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Avatar post-release discussion - Page 11

post #501 of 2305
12/20/09 at 5:59am
Uhm...

Maybe it's because it's 3 AM, but...

...uhm?
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post #502 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Yeah, Prankster's right. It's a fucking glo-in-the-dark jungle and variations on monsters from STAR TREK and STAR WARS (prequels). I wish someone could explain to me how this is an immersive alien world, because it seems like a pretty standard set of bullshit to me.
I totally agree with this. The creature designs were pretty, but they never felt like something from an actual alien world like they were hyped up to be.
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post #503 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Tremaine View Post
The CGI in Jackson's Kong was spectacular as well; the story, not so much. I saw it in theaters and during its cable TV run. You definitely lose patience with the story and goofy characters when you shrink the flick down to TV size.
I don't know about the Avatar comparison with Kong. Avatar's story is simple but it flowed at a rapid pace making the movie feel shorter than it's length. King Kong's story felt overly bloated and dragged even on a first viewing. I want to see a longer Avatar director's cut, but I have absolutely no desire to see the longer King Kong cut. It would actually benefit from a streamlined edit.

King Kong's CGI was also a mixed bag from the very beginning. Great effects for Kong himself, but horrible in some scenes like the stampede that take you out of the movie.
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post #504 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
I totally agree with this. The creature designs were pretty, but they never felt like something from an actual alien world like they were hyped up to be.
I loved the designs, but except for the cool dragon things, no, not particularly alien. He's capable of it - his alien queen is still nasty and beautiful - but I think spending so much time watching actual freaky creatures at the bottom of the ocean floor maybe limited him to things he thought were, y'know, more "possible."

The other problem is this, and it's the problem with all big-budget films. No exec is gonna greenlight a $400 million dollar film unless they can understand it. (He's said as much in some of the interviews.) I can see it very easily at a development meeting:

"And here's what we call a bigathingadon."
"A what now?"
"It's like a rhino."
"A rhino?"
"Yeah."
"Rhinos are okay."
"And it's purple."
"Purple?"
"Yeah, purple."
"But still like a rhino."
"Uh-huh."
"Let's call Mattel."
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post #505 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimitriL View Post
I loved the designs, but except for the cool dragon things, no, not particularly alien. He's capable of it - his alien queen is still nasty and beautiful - but I think spending so much time watching actual freaky creatures at the bottom of the ocean floor maybe limited him to things he thought were, y'know, more "possible."
That was a Giger design.
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post #506 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahtheStud View Post
King Kong's story felt overly bloated and dragged even on a first viewing.
I'll say this much: my wife almost garroted me after Kong was over. She *HATED* the film like I'd never seen her hate a film. She still mocks it, and me for making her go.

She was afraid that Avatar was going to be the same-ish sort of thing, with the creatures and jungle and what not. But she pretty much floated out of the theater, and talked about the film off-and-on for hours after.
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post #507 of 2305
12/20/09 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
That was a Giger design.
The original was, certainly. But not the more insectoid queen version with the giant crest and multiple arms and snarling mouth. It was an artful variation.

(Not that I loved every design he did - I never cared for his version of the drone aliens with the exposed head crests.)
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post #508 of 2305
12/20/09 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
You should've offered to let them cut in front of you! You could've become the best of friends! Hehehe.

Sigourney Weaver's avatar always looked a little off to me. I think it's because she looked so much like Sigourney Weaver. I can't really say whether or not she was good or not. I was too distracted by the fact that I was watching Weaver in a Cameron movie. I have read a review that thought she was bad, but it seemed like the reviewer didn't like her in general.

My friend actually jokingly said just that. After all its PTA it was very weird seeing him not in the best IMAX seats.

I was also distracted by Weavers avatar but I thought her in real time was very good and likable. It was refreshing seeing her back with Cameron again.
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post #509 of 2305
12/20/09 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfan View Post
My friend actually jokingly said just that. After all its PTA it was very weird seeing him not in the best IMAX seats.

I was also distracted by Weavers avatar but I thought her in real time was very good and likable. It was refreshing seeing her back with Cameron again.
Yeah, her avatar seemed to have a totally human head. It was weird and distracting.


In Nunziata's review he claims this is what Phantom Menace should have been. Given that Cameron worked on the script and creature designs for about a decade and this was the best we got, Nick may have been more on the nose than he realized.
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post #510 of 2305
12/20/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Ross View Post
In Nunziata's review he claims this is what Phantom Menace should have been.
My thought was that it was what the battle of Endor should have been, in scope and premise if not in the actual execution, and with the Na'vi = Wookies. But hey, rock-slinging teddy bears works too.
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post #511 of 2305
12/20/09 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I am getting enough shit already so I may never post this on the front page but..

