The Muslims are coming!

"Muslim backlash" - really, I think most people around the world would be just fine with Muslims boycotting their country.

Phew, thanks Europe. I thought we'd be the only ones. Aah, I feel better...kind of.

Well, we've seen this before. Europe to this day still undergoes waves of Antisemiticism (ironic that in this regard the Muslims have something in common with the Jews).

With both groups there is a complex of religious, cultural, political and (yes) racial "Otherness" and an unwillingness by a significant minority to assimilate. This in a culture that requires assimilation.

Also, Europe has endured century after century of religious turmoil going back to the Middle Ages. The appearance of a new religion (new to Europe) that insists on a strict religious adherence to many things modern Europeans find abhorrent (forced marriages, in fact the general attitude towards women) also has a part.

Errr, Switzerland is only geographically located in europe It isnt part of the european union even, and its generally one of the most, if not THE most, isolationist and conservative countries on the entire continent.
Anti-Islam tendencies in europe range from what switzerland is showing here to almost toal acceptance, even "why talk about it? Its normal" in some areas in germany at least, and AFAIK further up north.

One big problem in the recent years have been violent crimes committed by islamist immigrants against each other. Husbands killing their wives and daughters over matters of "honour" and religion, vendettas, stuff like that. Also, there is a pretty big shitstorm brewing between the first wave of immigrants especially from turkey, who have been living in europe for decades now, and the freshly immigrating (is that a word?) people who now find themselves facing a part of their people which havent taken part in the last decades of cultural evolution of their home countries, and often are more extreme, conservative and simply old-fashioned than the people in the nation they once left today.

Austria and Switzerland, sadly, are probably the posterchilds for european countries reacting really badly to immigration, and in both politicians have started adopting a populist, republican-like rhethoric in the last few years, when it comes to this topic. I sincerely hope that this isnt a tendency, but rather an exception.

On a sidenote: Antisemitism? What? Aside from a rather "famous" span 60 years ago, I am not aware of much antisemitism on a mention-worthy scale in europe, with the possible exception of the french southern coast. Actually, at least in germany, austria, denmark, sweden and norway, there doesnt even seem to be any kind of awareness about "jews" as a subgroup... they are just normal people, thats it. No particular mention or care is given, no particular treatment or mistreatment... the topic simply doesnt exist in everyday life beyond the normal boundaries.

Of course, I am hardly knowledgable about entire europe, as its still a mix of vastly different cultures, and esp. towards the eastern areas there is a barely-hidden vein of racism running through the population. But antisemitism is news to me

EDIT: Ok, after talking to the jewish part of my girlfriends family, I think I know what you mean. I probably grew up in the wrong area to really have taken notice, but yes, there is a leftover of right-wing extremists who indeed sport such ideas and behaviour. Its really a fringe though, and hasnt played a role in a long time now.

Heh ... I remember in Spain people seemed pretty prejudiced against "gypsies" which was pretty alien to me, since I really couldn't tell gypsies apart from "regular" Spaniards.

When it comes to race matters, I find a lot of Europeans struggle with accepting the notion that they are not as tolerant as they would like to imagine themselves.

Europes birth rate has been on the decline for decades while the Muslium population has exploded!(Ha ha) So in a way I understand their fear.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between a nationality, a race/ethnicity, and a religion? Really really seriously?

Of course there's going to be more of a sense of xenophobia in Europe due to the fact that Europe has to deal with direct contact with different nationalities, has different borders to dispute and has mass migration throughout it. America, and to a lesser extent, the UK are Islands metaphorically and literally in that regard.

Although, Cleo, I think it's a little unwise to suggest there isn't increasing tension between 'older' Europeans and Islamic immigrants. There's a great deal of intolerance going on, on both sides, and the shift to right politics in the Europe and growth of the BNP are symptoms of that tension.

Well at least the Europeans have the excuse that they have a real experience about what it's like to be conquered by Muslim forces. Hundreds of years ago Muslims conquered Austria and even got as far as Spain.
Imagine the US having such a background and not going completely nuts.

Well the Islamic incursions into Europe, and the flight of the Greeks from Constantinople, kind of helped to kick off the Renaissance, so I can't bear too much ill will towards the Moors.

