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Couple busted for refusing to pay "mandatory gratuity" - Page 2

post #51 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Look, I know it seems baffling to a lot of people, especially in countries where the waitstaff gets paid an actual salary, but this is how the system works around here. And, aside from bad tippers, it actually does work. I know some bartenders around here who make six figures a year working 3 days a week, working at bars making 2.34 an hour. And if you don't feel like tipping, then don't, but don't expect great service. The people who can't understand your fucking order at McDonalds, and then fuck it up anyway while giving you a bad attitude? They don't work for tips. The server who brings you a refill before you finish your drink, reccomends the best things on the menu, and doesn't make you wait for your check? They work for tips in an environment where you expect to be waited on by someone who is attentive. If you don't want to pay for someone to be attentive to your dining needs, stay the fuck home. If it was all about having someone cook dinner for you and you didn't care about the services a waitstaff provided, why didn't you just order carryout?

Hint: if the system relies on the consumers feeling obligated to pay extra, it doesn't work. The only making out in your system is the guy who owns the restaurant.

We're kind of arguing the same thing here. Tipping is great - WHEN THE STAFF HAVE EARNED IT. Us foreign types are decrying a system that frowns on those who don't automatically tip.

And sorry, but paying restaurant-level prices for food should entitle you to expect a decent level of service, tip or no tip. It's great that you're okay with restaurant bosses screwing low-paid staff, though.
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post #52 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:06pm
Not all restaurant owners are as villainous as you seem to want to paint them.
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post #53 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:08pm
The Restaurant price is for them cooking your food for you, not for everything else. You don't pay less for it if you get carry-out. Also, the reason it's irritating to servers and former servers when it comes to non-Americans not tipping is that it's so common. And most don't know that waitstaff works for tips here. So, they only tip if you break a leg for them. Again, you don't have to feel obliged to do it, otherwise an auto-grat would be on every check regardless of your party size, but if you don't tip, I wouldn't reccomend going back to that restaurant again.
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post #54 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
So the alleged greatest capitalist system in the world is propped up by charity. Huh.
No, I believe it is a massive sense of entitlement, corporate welfare, and Wall street bailouts which prop up the greatest capitalist system in the world.
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post #55 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Not all restaurant owners are as villainous as you seem to want to paint them.
Explain to me again why they can't pay their own staff a decent wage? Because it seems to work fine in every other Western country in the world without meal prices spiralling into hundreds of dollars.

This baffles me.
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post #56 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Also, the reason it's irritating to servers and former servers when it comes to non-Americans not tipping is that it's so common. And most don't know that waitstaff works for tips here.
Oh, I've known plenty of waitstaff who've worked here in Orlando, and believe me, a lot of foreign diners know about tipping in America, they just play the "I'm not from here" card to get away with not doing it.

Quote:
Again, you don't have to feel obliged to do it, otherwise an auto-grat would be on every check regardless of your party size, but if you don't tip, I wouldn't reccomend going back to that restaurant again.
Conversely, you'll be pleasantly surprised if you return to a place where you've tipped well. One place I frequented got to the point where a pitcher of my favorite beer was waiting for me at the bar before I'd even sat down, and usually an item or two I'd ordered would somehow not end up on my final bill.
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post #57 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:20pm
It's actually a pretty sweet deal for everyone involved. The managers who are in charge of the money get a lot of slack on labor costs which helps offset ever sky-rocketing food costs. Servers have a steady stream of cash every single day and never have to "wait for payday," plus they tend to make a lot more money working for tips than they would working for salary.

It's not a case of The Mean Oppressive Restaurant forcing the Waitstaff to Beg for Charity. That's retarded.
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post #58 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Oh, I've known plenty of waitstaff who've worked here in Orlando, and believe me, a lot of foreign diners know about tipping in America, they just play the "I'm not from here" card to get away with not doing it.
Those cads! How dare they not compensate you for the fact that the company you work for doesn't see fit to pay you properly!

