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:26pm
Thanks, Doc. LOVED that look on Sarah. Play/Pause/Rewind indeed.
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post #23 of 91
11/17/09 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
The commentary, on the other hand, is one of the funniest of all time. Listen to it.
I feel like I always spam the boards about this commentary. It's so hilarious.
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post #24 of 91
11/17/09 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
This. Barbarian is a better sword and sorcery movie, but Destroyer is a better Conan movie.
Holy cats. I sent this thread to my pal who's a die-hard Conan/Howard fan. Here's his two cents, added during what I must assume is a slow day at the office:

Quote:
I disagree wholeheartedly, as you probably guessed. I have always felt that “Barbarian” captured the tone and ethos of Howard’s work. Take, for example, the end of the Howard story “Beyond the Black River” (the one I’m always talking about):

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

Compare this with the discussion throughout “Barbarian” about “The Riddle of Steel.” In the beginning, Conan’s father, a blacksmith, is sitting with a young Conan and shows him his blade, saying, “No one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts. This you can trust.” He also mentions the myth of how man first discovered the working of steel, stealing it from the gods as it was left on the battlefield. He says, “… and we who found it are just men. Not gods, not giants… just men.”

Of course, everyone in his village is slaughtered by Thulsa Doom who, when confronting Conan later in the film, says that he used to “search for steel” also trying to master it and learn it’s secret. He notes Conan’s interest and tells him what he’s learned of the riddle of steel, saying, “Steel isn’t strong, boy. Flesh is stronger.” He then beckons a young follower to step off a platform to her death. He continues, “That is strength, boy! That is power! The strength and power of flesh. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength of your body, the desire in your heart. I gave you this. Such a waste. Contemplate this… on the Tree of Woe.” I love that last line.

Now flash forward to the final confrontation between Conan and Thulsa Doom on the temple balcony. Thulsa Doom says to him, “My child. You have come to me, my son. For who now is your father if it is not me. Who gave you the will to live? I am the wellspring from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What will your world be without me… my son?” Conan is moved by this and is clearly at an existential crossroads. Thulsa Doom is attempting to own his creation and his existence, taking from him all he truly has left. He thinks about all he’s been told throughout his life about the power of steel and flesh. Finally, he comes to the conclusion that I believe Howard would: The only thing a man has in life that is truly his is what he’s born with. Conan uses all that flesh and steel to bring a swift and bloody end to Thulsa Doom and we watch as his snake cult crumbles away, his followers dissolving back into the mass of humanity whence they came, probably searching for some other artificial human construct to attach meaning to their lives. But not Conan. By the end of the film, he has learned what his “fathers” have been trying to teach him.

And it’s the tenuous nature of all these artificial human constructs, such as politics, religion, etc. that Conan (and Howard, I presume) has no use for. Conan exists in a world sometime after the glory of Atlantis has faded and before the beginning of our recorded history. Mankind is barely differentiated from animals. Material wealth, for Conan, is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Politics give him hives, and religion doesn’t do much for him either. If the gods aren’t helping then they should stay out of the way, to paraphrase the film. Also, remember the “prayer” Conan makes to Crom just before his nearly one-man battle against Thulsa Doom’s soldiers? He says, “Battle pleases you, Crom, so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen… then to hell with you!”

Adding to the lesson on the emptiness of material things, during the scene with Max von Sydow as King Osric, he throws a king’s ransom in jewels at Conan and his companions, imploring them to bring his daughter, who has fallen under the spell of Thulsa Doom, back to him and he says to them, “There comes a time, thief, when jewels cease to sparkle, when gold loses its luster, when the throne room becomes a prison, and all that is left is a father’s love for his child.”

I never felt that “Destroyer” had any of this going on. “Barbarian” is as different from “Destroyer” and “Terminator” is from “Terminator 2”. Between the two films, Arnold became a superstar and the tone of his films changed. There was a greater attempt to cast him as a “family-friendly” hero. There was still blood in his films, but the ‘spirit” changed and there certainly wasn’t this pessimistic worldview. He also had MANY more lines of dialogue, befitting his superstar status. “Destroyer” more closely resembles that “Conan the Adventurer” television series. No, “Destroyer” should be considered anathema to true Conan and Howard fans.

Also, the score to “Barbarian” by Basil Poledouris is a masterwork.
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post #25 of 91
11/17/09 at 1:36pm
Wow. That's a great take on Conan, Phil. Thanks for sharing that.

I've never read any of the Conan novels, so I really cannot comment on them and how they are interpreted cinematically. My main issue with 'Destroyer' is that it all feels so glossy and artificial compared to the more gritty and realistic 'Barbarian'.
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post #26 of 91
11/17/09 at 1:44pm
I just think Destroyer has more of that pulp adventure feel -- or maybe tries for it more than Barbarian does. But that take Phil posted certainly makes that a pointless argument.
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post #27 of 91
11/17/09 at 1:57pm
I've read Howard's Conan stories multiple times. It's the same with the Conan The Barbarian. I think I've only watched The Destroyer once. Other than Conan ripping the god's horn off and the evil queen's outfits I remember little. I really don't like that movie.
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post #28 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:15pm
What's wrong with Grace fucking Jones? Beside her manly disposition?

