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Amanda Knox - Page 2

post #51 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I mean, has there been any reason given as to why Knox falsely implicated Patrick Luamba?
Either your reading comprehension is very poor or you lied when you said you read the Radar's article.
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post #52 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I mean, has there been any reason given as to why Knox falsely implicated Patrick Luamba?
Well there's two answers for that one. If she's innocent, she was scared as to what was happening to her and was hoping to have someone else blamed (something almost everyone has done in life to varying degrees). And of course, if she did it, she was trying to get away with it by framing someone.
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post #53 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I'm not purposely ignoring anything. The trial may very well be overturned at appeal - that's what the appeal is for. Please read my first post again, and the others that say my main problem lies with the righteous indignation being expressed by some in the U.S., and the above-and-beyond involvement of Knox's senator and potentially the secretary of state.

I mean, Jesus Christ, you're proclaiming that the trial was rigged in her disfavour based on what? Op-ed pieces from American news sources? The fact that Italian politics is corrupt? And I'm the guy spouting nonsense here?

I mean, has there been any reason given as to why Knox falsely implicated Patrick Luamba? Or computer records not backing up a word of Sollecito's given alibi?
The fact that jurors, media and pretty much everyone in Italy declarded her guilty despite any solid evidence. But hey, it's for appeal, right?

And you didn't even read the article posted above? Fuck that, I'm done with you. Go argue with your retarded self.
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post #54 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:55pm
In the defense of Merriweather's points, it's not like the Italians detained and tortured her for several years, put the boyfriend up for trial by military tribunal, and then declared she would be found guilty and executed before the trial even began. That's how we handle foreigners in murder trials over here, apparently. And we also have the stones to argue that that kind of treatment is too fair.
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post #55 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Either your reading comprehension is very poor or you lied when you said you read the Radar's article.
I mean beyond "Oh I said that under duress", which seems to have been the reason for pretty much every questionable aspect of her involvement.
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post #56 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
And you didn't even read the article posted above? Fuck that, I'm done with you. Go argue with your retarded self.
Yes, I did. It took some doing to wade through the floried prose and fawning descriptions that the good Captain apparently so despises, but I did.

But please, call me retarded again. And throw in another generalisation about Italy based the American news coverage while we're at it!

Do you not see how silly this is? You and ElCap are doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU ACCUSE THE ITALIANS OF DOING. Court of public opnion, outraged newspaper articles, taking everything Knox and her supporters say as gospel, and so on and so forth.
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post #57 of 154
12/8/09 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
It's relevant when members of America's political establishment start openly questioning the validity of another country's justice system. You want to hurl stones at another country's courts of law, you damn well better make sure that your own house is in order first.
Congratulations, you have just nullified the ability of any government to question any other government's system, because there isn't a nation on earth that has a "perfect" system.

Quote:
There's a whiff of "we Americans should be afforded protection above all others" about the growing U.S. reaction to this case, and it's profoundly unpleasant. There are petitions calling for Barack Obama to step in, and for Italian food and holidays to be boycotted. It's bizarre and absurde, and painting Knox as some innocent victim when she has been tried and found guilty is an insult to the memory of Meredith Kercher. Perhaps Knox's supporters should think before exonerating Knox in the court of public opinion, given that they blame her "guilty" verdict on the exact same thing.
KNOWN FACT: Amanda Knox has been painted by the Italian media as the "Evil American Temptress" in this case almost since the moment she became a publicly-known suspect in the case.

KNOWN FACT: Italian juries in criminal cases are not required to be sequestered, not forbidden from discussing the case outside of court, and we have statements from jurors presupposing her guilt prior to the trial even beginning. Does this sound like a fair and impartial system to you?

If Amanda Knox did NOT have a hand in Meredith Kercher's death, you feel it's better that two innocent (or up to four if you count the male suspects) lives are lost or ruined rather than dare have someone in a political position in the United States question whether the trial was actually fair? All because "The US isn't perfect either, you know!" Bullshit.
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post #58 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:02pm
As an American citizen, the constitution allows us to insult victims all day long. Now if you perceive an insult, then be insulted. Nobody is going to shut people up to protect a person or country's feelings on a court case or any matter.