There's plenty of tension. And some of it is racism, no doubt. I just don't like seeing those of us who have serious doubts about Islam as a religion lumped in with racists and morons who are 'scared of brown people'.

Wow.

I do find it cute how all the yanks are all like 'See, you're racist too, you're racist too. Now it doesn't matter that we're racist, because you're racist too"

You mean "yanks" on this message board, those around you or in your imagination?

I often find the sheer obnoxiousness of people making 'ironic' use of the term "brown people" ends up overshadowing whatever point they were trying to make by doing it.

Actually, and that goes for every country in this world, a certain amount of problems and opinion is actually not a bad thing, not intolerant and not racism, at least not more than having a problem with your neighbours really loud music at 4 AM in the morning:

Some people just dont like some things, and now and then the person who does these things happens to be of foreign origin. Not every argument between people of different nations, races or religions is more than just, well, an argument. In a world of political correctness, its easy to lose sight of that sometimes.

Islam, as a religion as well as a culture, holds several views and traditions that are at odds with western culture and living. Thats nothing new, and friction is bound to happen. For example, I currently live in Vienna, Austria, in a part of the city which is probably THE multi-cultural melting pot of the city. A dozen nationalities, mine (german, which isnt treated much different than other foreigners by many austrians), turks, virtually the entire eastern bloc, multiple asian countries and quite a few italians.
However, due to a relatively large number of muslims, even though most of them are very lenient in their beliefs, a few years ago it was decided that the grocery market in front of my house wasnt going to sell pork meat anymore. Almost all the butchers there were muslims anyway, so it only really changed for two or three stalls, but nonetheless, it is now pretty hard to get decent pork meat, which changed the way I shop and cook.
Now, I dont mind, but I can see that people might be annoyed, maybe they dont like beef and lamb (as my mom), and see this as a negative impact of too many muslims. And I can see their point, to a degree.

For what its worth, its harder to compare europe and the USA than many people believe when it comes to political ideas. The Liberal/Conservative way of splitting things up doesnt work here, and frankly many values held by one side or the other in the USA are championed by none here, or all of them. Its really a mixed bag, and a conservative party in europe might very well come up with a new immigrant rights idea, or be more lenient towards illegal aliens, than many a liberal party, while a left-wing party could just as well try and go for the "kick them out" vote. Its just not as codified and ritualized as in the USA.
Which doesnt make us more or less tolerant. It just makes us not americans

I mean "yanks" (see I can use quotation marks as well, you condescending prick) as defined by you. Because to be honest you seem like the lowest possible common denominator.

I don't see anybody here saying that there is no racism in the US or that it is justified by Europeans being racists as well, you don't have to be so defensive. We have comments all year long about racism in the US, and whenever one about Europe comes up, I often notice this reaction.

It just seems weird to comment on xenophobia and racism in Europe, because it's such an intrinsic problem within our society, that I always assume it's done out of ignorance or hubris. As nations we've subjugated, slaughtered, oppressed, and warred with each other for over one and a half thousand years, so of course there are going to be issues in the national psyches of countries, especially when dealing with passionate and potentially all consuming forces such as extremist Islam.

Heh I've also heard it said that France, Britain and Germany are not "really' part of Europe, in each case by a European!

As for current Anti-Semitism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Europe

The article actually includes a lot of info on Muslim on Jewish violence, which adds another twist to the tale!

Interesting, but cross-checking with a german source, I am somewhat doubtful. You see, when you grow up in germany, you are basically indoctrinated that we did these atrocious things to the jews, and that whatever you think of them, you should not ever act, speak or even think badly about them, because of what our country did to them. I grew up in southwest germany, which is as lefty and green as it gets, so I suppose esp. former eastern germany is different, and many of the big cities, but nonetheless, there is a VERY strong awareness about the jewish situation.
However, in recent years, and in your wikipedia link this actually is mentioned, there has been a strong increase in Anti-Israel rhethoric due to their behaviour, politically and strategically, with the palestinians.
This has on many occasions devolved into a series of accusations of antisemitism, and it really kind of muddies the waters there.

