Avatar post-release discussion - Page 10

Well, it's true. It is a pulp film. Sadly, it's a very boring pulp film.

I love the visuals and would tell anyone to go see it just for those. It's beautiful and awe inspiring. Love Pandora, love the beasties and even enjoyed the Na'vi.

The story was as advertised, cliche and trite. But had it zipped along I could've forgiven that. Instead it's just kind plods along. Had Cameron used the tropes of the genre to hasten the pace, to get us to the interesting parts I would've loved it. Instead he has to hit every beat and bore us to tears with a story we've seen hundreds of times before.

Same here, and it was nice to see her smiling in a role instead of the normal scowl. She wasn't Vasquez, which I was happy about. But, as broad and cliche as Vasquez is(less at the time Aliens came out, I suppose), she was at least memorable. Rodriguez' name could have been "pilot" for all I know.

I didn't get her motivation for anything she did, either, and didn't care when she bit it. I don't think I cared when ANY of the characters bit it*, actually, which is a pretty big fault.

*Maybe Weaver, but just a little bit.

Why the fuck am I on here talking about Avatar, anyway?! I'm on vacation. Stupid addictive CHUD.

You see, what I loved about it is that even though the Na'vi had a mystical ceremony, the planet is nothing mystical at all. It's a symbiotic network, a kind of hive brain system. It's farfetched, but I love the concept that all the lifeforms are essentially workers of a larger organism. It plays against the typical stereotypes for this sort of thing.

The more I reflect, the more I think that a lot of the problems might have been solved if it was just funny. If Sully had been funny, or the Navi, or even just the movie itself, I think it would have flowed and engaged way more. Instead, nothing funny in the whole movie. Except Stephen Lang's Mech having a knife.

Except for that tree that can beam your soul into a new body.

I dunno, the "Gaia theory" is nothing new to science fiction. In fact, science fiction came up with it before scientists did. I can think of a couple of pulp works off-hand that have since exploited it.

Gotta say though, this movie does make me excited for Cameron's contribution to the forthcoming Heavy Metal movie. A short, trashy, animated bit of scifi pulp is something he'd be perfect for.

It was a passable timewaster, and it's nice that Cameron still knows how to direct an action scene (and build the tension up to it). But you know what really bugged me about this? I don't think the awkward dialogue, thin characters or predictable plot would have mattered nearly as much if Cameron had actually done what he'd set out to do, which was bring to life a truly alien planet, ecosystem, and culture.

Yeah, sure, it looked great, and there were some nice touches--the floating mountains were an interesting terrain, and the "neural network" among the life forms was a cool idea that really wasn't explored enough. But other than that, and the bioluminescence, the whole world felt half-assed.

I'll tell you what my big hope going in was: I was hoping to see some lifeforms behaving like real animals, alien or otherwise. None of this "stopping to roar in the hero's face instead of just biting his head off" shit (the hammerhead rhino thing gets a pass because it was making a threat display, but then seconds later you've got the tiger thing giving Jake all the time in the world to run away, wasting energy snapping and slashing at him, etc. etc. etc. That's not how hunting animals act. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but this is supposed to be the movie's raison d'etre, right? Immersing us in a realistic biosphere?

Then you've got the fact that, except for the dragons (which are the kind of thing we've seen before anyway), all the Pandoran creatures are just analogues of Earth creatures. You've got monkeys, birds, rhinos, tigers, dogs, bugs, horses, blah blah fucking blah. And of course this extends to the Na'vi being insultingly stereotypical native Americans. Wow, great job creating a dazzlingly original alien world, there, Jim. Jimbo. Jimmy-Jim Jim. Seriously, other than the USB ports in their heads, was there a single idea about the Na'vi culture that wasn't imported direct from Earth cultures?

District 9 has officially made a mockery of any Hollywood movie that thinks aliens have to be human-looking for us to relate to them. And Wayne Barlowe, who designed the alien life forms for Avatar (apparently he's working on the upcoming John Carter movie as well?) has a book called Expedition, detailing an alien biosphere that's about a dozen times more original and interesting and ALIEN than anything in this movie.