We can also question verdicts. Part of the fun of reasonable doubt in America is that it is not cut and dry. Public opinion does not end because an Italian court says Ms. Knox is guilty. We look at a court case through our system.

(And by the way, McKinnon and his Aspergers is b.s. He hacked the Pentagon because he's a dick. If its not, then trust the US court system, like you trust the Italians judicial process, to produce a proper resolution to the matter.)

Now I don't care about Ms. Knox. If some miscarriage of justice occurred, then I hope the appeals process takes care of it. If not, then she will go to jail. Either way, I will keep eating Italian food because it's delicious.
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post #59 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:02pm
Thread Starter 
I love that my original point has also been buried here - that there are great reasons as to why Knox's predicament is getting so much play while other miscarriages of justice go unexplored.

I've gotten sidetracked here.
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post #60 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:05pm
Congratulations, you've cracked the nigh-indecipherable code that tells us "white girls in trouble make better news copy than minorities and that's crazy". Well played indeed. If you could focus that laser precision on the Louvre, then Dan Brown would be out of a job!
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post #61 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I love that my original point has also been buried here - that there are great reasons as to why Knox's predicament is getting so much play while other miscarriages of justice go unexplored.

I've gotten sidetracked here.
Sure, because she's white, reasonably pretty, and has reasonably well-off parents (the type that can appeal to the media).

But we're discussing her case here, not other potential miscarriages of justice.
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post #62 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I love that my original point has also been buried here - that there are great reasons as to why Knox's predicament is getting so much play while other miscarriages of justice go unexplored.

I've gotten sidetracked here.
Do you know how much of an asshole you are? You got me and Cap to agree on something. That's how vile you are.
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post #63 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:09pm
Thread Starter 
So that's not worth discussing because it's already so obvious?

Besides, it's not just that. It's that people of the American public - and American politicians along with it - would rather pick a fight with another country over issues that their very own country struggles with every day. Again, I know that's not particularly groundbreaking or insightful as an observation, but it's still horribly depressing.

Outstanding sarcasm on your part, though.
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post #64 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Do you know how much of an asshole you are? You got me and Cap to agree on something. That's how vile you are.
I'm vile? What the Hell?
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post #65 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Do you know how much of an asshole you are? You got me and Cap to agree on something. That's how vile you are.
Wonder if it's snowing in hell?
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post #66 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:12pm
It's been discussed to death, and you shitting a bear over it isn't going to enlighten anybody. You just look like a reactionary prick with an axe to grind with the forum.
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post #67 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
Wonder if it's snowing in hell?
Right now, it's raining Italian pigs in Hell. Delicious pigs, that it.
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post #68 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I mean beyond "Oh I said that under duress", which seems to have been the reason for pretty much every questionable aspect of her involvement.
Since you refuse to read the article, let me just cut and paste to make it easier for you to digest;

Quote:
Knox has since reverted to
her original story, explaining that in the confusion of the interrogation,
during which she was allegedly struck by police, she had been asked to
imagine who might have been interested in Kercher. According to an
inside source, Lumumba, who knew both girls, may have aroused the
police’s interest because hair belonging to a black man had been found
in Kercher’s hand. Sources also believe that police raised Lumumba as a
possible person of interest during Knox’s interrogation. It was only after
that point that she accused him, as she struggled to find
an answer to the investigators’ angry questions.
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post #69 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:18pm
Thread Starter 
My apologies. I have no axe to grind with anyone. And I guess I've been pretty confrontational.

I guess I'm just pissed that this entrie case seems to be devolving into an international game of "he said, she said". Throwing senatorial statements and outraged tabloid articles into the mix doesn't right the balance - it just swings the pendulum the other way, from "Knox is the devil" to "well, Knox MUST be innocent". How does that help? I mean, Cap, with all due respect, you're using an article that employs such qualifiers as "sources say", and "an inside source". How is that any more reliable or concrete than Italian newspaper articles painting Knox as an American she-devil?