As you may now, there is this "Zentralrat der Juden", translated roughly "central jewish council" in germany, which has had a lot of pull through the historical "guilt" angle, and at times, a case of "damn israel military is bombing their neighbours" devolves into a calculated political pissing match, where its really about influence on both sides, not really about the case at hand.
Not saying there isnt a strong antisemitic sentiment among the right-wing fringe of neo-nazi movements, and that happens to be the fringe very likely to act in actual violence, but you really cannot compare a skinhead lunatic stabbing an old, well-liked rabbi with a centrist politician daring to speak out against israels policy, and subsequently being hammered in public for being antisemitic.

In case I sound like an apologist, I really am not. I dont consider any kind of racism valid, fair or even acceptable. But germany, antisemitism, jews, israel and the whole political hay surrounding these issues are very complicated, and very much distorted in the foreign media. Its a bit like us europeans, were we to just listen to our own media, we couldnt have imagined how anyone but the 10% rightwing loonies could ever have voted for Bush.
Its quite different on the outside, in wikipedia and sound-byte sized newsclips, than it is on the inside, where you accumulate various perspectives over the years.

Back to topic, my girlfriend has studied arabistics (well, in case thats the wrong word again, basically arabic culture, islam, language, history etc.) with a Masters Degree, so I asked her a few things over the years.
One opinion that stood out, and I found interesting, was that she, a borderline-communist lefty, liberal, immigration-lover (after all, shes my girlfriend and I am a foreigner here) and fan of arabian everything, says that in her opinion, the stream of muslims immigrating into western countries is a major problem, and a major mistake on a global scale at this time.

She has very little faith that our culture, and that of true muslims (meaning those with actual religious zeal and conviction) will stop to chafe and clash at every corner of daily life, and in her experience its not just us seeing now and then that things just dont mix well, or that we feel annoyed, she claimed that a lot of muslims are offended daily by many things that happen in their neighbourhoods, and are constantly feeling disrespected and slandered by the western culture they immigrated to.

I cant imagine how that must be, living in a city, a country where you feel annoyed, offended all the time, and how a higher standard of living is worth that, but I guess thats the first world european speaking, who never has experienced hunger, poverty or abuse to any dangerous degree.

Well I grew up in South Carolina which has a deep history of racism. And as I grew up I was inundated with books, films and lectures in school about racism, including lots of actual footage of the Death Camps in Germany being opened up. But that didn't prevent most of my white fellow students from being pretty damn racist and proud of being so. True they didn't run around in white hoods (most of them anyway), but the culture is there..as evidenced by recent events like Joe "YOU LIE!" Wilson screaming at the (first Black) President of the United States in a full session of Congress

First of all if you are going to make sweeping judgments about a whole continent based on isolated occurrences, get the nationalities straight. It's Swiss.

And the admittedly real friction that is present in Europe is most definitely not racial but cultural. I'm pretty sure that most Europeans would feel likewise bothered if, for example, millions of Southern Evangelicals started immigrating here, setting up their stupid mega-churches and preaching in the streets.

But what I understood is that the Swiss government was generally opposed to the idea of banning the minarets as it would spread discord. With that said, I believe a country has a right to dictate the aesthetics of its city. If a secular image is what they're going for, then I wouldn't be quick to label them xenophobic.

The xenophopic aspect is that they're targeting the Islamic symbols specifically. I believe at the core of all this, is that the majority of Muslilms are most likely progressive, fully integrated European citizens, but they are simply not putting the necessary effort to distinguish themselves from the vocal, Islamist minority.

I believe it's the same problem Christians face in the United States. Most Christians I know have found an equilibrium and reconciled their faiths with their surroundings; I've yet to formally socialize with the sort of whackjobs I see on Fox news. However, if the progressive majority don't get vocal and distinctive, then I can see a wave of Christian backlash emerging in the States.

The muslims aren't coming, they're already here! And they're spreading like maggots!!

There's some serious shit on youtube, I tell you what.

I think that's a human thing.

I think the solution here is obvious: Christians, Jews, Buddhists; Commence to Fuckin!

And us Atheists are, what, left with ... porn?

Ok.

So no, you didn't. You made a horribly simplistic generalisation that shows your complete lack of knowledge about the specific problems with immigration in Europe at the moment. And I'm not even blaming you for that, it's just unwise to try and get a discussion going then.

Also, like Stelios said- if you can't distinguish the Swiss from the Swedish, don't bother. The numbers you came up with are completely wrong, too.