For the record, every time I've visited America I have tipped at every eating establishment I have visited. Why? Because the service was GOOD. Not because "in America, you HAVE to tip!".
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post #59 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
It's actually a pretty sweet deal for everyone involved. The managers who are in charge of the money get a lot of slack on labor costs which helps offset ever sky-rocketing food costs. Servers have a steady stream of cash every single day and never have to "wait for payday," plus they tend to make a lot more money working for tips than they would working for salary.
No, you're just made to feel guilty if you pay your bill and leave without forking out an extra fifteen-twenty bucks.
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post #60 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:22pm
There are some restaurants that treat their servers like dirt, but there's just as many if not more who treat them like the valuable resource they are. No matter how good the food is, I'm more likely to go back to a place with great help than a place without it.
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post #61 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
For the record, every time I've visited America I have tipped at every eating establishment I have visited. Why? Because the service was GOOD. Not because "in America, you HAVE to tip!".
Nobody said you HAVE to tip, Jesus what the fuck are we even arguing about? You don't have to, you're perfectly welcome to leave that little line blank, but you're a prick if you do.
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post #62 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
No, you're just made to feel guilty if you pay your bill and leave without forking out an extra fifteen-twenty bucks.
Jesus, if that's what you're tipping, no wonder you're so pissed about it.
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post #63 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
No, you're just made to feel guilty if you pay your bill and leave without forking out an extra fifteen-twenty bucks.
Twenty bucks? I don't know if you're being hyperbolic to try and prove a point or if you just REALLY overdo it.
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post #64 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:28pm
There's not a gun to your head forcing you to tip, it's an option. Also, people who wait tables KNOW how it works, it's not like the 2.34 an hour is sprung on them by a mustache twisting restaurant owner. Here's the logic: If your server takes 20 minutes to come to your table when you sit down, they give you a shitty attitude, they fuck up your order, and they never refill your drinks, then by all means, don't tip them. However, getting pissed off that the system exists to encourage your server to provide you with better service so that they'll make more money is pretty stupid.

By the way, tipping twenty bucks is only really expected if your check was 100 bucks.
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post #65 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Nobody said you HAVE to tip, Jesus what the fuck are we even arguing about? You don't have to, you're perfectly welcome to leave that little line blank, but you're a prick if you do.
Exactly. You, the paying customer, are a prick. Not the guy/girl who hired you on a substandard wage, but the person who just came in for a sandwich and a coffee. Because, you know, they're eating there - they MUST have money to burn, right? These dining types must have no use for an extra five bucks in their pockets.

PS The "fifteen-twenty bucks" figure was collectively, for two or three diners.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure how many restaurants/eating joints work such a system over there, but in the UK all tips often go into a "communal jar" and are divided equally at the end of the night. So poor performance doesn't necessarily kill off your tipping income.
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post #66 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:34pm
Very few do that. Most servers "tip out" the bartender, host/hostess, and bus boy a small percentage, and keep the rest. And, again, if you want a sandwich and coffee and don't want to tip what would amount to be about 2.50 for your server taking care of you, go to Panera Bread, where they hand it to you at the counter.
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post #67 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:39pm
Seemill is right - if you don't want to pay that little bit extra then don't go eat a place where you expect someone to tend to every single one of your dining needs. You do have choices in the situation. That's the trade-off - I can go to THIS place, where all I gotta do is sit my ass down and don't have to worry about ANYTHING and spend a few extra bucks on a tip, or I can go to Burger King, give my order and take care of everything else myself and not have to worry about dropping the extra cash. If you can't afford the tip then don't go to the restaurant, or do go and order it carry out.
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post #68 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:40pm
Jesus, this thread has stupid coming out of its pores.
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post #69 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Seemill is right - if you don't want to pay that little bit extra then don't go eat a place where you expect someone to tend to every single one of your dining needs. You do have choices in the situation. That's the trade-off - I can go to THIS place, where all I gotta do is sit my ass down and don't have to worry about ANYTHING and spend a few extra bucks on a tip, or I can go to Burger King, give my order and take care of everything else myself and not have to worry about dropping the extra cash. If you can't afford the tip then don't go to the restaurant, or do go and order it carry out.
So what exactly are waiting staff paid for in America, if they're not already being paid to serve food to diners?