That's the thing. I don't think it was a Gaia theory thing, at least in the traditional terms. What I got out of it was that the planet was essentially a heuristic, organic computer network. And the transference at the end wasn't a mystical action, but basically, a transference of data (though my one quibble with that would be how that could work with a human, who has no built-in interface).

That would be nice, but I don't know if I trust him with the short form - I was bitterly disappointed with Dark Angel.

Please explain in further detail why you feel American culture and discourse should be dictated by pants-wetting homunculi with underdeveloped cerebral cortexes

Right, I forgot that bit. The timeline's still weird though. Was the twin just about to ship out from Earth when he got killed? They say he'd been training for a while, which I would expect would have happened on Pandora.

Okay, new question. How does the whole remote-consciousness thing work? The avatars don't have minds of their own (except, apparently, for vital functions) which means anytime an avatar is walking and talking it's receiving an unbroken transmission from the human at home base. We're shown, several times, that this is a technological process with an on-off switch; it's not ESP. So how can the signal get through the disruption around the Floating Mountain Area that messes with all other instrumentation?

ETA one more: Given that Jake's avatar represented such a huge investment that the company was willing to assign it a completely untrained pilot based upon biological compatibility alone, why was the support team so casual about leaving him to fend for himself in the forest (pretty sure they actually say he's facing certain death) that first night?

Come on, the planet sends a fuckton of brainless animals after the marines when someone prays for help. Animals who, it should be pointed out, we never once see plugged into the planet's hive brain. The fact that nerds will retroactively No-Prize some sort of explanation doesn't change the fact that it's still goopy, sophomoric mysticism.

I did wonder why all the other lifeforms on Pandora seemed to have six limbs but the Na'vi had four. The real reason is undoubtedly that it would look weird to have four-armed Na'vi running around (and would be much more of a pain to animate), but if you assume evolution on Pandora followed a similar pattern as it did here on Earth, you'd think there'd be some similar symmetry going on.

Don't tell Pixar!

Yeah, I also have that book and Alien Planet, the cg animated Discovery Channel special that's based on it. Highly recommended both of them.

Has there been any word from Cameron if there're any deleted/missing scenes or a Director's Cut coming up?

Well, if the absolute only way Avatar MUST be seen is in 3D IMAX, I'm thinking that the eventual DVD release will be pretty underwhelming. On DVD you'll get the hokey mysticism and generic story, but without the gee-whiz visuals.

I think it's why Devin's comparison of Avatar to Peter Jackson's Kong is apt.

The CGI work is strong enough to work without 3D.

I can't imagine this film being an awesome viewing experience outside of a theater. Its lifeline is in the awe factor. There's not gonna be much awe watching this at home with a pair of crusty 3D glasses.

The CGI in Jackson's Kong was spectacular as well; the story, not so much. I saw it in theaters and during its cable TV run. You definitely lose patience with the story and goofy characters when you shrink the flick down to TV size.

It is strong, no doubt. Only if the CGI were a part of some truly interesting characters...

Although I have yet to see Avatar, I think the Star Wars comparisons are wrong headed.

I mean, do you actually have the equivalent in Avatar of the sheer, swaggering charisma of the young Harrison Ford as Han Solo? A villain as cool as Vader with James Earl Jones' deep rumble? That character and Darth Vader were the lasting impressions people had. Little kids wanted to *be* Han Solo.

I doubt Sam Worthington is a young Harrison Ford. I didn't see that in Mcg's Terminator.

As I walked out of the theater with my bride, we came to the agreement that if Pixar had made this movie, they'd have spent a good five years on the story alone. Then *everything* about it would have popped.