But yeah. I'm sorry for being a dick about it.
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post #70 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:25pm
I'm not trying to say she's innocent. It just seems to me like there's enough reasonable doubt to make it questionable. In an American court, in theory (I stress), that would call for a "not guilty" verdict. I don't know if the Italian system relies on reasonable doubt, and I do know that the media presentation of the case may very well have tainted the jury prior to the trial beginning.

Unless there was a lot more hard forensic evidence presented at the trial that the media isn't privy to (and it seems like the media had pretty much complete public access to the trial proceedings, so that seems unlikely), they seem to be convicting her based on "Well, she's a little squirrelly, didn't have a nervous breakdown over her roommates' death (or did she?), and the news says she must be guilty."

She very well may be nuts, but whether she's murderously so is another matter entirely.
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post #71 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
I mean, Cap, with all due respect, you're using an article that employs such qualifiers as "sources say", and "an inside source". How is that any more reliable or concrete than Italian newspaper articles painting Knox as an American she-devil?
Really? I mean, you've never read articles from reputable news sources quote unnamed sources?

And you're honestly comparing that article to a tabloid about her being a "she-devil"??? (whatever that means).

I mean look at the picture of her that scandalized people in Italy, I mean ... what the hell?



Quote:
One of the images from her MySpace
page, published countless times, shows
Knox clad in black heels, dress pants,
and a form-fitting long-sleeved black
top, posing with her leg up on a piano
bench. Her eyes are smudged with
black eyeliner and mascara, and though the overall effect is more elegant
than sleazy, the photo appeared alongside many articles to illustrate her
supposed promiscuity. Amanda’s younger sister, 19-year-old Deanna,
took that picture. She says she snapped it for an advanced photography
class and asked Amanda to put on makeup “so her features would be
more pronounced.” There is a clear edge of exasperation in Curt’s voice
when he says, “So basically the perception that the media is using—that
this is a provocative image—that’s a school assignment for her sister.”
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post #72 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:39pm
Thread Starter 
Oh, I'm not arguing that the Italian media didn't overreact. I just think that having the American media and politicians reacting just as extremely in the opposite direction is a no-win situation.

I have no problems with "unnamed sources". But when they're used to debunk points in a murder trial then I feel we're back to "he said she said" territory. And for what it's worth, I woulc compare the descriptive text of Knox in that article to the equally silly "she-devil" stuff. Has anyone outside of Hallmark used the word "winsome" seriously in the last forty years?

I just don't get how calling for the involvement of the political establishment will help. Clinton exerting pressure on Italy or the EU is just another form of external interference in a trial which apparently has too much already.
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post #73 of 154
12/8/09 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
I'm not trying to say she's innocent. It just seems to me like there's enough reasonable doubt to make it questionable. In an American court, in theory (I stress), that would call for a "not guilty" verdict. I don't know if the Italian system relies on reasonable doubt, and I do know that the media presentation of the case may very well have tainted the jury prior to the trial beginning.

Unless there was a lot more hard forensic evidence presented at the trial that the media isn't privy to (and it seems like the media had pretty much complete public access to the trial proceedings, so that seems unlikely), they seem to be convicting her based on "Well, she's a little squirrelly, didn't have a nervous breakdown over her roommates' death (or did she?), and the news says she must be guilty."

She very well may be nuts, but whether she's murderously so is another matter entirely.
These are all some very solid points. There's not a substantial amount of evidence (even circumstantial) that would lead one to suspect that Knox is guilty, but she sure does come off as a sociopath.

From her flirting to the camera, to her displaying no emotion, and then to her breaking down in court and acting emotional, it really seems like she was putting on an act for the audience and jury. This doesn't mean she was guilty of murder, but there are definitely some issues with her.