See, if a waiter/waitress tended to every single one of my dining needs, I would have NO problem tipping. That's my point! To be expected to tip, regardless of the service quality, is baffling.
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post #70 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Conversely, you'll be pleasantly surprised if you return to a place where you've tipped well. One place I frequented got to the point where a pitcher of my favorite beer was waiting for me at the bar before I'd even sat down, and usually an item or two I'd ordered would somehow not end up on my final bill.
Absolutely correct. My experience has shown that, at least in the long term, being a good tipper always pays off. I can't tell you how many free drinks, desserts, and 'here, try this out' samples I've received over the years.
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post #71 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Seemill is right - if you don't want to pay that little bit extra then don't go eat a place where you expect someone to tend to every single one of your dining needs. You do have choices in the situation. That's the trade-off - I can go to THIS place, where all I gotta do is sit my ass down and don't have to worry about ANYTHING and spend a few extra bucks on a tip, or I can go to Burger King, give my order and take care of everything else myself and not have to worry about dropping the extra cash. If you can't afford the tip then don't go to the restaurant, or do go and order it carry out.
I think what people may be decrying is the most definite downgrading of service in American restaurants. There are a plethora of servers out there who expect a healthy tip for little work. Why? Because of the culture created in which people are EXPECTED to tip. Not that servers are actually EARNING the tip. I can count a one hand, the number of good servers I've had in the past year. One hand.
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post #72 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
Absolutely correct. My experience has shown that, at least in the long term, being a good tipper always pays off. I can't tell you how many free drinks, desserts, and 'here, try this out' samples I've received over the years.
Once upon a time perhaps. Recently? Wait staff has gotten rather bad lately. There are a number of once favorite restaurants that I do not frequent anymore.
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post #73 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:48pm
Yeah fellas, reading is fundamental. If your server sucks then fuck em. They know the deal and they know how to earn their living. If they can't do that then they need to find a different job. And again - where are you people eating? Maybe it's the whole "Small Town America" mentality, but I've NEVER had just outright bad servers. I've had NEW servers, and I tend to take a little pity on them because it's hard to get into a flow, but otherwise I got no complaints at all.
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post #74 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
However, getting pissed off that the system exists to encourage your server to provide you with better service so that they'll make more money is pretty stupid.
This system exists over here, too. Servers go that extra mile to get tips, rather than expecting them for simply doing their jobs.
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post #75 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
Absolutely correct. My experience has shown that, at least in the long term, being a good tipper always pays off. I can't tell you how many free drinks, desserts, and 'here, try this out' samples I've received over the years.
Man, in my own barhopping days (which coincided mostly with my bartending days), other bartenders loved me, and I tipped them well. Crowded bar? I was still the first one to get a drink. Why? Bartender remembers me, and remembers that I appreciate his service. Slow bar? A shot will usually accompany a drink, again, because the bartender knows I hook him up. When I was a bartender, if I saw a guy who stiffed me before in the crowd, I would usually get around to him last, because he obviously isn't interested, and I'd rather spend my time on people who spend money. Hate how that works? Beer is a lot cheaper at the grocery store, and you can have it whenever you want.
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post #76 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Yeah fellas, reading is fundamental. If your server sucks then fuck em.
Agreed. I think I got a bit het up over your "prick" comment is all. My apologies. Who's for a pint?

PS You guys can leave the tip
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post #77 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by merriweather View Post
this system exists over here, too. Servers go that extra mile to get tips, rather than expecting them for simply doing their jobs.
jesus bleeding christ, if they suck dont fucking tip.
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post #78 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
Once upon a time perhaps. Recently? Wait staff has gotten rather bad lately. There are a number of once favorite restaurants that I do not frequent anymore.
My wife and I regularly frequent several restaurants where EVERYONE knows us. We liked the restaurants and made an effort of cultivating a relationship with them. Good tipping (25-30%) to begin with has assured us consistently fantastic experiences. The managers, the bartenders, and the wait staff all know us, so we get free stuff all the time. Indeed, the free stuff that we get usually balances out the nice tip that we leave.
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post #79 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Yeah fellas, reading is fundamental. If your server sucks then fuck em. They know the deal and they know how to earn their living. If they can't do that then they need to find a different job. And again - where are you people eating? Maybe it's the whole "Small Town America" mentality, but I've NEVER had just outright bad servers. I've had NEW servers, and I tend to take a little pity on them because it's hard to get into a flow, but otherwise I got no complaints at all.
For the record I rarely got bad service when I lived in Houston. I want to say it's a Florida thing. Standards here are definitely lower than in Texas. And yes, I know the difference from bad service and someone who is new. Lot of bad servers in Florida (sorry Richard, it's true).
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post #80 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
jesus bleeding christ, if they suck dont fucking tip.
Okay, one more time:

Quote:
You don't have to, you're perfectly welcome to leave that little line blank, but you're a prick if you do.
This notion - that you're an ass for not tipping, regardless of circumstance - is what I object to. Obviously from Jeremy's follow-up posts he doesn't actually have that attitude.
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post #81 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
What the fuck are you talking about?
Canadians to a letter are shitty tippers. Like 5 to 8 percent shitty. I'm sorry. I don't know how to type it out slow for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Maybe you got bad tips because you're an American, and Americans are LAZY FAT FUCKS AND HORRIBLE INDIVIDUALS.
Everyone knows that.
I have never worked a tipping job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Seriously, are you doing an hyperbole competition with Seabass? Because if not, it's no wonder you worked in kitchens 15 years.
I worked in kitchens because it is what I chose to do. Not because I had no other options. And I was an outstanding chef, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
If you get bad service, or no apologies or acknowledgement for late food (late food may and probably depends on the kitchen, and not on the waiter. Usually.), no or shitty tipping should be expected. And it got both ways. Great service should be rewarded accordingly.
Agreed but Canadains by and large tip 5-8% no matter the quality of the service. I'm sorry you have to hear this.

ETA: This doesn't mean I have anything really against Canadians. I have many relatives in Canada and you are lovely people in a fantastic country in which I would gladly live if I could. It is just you have an astounding amount of bad tippers.

Also I don't understand this talk of waiting an hour and a half to have your order taken. For fucks sake, people. Leave and find somewhere else.
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post #82 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:58pm
Thread Starter 
I have never not tipped someone. If service is bad, I tip maybe 10%. If exceptional, 25% or more. Otherwise 20% is standard. Additionally, if service is truly bad, I ask for the manager and explain the situation. Usually food will be comped (thus negating the money spent on tip) or if management is truly unhelpful then I vow to never return to that restaurant again.

Tipping generally is optional and you should leave what you want. But in the case of the story I linked, the tip was part of the bill and thus they did not pay the full amount. The patrons were in the wrong. They should have sucked it up, paid the bill, and vowed never to return. They had a party of 6; it would have come out to less than $3 a person.

Edit: Also, they complained that they waited an hour for their food. In an extremely busy restaurant, it's not unheard of to wait 30-40 minutes for a large party to receive their meals. An hour is a little long, but if you have appetizers and drinks, you turn it into a fun social evening.
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post #83 of 185
11/20/09 at 1:59pm
The point is, you're expected to tip for GOOD service. There are people in the thread who don't like being expected to tip at all, because the restaurant owner should take care of it instead. Those people are pricks in this scenario. The people who don't tip for bad service aren't.
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post #84 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:00pm
Agreed.

But man, your waiting staff wages over there SUCK.

Diva, I've never found wait times, unless grossly excessive, an issue when it comes to service. Surely if you're out for a meal, socialising is part of it? You're not there to wolf your food down as quickly as possible.
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post #85 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
The point is, you're expected to tip for GOOD service. There are people in the thread who don't like being expected to tip at all, because the restaurant owner should take care of it instead. Those people are pricks in this scenario. The people who don't tip for bad service aren't.
I don't think there is anyone in this thread who wouldn't tip for good service. There are definitely people in this thread who bristle at being expected to tip on any type of service (including downright bad).
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post #86 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:09pm
So, a two page, cyclical argument in which we all ended up agreeing on the exact same thing. I <3 the internet.
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post #87 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
So, a two page, cyclical argument in which we all ended up agreeing on the exact same thing. I <3 the internet.
QUESTION: Is that better or worse than the Domingo Hatefuck thread?
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post #88 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
QUESTION: Is that better or worse than the Domingo Hatefuck thread?
Needs more taste(full/less) pictures.
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post #89 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
QUESTION: Is that better or worse than the Domingo Hatefuck thread?
HAHAHAHA. Better, I suppose. That shit's still going on.