Well, I saw it today with my wife. She greatly enjoyed it, and I enjoyed it probably just a bit less than she did. Probably taking my 8 year old son tomorrow, and I'm sure he'll be blown away. All though I've warned him that it's almost 3 hours long. He said, "Like Curse of the Black Pearl?" and I told him it's exactly about that long (he actually said at one point during Black Pearl, "When will this be over?"). Although I did get him to watch Star Trek IV with me tonight, and he liked it--first Star Trek movie he's ever seen. I'm working him up to watching the new ST movie.

The effects were just incredible, though. I thought the Na'vi would bug the crap out of me the whole movie, because I just didn't like how they looked in the previews. But I pretty much forgot about that once they got going.

Naw, we all wanted to be Luke. It wasn't until high school, when we figured out it was cool to be a selfish asshole, that we wanted to be Han.

The Pixar thing is apt, because John Carter of Mars is probably the upcoming film that most resembles Avatar. Damn, imagining this movie's scifi pulp sensibility and visuals with Pixar's attention to character and story...that'll be the shit.

Saw avatar tonight. Loved it as an experience....sorry some have died inside to the point where Avatar cannot be enjoyed.

Oh, fuck off, fanboy. Finding problems with the story and characters doesn't mean we're dead inside. It means we were paying attention.

Funny thing. Unlike Sherlock Holmes (which has only gotten better with time), I've already soured quite a bit on Avatar after a single day. At this point, unless I get dragged to the theater over Christmas, I can't imagine ever watching it again.

I sooked up like a little bitch within the first ten minutes of Up; only tears shed during Avatar were ones of near boredom. It's not about some pussy-ass dying on the inside guff it's about quality storytelling, thanks!

What really surprises me is a lot of the reactions to this movie. People love it and get hurt if others dislike it and those that dislike view the former with a big ol' wad of contempt. Then there is bickering and name calling and someone starts questioning the other person's intelligence.

I just don't get how EITHER side has that much passion for the film.

Just got home from watching it and i really enjoyed it. I could tell what was going to happen from the start but it didn't ruin it for me.

Welcome to the internet.

This being the internet, I don't think anyone really cares as much as they let on. That said, did you miss the reactions to Watchmen, Dark Knight or Indiana Jones 4?

I surely enjoyed Avatar, but I had more emotional investment in, say, Fantastic Mr. Fox. And I'm not quite sure how anyone other than pre-adolescents or someone that just doesn't watch many movies could be so enthralled by these characters.

I recently caught about twenty minutes of the Disney animated film Atlantis, which oddly, has a really similar plot and characters. It's not very good at all, but if James Cameron had made the same script using Avatar tech, I think the end result would be about as strong as Avatar ended up.

Although in the end, I didn't think much of the story or characters, the technical merits of Avatar are nothing to sniff at. I did really enjoy those a hell of a lot.

Honest to God/Super Tree, it's only been a day or so and I can barely remember a damn thing about Avatar other than the sense-memory of a yawn.

I remember images that impressed me, but out of context. Dialogue has gone (scoff all you like but Terminator, Aliens and T2 had some damn memorable lines) and the story is vague at best. The same feelings I had roughly a week after Jackson's King Kong, only I actually enjoyed Kong in the theater and felt somewhat moved by Kong's plight.

I don't hold anyone in contemt for enjoying the film on it's own terms, I wish I had enjoyed it even half as much as they did, but I take issue with people like VT (or just about anyone posting on the comments section of Devin's review) who feel the need to insult those that failed to have a religious experience with this movie.

I don't know, I stll remember Stephen Lang's lines.

And random marine in mech's, "git some."

It was indeed the RealD 3-D system. I was very surprised that it looked so shitty because I was at the Alamo Drafthouse, a place run by and for cinephiles, and I thought it would look better. I guess it's not their fault if it's a limitation of the RealD system, but I will certainly not be seeing another 3-D movie at the Drafthouse.

I'm not up on 3D tech, but I saw this at the Arclight and it had a pretty good picture. The system was from XpanD, which is apparently active polarization. How is that supposed to compare to RealD?

Sherlock Holmes hasn't been released yet so how could it already be getting better with time? Unless you saw a special preview screening or are referring to the marketing...