The only people in the news in the last year or so I think that can compete with her in the terms of her being a sociopath are Casie Anthony and the Craigslist Killer.
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post #74 of 154
12/8/09 at 2:07pm
White chicks in peril, man. Always a cause worth fighting for.
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post #75 of 154
12/8/09 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
A lesson we could all learn from the Wayans brothers.
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post #76 of 154
12/8/09 at 2:40pm
The entire case is pretty fascinating. I think for a lot of Americans it's captivating because what we take for granted (sequestered jury, non-bat shit crazy prosecutors who make allegations without substantiation) is entirely absent from the proceedings. Had this murder occurred on American soil things would have gone down differently. (That super rich boyfriend probably wouldn't have been convicted and the guy who raped and murdered her then left his dump in her toilet would have likely been the only person accused of the crime).

Was she guilty? I haven't a clue. Was her trial fair? By Italian standards YES. Does America have a right to intervene? Heck to the no. Should America intervene? Heck to the no.

People tend to forget that despite the media slut shaming and the bat shit crazy prosecutor and Knox's questionably acquired confession she actually had very good, very well paid lawyers and a fairly significant positive media machine behind her. Heck the super rich and connected boyfriend was also convicted.

And if she really wasn't guilty? Well the Italian's have an appeals process! Huzzah!

AND there's the civil suit. The one where the victim's parents are suing her and the other two for something like 50 million American.
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post #77 of 154
12/8/09 at 2:53pm
"Five Ways America Can Get Back at Italy for the Amanda Knox Trial"

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...an_get_bac.php
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post #78 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:19pm
In a serious note, googling around after reading the Radar article this account from one of the writers of "The Monster of Florence", sheds a bit more light on the same prosecutor in this case;

http://johnbakersblog.co.uk/the-monster-of-florence/

Quote:
Without a lawyer or a translator present(familiar?), Mignini proceeded to interrogate me for almost three hours. He asked me about my relationship with Spezi, how long I had known him, and he asked many, many detailed questions about our activities as journalists and our sources. When my answers did not satisfy him, he became excited and aggressive, repeating the same questions over and over again, reading back my answers and seizing on every mispronounced or stumbled-over word as evidence I was lying. He played for me a telephone conversation I had had with Spezi a few days before which they had wiretapped, demanding to know what each word and phrase “really meant.” He threatened me with an indictment (an “avviso”) if I didn’t tell him what we were “really doing” as journalists. I asked him if he thought I had committed a crime and he said, yes—to whit: Spezi and I (he said) had planted or were planning to plant a gun in an attempt to obstruct a police investigation; that we intended to frame an innocent man for murder; and (most incredibly) that I was an accessory after the fact to murder. Judge Mignini then announced he was indicting me for perjury. (To be absolutely accurate, by “indictment” I mean that I was officially recorded as a suspect in the crime and became “una persona indagata” and so informed through an “avviso di garanzia.”) I was forced to sign a document which was an alleged transcription of my interrogation. Judge Mignini then informed me that my investigation would be temporarily suspended so that I could leave Italy, but that it would be reinstated later.
Mignini is of course under investigation and has been accused of making up fantastical stories before in order to explain unsolved crimes.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp

Quote:
In a bizarre turnaround, Mignini himself is now on trial for abuse of office and conflict of interest, even though he continues to prosecute the Kercher case, as Corriere della Serra revealed on Jan. 18.

"The Florentine prosecutor, Luca Turco, has accused Mignini of being 'in thrall to a sort of delirium' in his handling of the Monster case, in which he fantasized amazing and complex Satanic conspiracies," says Preston. "I believe the same could be said of his handling of the Kercher case, that he is suffering from some kind of delirium. "
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post #79 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
In a serious note, googling around after reading the Radar article this account from one of the writers of "The Monster of Florence", sheds a bit more light on the same prosecutor in this case;

http://johnbakersblog.co.uk/the-monster-of-florence/



Mignini is of course under investigation and has been accused of making up fantastical stories before in order to explain unsolved crimes.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp

That doesn't sound so unusual. Not much different from a murder interrogation in the US (at least based on what I've seen on THE WIRE etc). "When he didn't like my answers he asked me questions... AGAIN! Boo hoo hoo" Seriously? You're going to have to come up with more than that to convince me there was a miscarriage of justice . (For the record, the Jury Selection seems way more effed up than than the questioning)
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post #80 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
That doesn't sound so unusual. Not much different from a murder interrogation in the US (at least based on what I've seen on THE WIRE etc). "When he didn't like my answers he asked me questions... AGAIN! Boo hoo hoo" Seriously? You're going to have to come up with more than that to convince me there was a miscarriage of justice . (For the record, the Jury Selection seems way more effed up than than the questioning)
Once again, the Italian justice system deemed the interrogation inadmissible so I don't really have to convince you of anything. I'm just posting the account of the author because you see a pattern with this one prosecutor (see his Satanic cult from the middle ages needing body parts for Black Masses idiotic theory on the 'Monster of Florence' case)
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post #81 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:37pm
While I'm a fan of Douglas Preston as a mystery/thriller novelist, and have read all of his (and Lincoln Child's) Pendergast books, and have read the beginning of "The Monster of Florence," I would not count on him as an extremely accurate source on Mignini. Even though he did a lot of research on the Italy's police force and their legal system for "The Monster of Florence," he kind of comes off as someone with an axe to grind in his interviews.

He was on the "Today" show a couple of weeks ago speaking about his experiences and their relation to the Knox trial, and came off as being extremely biased. ]
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post #82 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:40pm
True ... however the prosecutor is being investigated, the Florence prosecutor did call him delusional, Mignini Monster of Florence theory does sound in line with his theories behind this current case and the charges against Spezi were dropped. Those are facts.
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post #83 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Once again, the Italian justice system deemed the interrogation inadmissible so I don't really have to convince you of anything. I'm just posting the account of the author because you see a pattern with this one prosecutor (see his Satanic cult from the middle ages needing body parts for Black Masses idiotic theory on the 'Monster of Florence' case)
1) I am not saying I agree with that questioning

2) Good that it got thrown out

3) We sentence people to death in this country based upon evidence collected from similar abusive interrogations. I just don't like the fact there are people in this country crying it happened to a white girl, but if a black girl went through the same kangeroo court in Alabama, it would hardly be news
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post #84 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
1) I am not saying I agree with that questioning

2) Good that it got thrown out

3) We sentence people to death in this country based upon evidence collected from similar abusive interrogations. I just don't like the fact there are people in this country crying it happened to a white girl, but if a black girl went through the same kangeroo court in Alabama, it would hardly be news
You're welcome to your righteous indignation on that subject. Meanwhile the topic of this thread is Amanda Knox. Feel free to start another thread on someone you feel is getting railroaded. Just bear in mind that if you're leaning towards "She must be guilty because the media in the US is painting her as the helpless pretty white girl victim" you're just as guilty of the same thing you're condemn
ing, just in reverse.
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post #85 of 154
12/8/09 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
You're welcome to your righteous indignation on that subject. Meanwhile the topic of this thread is Amanda Knox. Feel free to start another thread on someone you feel is getting railroaded. Just bear in mind that if you're leaning towards "She must be guilty because the media in the US is painting her as the helpless pretty white girl victim" you're just as guilty of the same thing you're condemn
ing, just in reverse.
You'll notice that I only got into that subject after a explaining my thoughts on KNOX in detail.


I also have NO clue if she is guilty or not. I'm going entirely on media reports. I am completely unfamiliar with the evidence against her. This is a tabloid story essentially (even if the next 26 years of her life are in the balance) and I am treating it as such.
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post #86 of 154
12/8/09 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
see his Satanic cult from the middle ages needing body parts for Black Masses idiotic theory on the 'Monster of Florence' case
Despite the fact that Stone Phillips is NO Keith Morrison, all that satanic cult bullshit made for a truly epic Dateline episode on the Monster of Florence.
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post #87 of 154
12/8/09 at 8:35pm
This stuff is pretty crazy, note that they dropped this aspect of the case because it was too crazy, but this was the prosecutors "going in" position.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ck-981759.html

Quote:
Mr Mignini decided only a few days after Meredith died that the murder was the culmination of an orgy in which Amanda, Raffaele and one other person were involved. And in court on 19 October he explained in more detail what he meant.