And Destroyer was awesome. When I was masturbating to Samantha Fox.
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post #29 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:17pm
She's all right but it's not like I'd use her as an avatar or anythi --- Oh.
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post #30 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
The best part of 'Destroyer' is Sarah Douglas.
I agree with this. And not casting Wilt Chamberlain??? You fools!

THIS GIRL HAS TO REMAIN A VIRGIN I WILL LEAVE HER IN THE CARE OF ARNOLD AND WILT CHAMBERLAIN
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post #31 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:21pm
And the first thing they do is put her on a horse.
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post #32 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:21pm
Did someone say Grace Jones?

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post #33 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
Did someone say Grace Jones?
Nice. But WTF is that? It's better looking than that Dagoth dude.
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post #34 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:25pm
This thread has taken a rather bizarre turn...
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post #35 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:27pm
Play on one of her more famous poses. Pretty funny (and first thing I thought of).

http://getmeawayfromhere.files.wordp...e_jones_99.jpg
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post #36 of 91
11/17/09 at 3:43pm
This is a film that uses the medium in a superior fashion to most higher brow movies. It's pulp, but it is so skillfully made that the artifice disappears and you're left with a hell of a movie. A show I have a lot of appreciation for is Samurai Jack. It squeezed every ounce it could out of it's medium and budget. The creators constantly cited Blade Runner, Star Wars, and Conan the Barbarian as the three biggest influences. Watching Conan again about a year ago, it became blindingly obvious why. Conan establishes and maintains it's tone very effectively. And it absolutely does NOT rely on dialogue to move the story.

Of course a lot of that is the Basil Poledouris score, probably one of the greatest scores of all time. But a lot of it is also Milius. The opening of this film, all the way until Arnold appears, is one of the greatest openings ever.

In short, Conan the Barbarian doesn't get the credit it deserves, as a film. Not as a sword and sorcery film, not as low fantasy, but as a film, period.
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post #37 of 91
11/17/09 at 4:28pm
Absolutely fantastic movie. Still miffed that King Conan fell apart, although I'll cling to the idea that once Arnie gets out of office, he's going to need/want to do a big project. I'll settle for the script being published as a novel or comic.

As for Destroyer, have not seen it in years, though there is a really nice R2 version out there that I may pick up while in the UK.
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post #38 of 91
11/17/09 at 4:31pm
HBarr,
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post #39 of 91
11/17/09 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
HBarr,

Was there something supposed to follow that comma? Did your Droid fail? So sad. So sad.
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post #40 of 91
11/17/09 at 4:35pm
No, it was just a statement to rile up a tiny bit of guilt (if possible). Also my Droid killed itself over the picture of the fat dude.
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post #41 of 91
11/17/09 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Conan The Barbarian is a sort of psychopathic Star Wars

I get a kick out of that Time quote/critique. Milius had to be proud.
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post #42 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:25pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for quoting your mate there Phil, that's a really great dissertation, crystallisimg a lot of my feelings that I hadn't really put into words on the topic. Milius's original really feels like Howards world on a thematic level. As I keep coming back to, I just wish Arnie had had the chops to really capture Howards character as I adore him - he's a long way from silent in the novels - although to be fair, Milius totally makes that work.

As a massive Samurai Jack fan I can also see the influence all over it from this film as well.

I'd love to see Conan get rebooted as a film series (I still think Dwayne Johnson could be a great Conan in the true Howard mould personally), but I just don't see modern Hollywood letting the films be as gritty, sexy and downbeat as they'd need to be - and as far as directors quote who really is the modern heir to Milius? Is there one?
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post #43 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
I'd love to see Conan get rebooted as a film series (I still think Dwayne Johnson could be a great Conan in the true Howard mould personally)
If Howard were still alive, he'd disagree quite racistly.
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post #44 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:38pm
I never got the impression Howard was a racist, unlike Lovecraft or Burroughs.
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post #45 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca S. View Post
I never got the impression Howard was a racist, unlike Lovecraft or Burroughs.
Read more of his stuff, and some of Novalyne Price's personal recollections. His personal attitudes don't alter my appreciation of his skills as a writer (the same for Lovecraft or Edgar Rice Burroughs), but it's there.
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post #46 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca S. View Post
I never got the impression Howard was a racist, unlike Lovecraft or Burroughs.
Yeah, his depictions of the Moors and such were pretty racist from what I can recall.
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post #47 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah but wasn't everyone at least a little bit racist back then?
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post #48 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Yeah but wasn't everyone at least a little bit racist back then?
You're joking...right?
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post #49 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
Um... der.

Seriously tho, Tolkien would have utterly abhored Jacksons three Rings films, that doesn't mean they didn't capture the spirit of the books.
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post #50 of 91
11/17/09 at 8:59pm
Juuuuuust checkin'.

I don't know, Johnson would be great for Conan's bawdier side, in my limited exposure to him, I think he's got a ton of charisma like that, but I just can't picture him as the Cimmerian. I'm racist!
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