Yeah, good point. The last thing we should in determining whether a movie is made for adults or children is refer to the one and only metric we have for determining such a thing.

I am getting enough shit already so I may never post this on the front page but..

Yeah, Prankster's right. It's a fucking glo-in-the-dark jungle and variations on monsters from STAR TREK and STAR WARS (prequels). I wish someone could explain to me how this is an immersive alien world, because it seems like a pretty standard set of bullshit to me.

saw it. enjoyed it. blah blah.

the entire running time the only thought running through my head was "where the fuck is michael biehn?" If there was any role made for him, ever, Stephen Lang's role was it.

as luck would have it, just came across this on the imdb..

fuck.

Jesus Horse-Fucking Christ...

This isn't even knee-jerk fanboy defensiveness. This is just the basic ability to look at film with an objectively critical eye.

As I am not interested in derailing this thread into a pointless Star Wars vs Avatar debate, let's just leave it at this: Talk to me in 30 years. If people are still interested enough in Avatar to even still be discussing it, I will offer you a sincere apology for considering it a mildly entertaining movie that doesn't compare to a bona-fide classic.

I'll have to agree with this. The only creature design I found non-derivative and imaginative were those gecko-things that turned into bright orange whirly-gigs as a defensive measure. Those little dudes were pretty cool.

Every time I saw a Pandoran animal, all I could think was Attack of the Clones...Attack of the Clones...

Okay, I don't know what it is about the Avatar haters, but this is really not cool. I don't know what it is that's causing this aggressive bullshit all over the pace, but please, I BEG you, tone it down a notch. Let's not be talkbackers.

I'm FINE with people not liking the film. I'm fine with discussing specifics. But it's like the fact that people like this film that is driving people crazy, and making it their mission in life that liking this film = I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE A MISERABLE EXPERIENCE.

You're a good and intelligent guy. You don't need to be going around telling people to fuck off and calling them fanboys. I got heated about this topic before I even SAW the movie, and I realized it was a shitty thing to do. May I ask you to please tone it down and keep this fun and not a hate-fest, okay? This is about a popular entertainment.

Thanks.

Slater is like miracle whip.
HE WILL NOT TONE IT DOWN.

It says you've been around since 02, you should know this!

I honestly don't care whether you liked the film or not. If you thought it was a masterpiece or a transcendent experience, more power to ya. I'm jealous I didn't have the same experience, but I'm happy that you did.

But "anybody who doesn't like this movie is dead inside" is Browncoat territory, and if that's the only thing V.T. has to contribute to the conversation, then yeah, he can fuck off. Because that's just the flipside of "Anybody who enjoys Avatar is a retard." They're both fanboy blanket statements that wind up derailing entire threads for pages at a time.

And Thunderbird: Sherlock Holmes has been screening for awards consideration for a month now.

Well, in Slater's defense, he was responding to someone saying that if you didn't enjoy Avatar you're dead inside. Usually, reactionary hyperbole is met with more reactionary hyperbole.

Edit: And Slater himself beat me to it.

I would agree that that's hyperbolic, but you don't have to play in that sandbox. Raise the discourse. If you don't see eye-to-eye with someone and the only way you can communicate is by making war, then this forum has lost its purpose. If someone hacks you off or if you think they're stupid? Disengage.

I apologize - I don't mean to mean to come off as patronizing. It's just that I like this place and I like the people here, and I'm tired of the lack of respect that's so easily thrown around on all sides. I've been doing online forums since 1983. I've been in situations that have been paradise (Compuserve, 1990-1994), and CHUD is as close as I've come to intelligent discussion online since then. I want this place to be better than the other places, and anger and flinging names doesn't advance that.

A decrepit old man sits on a curb, head in hands, as torn up pages of あずまんが大王 flit about in the sallow autumnal wind like a thousand leering semi-pornographic snowflakes. "Don't talk to me about fucking manga, Joey." he says to no one in particular. "Not today."