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported him telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite ... In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Hallowe’en itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”

Mr Mignini saw the scene so clearly in his mind that he was able to describe it to the judge in detail: Meredith on her knees before the wardrobe, Rudy holding her immobile, Raffaele grasping one arm, Amanda in front of her, pricking her throat teasingly with the knife – until the blade in her hand struck home. “To prove it,” he told the judge triumphantly, “the only thing missing was a video camera in the room.”

Given such a weighty consensus, the outside world would be forgiven for sorrowfully shaking its head at the terrible things young people get up to these days. One would take for granted that Mr Mignini must have excellent sources – witness testimony, forensic findings, even confessions – for his shocking description.
Look what Dan Brown has done!

Quote:
Meredith and Amanda went to two universities, Leeds and Seattle, which “have become recruitment bases for Masonic orders, both deviant and non-deviant, and of Esoteric Schools,” she claims. These Schools brainwash their initiates into believing that it is right to offer “even the sacrifice of their own lives in a secret ritual, sacrifices often made voluntarily”.

Death, for these sad dupes, is no problem: they have become convinced “that life goes on after physical death, a barrier which, once overcome, allows them to cross the threshold of ‘mystery’ and ascend to the ‘superior ranks’ which rule humanity from beyond.”

Presuming that Leeds and Seattle host such secret organisations – Leeds is immediately suspect because of its rose symbol, even though it’s the wrong colour – and presuming also (because there is no evidence for it) that the two women belonged to them, the murder is easily explained: one of them had to die and the other had to kill, in a ritual of sacrifice. “It matters little which dies and which stays alive,” she explains. “What is of fundamental importance is the single motivation that both of them have ‘obeyed’ and of which both then become ‘victims’.”

Meredith’s murder, she concludes, is “a crime which has all the characteristics of a ritual culminating in human sacrifice, to which the victim may have submitted voluntarily.” Daringly, she also drags Meredith’s bereaved father into the scenario. “I ask myself if someone in Meredith’s family was aware of the presumed membership of the girl to the Esoteric School of the Red Rose.” Why so? Because “on the eighth day (you see the esoteric symbolism) after the death of his daughter... he left a single red rose (in her memory) in the cloister of Perugia cathedral.”
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post #88 of 154
12/8/09 at 10:11pm
I'd be pretty fascinated at what the American media, public and political response would be if the roles were reversed and Italy was banging a drum of outrage for one of their pretty rich young female citizens if an American court had found them guilty of murder.

I'm just sayin'.
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post #89 of 154
12/8/09 at 10:23pm
I'm trying to remember a comparable case but I can't seem to conjure one up.

On the other hand we have a very similar example with a prosecutor gone wild in the Duke LaCrosse rape case, thankfully in that one the prosecutor ended up paying for his excesses. Funny thing is that what Nifong did in that case seems a bit tame when compared to what his Italian counterpart has gotten away with.
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post #90 of 154
12/8/09 at 10:32pm
but El Cap if the prosecuter was really that dodgy well, that's what there's an appeal process for - why exactly should American politicians feel they have the right to get involved exactly?
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post #91 of 154
12/8/09 at 10:40pm
First of all, which US politician is getting "involved"?
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post #92 of 154
12/8/09 at 10:44pm
Maria Cantwell for starters, Hillary Clinton for agreeing to meet with her over it for seconds.
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post #93 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:03pm
Let's see Cantwell is a Senator from Knox's state, I don't think it's scandalous that she's advocating for the rights of one of the citizens of her state. Has she introduced legislation to punish Italy for this sentence?

Secretary of State Clinton has said she has no opinion on the case, but will listen to anybody that "has a concern". Wow ... scandalous.