Are you fucking kidding? Europeans are so racist it isn't even funny. The number of racist people on this board is incredible. People actually defending the swiss vote here, simply disgusting.

Europe is choke full of racist right wing organisations. Even the neutral swiss are massively racist as shown by this vote.

If it weren't for the delayed action by the US, Europe would've been perfectly content with letting the Serbs ethnically cleanse the ethnic albanians. There are too many other examples to even bother.

This dipshit has to be worst of them though.

Oh Bull fucking shit. No one is petrol bombing the white immigrants houses, its only the brown immigrants Europeans have a problem with. If you are racist don't hide behind some bullshit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1568370.stm

My bad. Didn't realize this was a parody thread.

The article you're linking is dated 2001. You've got to be joking.

There isn't a problem with white immigrants? In what part of Europe do you live?

Okay, there is a total of 4 minarets in all of Switzerland! And the last one was built 50 years ago!!!! 50 fucking years ago. So any arguments about the aesthetics of the swiss skyline is utter nonsense.

The initiative was sponsored by a racist nationalist party, they make no bones about it. They also incite hatred and violence. These groups which are now forming a broad coalition in Europe consist of groups which evolved from decades ago, which used to support the Nazi regime. Seriously. IN the UK we have the BNP, which is an evolution of a famous Neo Nazi regime.

So why would a vote be needed to ban minarets when they constitute zero probelms?? When the last one was built 50 years ago? To run a campaign of hate.

Polls indicated the vote would not pass, and it would fail by a large margin. The reason for this is people were ashamed to tell pollsters the truth about the manner in which they woudl vote. Why lie, and be ashamed of the manner in which you will vote if you think it is correct? These people realized what they were doing was wrong, and lied to pollsters due to this guilt.

Its a bit moot, its almost gauranteed to be defeated in the Swiss Supreme Court.

And no Stelio, the problems with white immigrants in terms of violence against them is not a major problem, atleast in the UK. In the papers I'm always reading about horrid violence usually by the way of the BNP.

Parody thread? Do you know what parody means?

Bam! August 2009, recent enough for you? The list goes on.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-campaign.html

As a sidenote, while I completely disagree with this idiotic vote, and the results, of that switzerland vote (and switzerland is NOT part of the EU for good reasons), racism is still sometimes in the eye of the beholder.
If you were, say, a mexican in Chicago, and refused to serve white people, are you racist? I d say yes, but I'd guess quite a lot wouldnt, or at least not be certain of it.
Is it racist what the EU is currently doing in regards to the israel/palestina conflict? Is that antisemitism, because it goes against the interests of israel?
Is immigrant vs. immigrant violence any less racially motivated, by default, than immigrant vs. native, or vice versa?
Do we accept racism as part of foreign cultures? MANY countries on this world are far more xenophobic, racist, downright hate-crime infested than both europe and the USA. Is it more acceptable to us because its part of their "culture" ?

I am sure everyone got opinions and answers for these questions, but I doubt they are the same for even most of us.

What switzerland did there, in my opinion at least, is a "tyranny of the majority" kinda deal, initiated and fueled with a nationalist agenda in some ways, or at least massive intolerance towards an entire religious group, intentionally ignoring that those among that group which are actually deserving of the attributes you apply to them are a tiny minority.

Last but not least, lets propose for a minute that there is some measurable increase in safety, or at least the feeling of security from islamic fundamentalists which stems from this (ludicrous idea, yeah, but just for arguments sake), does that justify such measures which punish a large majority of innocent muslims, for the effect it has due to a radical minority?
How small can the benefit be so that we may run all over human rights, religion and values and can still justify it?

I was raised as a Hindu, but I've been aetheist for a long time. So I don't have much use for religon. But lets get real, the acceptable racism, or zenophobia right now is being anti islam, or anti arab.

I mean in my native India (born in the UK), in the mid ninties they murdered and raped 20,000 muslims in Gujraat, and it was started by the local fundamentalist hindu party! No one really cared, or spoke up.

I mean just look at some of the comments on this forum, disturbingly zenophobic. Very few here really even seems to know what is going on in Switzerland, yet they are completely fine commenting on the situation.