THOUGH - I will say that I find that thread interesting. Usually when a well-known poster gets banned, regardless of who it is, the "Where did he go?" thread USUALLY drifts into "Well, he wasn't THAT bad territory." That Domingo thread got vicious and stayed that way. Not saying it was undeserved, but it's an observation.
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post #90 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:18pm
I don't know, there's a couple of guys in there who've piped up in defence of Domingo's right to be a nasty little axewound. Mostly though I think he was just that disliked, and the total callousness of his final post swept away any remorse that folks might've felt.
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post #91 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:19pm
Wait staff don't get paid minimum wage (let alone a living wage) so you are expected to tip for average service even (and not simply above average or exemplary service). And there are plenty of asshole customers who don't tip even when provided excellent service. Also, it's often given that in large groups it's difficult for the group to wrangle up the appropriate amount of cash let alone a decent tip. It seems like it would be better to not have special wage laws for waiters.

Also, if you look at why people tip poorly it's can also be for things outside of the waiter's control. The bar is taking too long to make a drink, the kitchen staff is taking to long to prepare the food, the restaurant owner generally has a crappy restaurant (run down interior, cheap food/ingredients, etc.). Still, the waiter is the one who is judged and punished on the overall experience.

It's just seems like a crappy and inefficient way to decide on a person's pay.
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post #92 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
Also, if you look at why people tip poorly it's can also be for things outside of the waiter's control. The bar is taking too long to make a drink, the kitchen staff is taking to long to prepare the food, the restaurant owner generally has a crappy restaurant (run down interior, cheap food/ingredients, etc.). Still, the waiter is the one who is judged and punished on the overall experience.
See, in that situation, the waiter needs to realize the shitty place they work in, and move on. I worked in a place that was filthy, poorly run, and had slow and crappy food. When I noticed how it was adversely affecting my income, I quit after a week and went back to the other place I had left.
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post #93 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:35pm
I can only comment on my own personal experiences but I tip on waiters performance (not the restaurant). Side note but my biggest pet peeve for servers? Not taking care of your guests drinks. If it's really busy and hectic and you're taking care of my drink(s)? 100% guaranteed to get a fantastic tip.
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post #94 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Man Mundt View Post
Agreed but Canadains by and large tip 5-8% no matter the quality of the service. I'm sorry you have to hear this.
First off, you don't seem to know what hyperbole means.

You seem to be judging an entire country based on your (limited) experience.

But anyway, you're a moron. I'm sorry you have to hear this.
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post #95 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:42pm
So thinking that people should be paid fairly for their work and not rely on tips to make rent is being a prick? I gladly accept.
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post #96 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:49pm
No, taking this out on the server by not tipping even if they gave you good service would make you a prick.
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post #97 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:50pm
It's definitely a different ethos between the US and the UK. In the UK you tip when someone has been fucking exemplary at their job, like truly fucking great, and a tip isn't expect. Actually I should modify that because more a more restaurants seem to sneaking in a service charge. As such a tip in the UK is a reward which is additional to the standard wage. Whereas in the US a tip is essentially a given and the amount of a tip is the factor which changes depending on service. Am I getting that right?
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post #98 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:55pm
Pretty close, except that if someone gives you truly horrible service, you shouldn't feel obliged to tip anyway. If you do, you're just an extra nice person. Here's really how it should be:
Poor Service: 0-15%
Average to good service: 18-20%
Great Service: Go Nuts, make someones day if you can.
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post #99 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:57pm
I still can't get over the fact waiters get $2 an hour over there. I mean most waiters over here get at minimum $12 an hour and I know a few people who are on like $15 or so.
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post #100 of 185
11/20/09 at 2:57pm
If I get really good service, I offer to have sex with the server. It's a pretty big sacrifice, I know, but they've earned every inch.
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