On the other hand we have a prosecutor that was motivated by a satanic orgy/cult ritual ceremony, as evidenced by *MANGA* comics present in one of the accused's room and who is being investigated for prosecutorial misconduct.
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post #94 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
but El Cap if the prosecuter was really that dodgy well, that's what there's an appeal process for - why exactly should American politicians feel they have the right to get involved exactly?
Is the appeals process guaranteed to be any more fair or impartial than the initial trial was?

Quite frankly, if a pretty young Italian Girl had gotten into a similar situation in the US, based on the general lack of forensic evidence she probably never even would have made it to trial. She -might- have gotten deported, but I find it doubtful that most judges would have indicted her for murder on such scant "hard" evidence. Maybe an accessory. Maybe granted immunity for testimony against one or more of the other suspects, but I don't think she'd have been convicted, and I honestly don't think the American media in general would portray her as some sex-crazed supervixen to the extent that the Italian media did with Knox. Sure, Nancy Grace probably would, but "guilty until proven guilty" is kind of her shtick.

I know people are criticizing the emotional appeals of both sides during the long trial, but the thought springs to mind that the "emotional appeal" might actually be more important than the hard facts in Italian criminal proceedings. Maybe this prosecutor's theatricality is actually typical or accepted practice there. (Though apparently he is under investigation).
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post #95 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Let's see Cantwell is a Senator from Knox's state, I don't think it's scandalous that she's advocating for the rights of one of the citizens of her state. Has she introduced legislation to punish Italy for this sentence?

Secretary of State Clinton has said she has no opinion on the case, but will listen to anybody that "has a concern". Wow ... scandalous.

On the other hand we have a prosecutor that was motivated by a satanic orgy/cult ritual ceremony, as evidenced by *MANGA* comics present in one of the accused's room and who is being investigated for prosecutorial misconduct.
Again, that's what there's an appeal process for - and fucking hell you can be a condescending arse sometimes.

...and there's a wjole shitload of assumptions being made here about both the Italian system of justice and what would have happened had this been in an American court of law - and not a lot of it seemingly based on much more than "our system is right and just and theirs is wrong and dodgy", combined with a fair amount of po-faced indignation from many of the american chewers on this thread.
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post #96 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:18pm
hahaha ... I'm not trying to be condescending at all, just trying to put things into perspective.

I may be the wrong guy to ask because I don't mind it if officials from other governments make sane criticisms of our justice system. I'm against the death penalty and I think everybody has a right to point out how it is the wrong thing to enforce in this country, even if its the law. I see no problem with that.

If these politicians were retaliating diplomatically, it would be another issue. As it is, this Hillary thing is a distraction, the real scandal is the prosecution's behavior in this case.
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post #97 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
hahaha ... I'm not trying to be condescending at all, just trying to put things into perspective.

I may be the wrong guy to ask because I don't mind it if officials from other governments make sane criticisms of our justice system. I'm against the death penalty and I think everybody has a right to point out how it is the wrong thing to enforce in this country, even if its the law. I see no problem with that.
Okay fair enough.

Quote:
If these politicians were retaliating diplomatically, it would be another issue. As it is, this Hillary thing is a distraction, the real scandal is the prosecution's behavior in this case.
Yeah but that's a real scandal for the Italians to sort out, US senators and Hillary getting involved start giving it the colour of an international incedent.
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post #98 of 154
12/8/09 at 11:25pm
Hillary Clinton is not getting involved, of course she will meet with a US Senator to "hear her concerns". If that scandalizes the Italians, it's really their problem.
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post #99 of 154
12/18/10 at 3:14pm
Just posting to add this story to the thread, which seems to spell good news for Ms Knox (if she's in fact telling the truth)

A court in Italy decided that she could get a second review of the DNA evidence

As you can tell from the start of this thread, I used to be against her. Recently though I've grown disgusted with the vile things the victim's family has been saying to the press in the UK, and Knox has regained some of my sympathy. If she is indeed innocent (I maintain she still looks guilty, but I'm beginning to doubt my own judgment on the matter), then this is a Christmas wish come true for her and her family
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post #100 of 154
7/3/11 at 12:32pm

Pretty interesting story in the new Rolling Stone detailing just how badly this case has been fucked up.

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