Khaunshar, the one thing I disagree with what you are saying is the EU being anti Israel, they are overwhelmingly pro Israel, so I'm not sure what you mean. Israel is continuing its settlements and the EU is not saying one word, its really the US which is unsuccessfully applying pressure on Israel.

But you are right many countries and cultures are racist, not just the US and Europe. The point is so much of it is directed at Arabs and Muslims now days, just as once upon a time it was the Jews. Racist groups need a group to vilify, Jews are much tougher group to go after, so the new Jews are the Muslims.

Anyway like I said, 4 minarets in ALL of Switzerland. Last one built 50 years ago. Yet people on this board still think it was a good idea. Go figure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wires/...ws_375359.html

This one. Though there are more detailed articles out there. Causes quite some debate where I live atm.

Though it doesn't solve a lot of the twists you pose, Khaunshar, a bit of a rule of thumb is that if your bigotry/bias isn't that of the dominant (ruling) culture, it's usually hard to submit as being pertinent. See anybody comparing "misandry" to misogyny or "black supremacy" to white supremacy, to keep it local (as yeah, you're going to have a hard time finding a geographic area without it's victims). Power plus hate (especially systemized) is the problem, not simply hate. Especially as the counter hate of the affronted is usually based on inequality, while the hate of the privileged is based on the perceived evaporation of their privilege.

I'm military, so the cost/benefit analysis of abandoning decency in pursuit of security is something I've argued ad nauseum for a while now. It's an interesting intellectual exercise, but from what I've seen it's largely a masturbatory tactic of the frightened and the hateful. Further oppression of a group rarely leads to increased long term security unless you're willing to fucking run with it and just wipe them out in exchange for arguable results, such as how the Syrian government handled the Muslim Brotherhood.

Personally, I have no interest in going so far for such ambiguous returns.

If several friends, family and neighbors of yours get killed, and the murderers are a well defined ethnic/religious group, you won't find it an intellectual exercise, and you will be surprised at what you are willing to give up for security. And if what you give up is in fact given up by said Ethnic/religious group, well, it's all good right?

Undoubtedly. My personal stake doesn't change the fact that I won't be any safer for putting the screws to what is inevitably a group so large as to make targeting them meritless. Chasing Perceived security based on illogical fear isn't a winning tactic.

At least not for winning whatever conflict spurred you into action in the first place.

However, as long as states and nations exist, wars have been a tool for many different tasks, and to be perfectly honest, several wars the USA has fought in the 20th century may not have been kind on those suffering through them, but have been more than useful for economic, scientific or political reasons.

Which is what I am now (as I said above) considering the primary objective behind the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars: collateral gains.

@Cylonbaby: Why are soldiers driving around in inadequately armored humvees and other such things? Very easy: Someone has to pay for it, and that someone is the United States government, by and large through taxes, taking up yet more debt and whatnot.
I assure you, the moment a nice amount of cash is to be made from protecting your soldiers, a company will step in, research produce and sell an awesomely armored, fearsomely armed and probably flying personnell carrier for a pricetag so big it gives half the country nightmares.
Nevermind most parts of it will be produced out of country, but that is the kind of deals why there is a big interest by many parties to keep at least one war going.

The government is basically the big cash cow, and as long as there are soldiers dying in afghanistan, and money could be spent to make them safer, there is pressure to do so, which in turn is exactly what corps like Lockheed Martin etc. require to stay in business.

And I wont argue that these companies also create jobs in research, manufacturing, testing and all other sorts of stuff. They are not "evil" or something, they are just interested in keeping at least one war going that creates demand for their product, just like any other of the dozens of lobbies tries to keep their little part of the market pretty and profitable.

Of course, the fuel on which these wars run are not just money, oil and materiel, its manpower too. Which is where the moral/ethical implications sometimes clash with economical and political interests.

Is the CEO of Lockheed Martin happy when a platoon of anonymous soldiers gets hit by an IED and loses people, because it adds to the pressure to produce better APCs, which in turn his companies produce? I dont know the guy, but at the very least its a mixed feeling I am sure.

There are many reasons to keep fighting this war, many people interested in keeping it going, and many people interested in stopping it. Its a tug of war between those factions, and right now, I really believe the side which wants them to go on for a few more years is the more powerful and influential.