Yeah, Prankster's right. It's a fucking glo-in-the-dark jungle and variations on monsters from STAR TREK and STAR WARS (prequels). I wish someone could explain to me how this is an immersive alien world, because it seems like a pretty standard set of bullshit to me.
It's presentation and intent. It's the difference between George Lucas, Rick Berman needing a different locale to send their stories vs the planet itself *being* the story; between being told everything we need to know about a planet so we can get back to our characters vs the newcomers realizing a planet has mysteries we can't even fathom and that mystery, that curiosity being the thing that spurs our characters. The former situation doesn't need to be rendered nearly as lovingly or as detailed as the latter, because it's never the focus. With this film it is. It mostly comes down to whether a jungle environment with an aboriginal species is something you're actually interested in seeing more about to begin with.
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post #512 of 2305
12/20/09 at 11:19am
For me the immersion came from the technical side. The quality of the visuals and the presentation were so above what I've gotten used to have in theaters here, that I couldn't be unimpressed. If I was more used to proper digital projections and improved 3D I'm almost certain my opinion of Avatar would have been lower. The actual world building was kind of lacking actually.
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post #513 of 2305
12/20/09 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
If I was more used to proper digital projections and improved 3D I'm almost certain my opinion of Avatar would have been lower. The actual world building was kind of lacking actually.
This is part of why I'm a little worried about how this holds up over time, but considering the effort that went into this, the day when this level of technical artistry becomes old hat is years away. I'm willing to love it while it lasts.
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post #514 of 2305
12/20/09 at 12:58pm
I definately think we'll get an extended cut. I saw big scenes in some of the features that never made it. One of them an attack on the main base and the control room wher the windows where blown in and Cameron explained to the cast how they should imagine hundreds of stones being hurled at them.

Also in the scriptment they described this cool creature that detached its head when attacking something. This creature was also prominently featured in that pandorapedia and the art book that was released.
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post #515 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
People seem to think this movie needs to be the be-all, end-all. I saw it again with friends the other day and they loved it, a wide group of folks. It really does feel like the throughline of a lot of Cameron's stuff.

I still love it to death. I plan on doing a follow-up piece over the holidays.
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post #516 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:42pm
Saw this yesterday in the IMax 3d experience. I found myself taking the glasses off whenever something really pretty was on the screen just to be able to see the colors. Then I started wishing I was watching the movie without 3d. It almost feels like you are watching a television screen when you have those glasses on.

And really.. this movie is waaaaay to easy to shit on.. so the hatred being thrown around here is more annoying than anything. So for the super avatar haters.. we get it.. we can see how smart you guys are.. we understand the problems.. but who cares, enjoy yourselves.
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post #517 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylenol Jones View Post
And really.. this movie is waaaaay to easy to shit on.. so the hatred being thrown around here is more annoying than anything. So for the super avatar haters.. we get it.. we can see how smart you guys are.. we understand the problems.. but who cares, enjoy yourselves.
Oh, come on, man.
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post #518 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:54pm
Some people... just can't handle... when others have... criticisms about... a movie they liked. Tell your sister... you were riiiiiiiiiight.
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post #519 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:57pm
Gotta say that it's fascinating the range of opinions on this film. We're kind of all over the map on this, far beyond just I LOVE IT/I HATE IT.
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post #520 of 2305
12/20/09 at 1:58pm
I have to admit that I'm starting to wonder if Avatar, divorced from the fantastic presentation, can really hold up. Can the visuals and impeccable execution really make up for the flaws? I would like to see it again in IMAX just to be sure. Although I suspect as time goes on that I'll move closer to the Devin camp. Even if the perdonalities are cartoonish, at least Pixar tries to build the characters up. I had a very hard time keeping track of which Na'vi were important, so I spent too much time looking at their clothes or headgear instead of their behavior.
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post #521 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:20pm
Had a hard time telling which Na'Vi were important? Here's a clue: only four of them got names.
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post #522 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
The actual world building was kind of lacking actually.
As compared to what?
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post #523 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:32pm
Maybe compared to the amount of expectation built up for the world building and the FX it required to do so?

The environments were amazing. I was a little underwhelmed by the Pandoran wildlife though.
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post #524 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:34pm
I wish there were more than eight species on Pandora. Would've been cool if there had been stuff just wandering in the background in some shots with no explanation as to what they were exactly.
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post #525 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:36pm
Hahahah. Yeah, I kinda thought that too. Knowing Cameron, there probably were. But they were all varieties of insects that were out of focus in the background. Each with its own human/Na'vi/scientific nomenclature!!!
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post #526 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:42pm
Saw it too in 3D the problem with the glasses is that it distracts you from to see the background good enough of the movie, so you can't follow the movie good enough, This was the first time a saw a movie in 3D and i can say you that i was really not impressed at all by it.

3D is nice for short attractions like Marvel park in Uiversal studios Orlando the 3D was cool there in Spiderman.

But a Cinema is not a an attraction park So i'll see no future in 3D for the Cinema's, i think it's only an hype for Now.

I also think that's it's really not good for your health especially your eyes to see an 3 hour movie in 3D, a couple of times during the movie i had to took my glasses off and eventually got headaches during the movie, a day after the movie i had massive pain attacks in my head.

So i see no future in 3D Cinema's so i'll boycot it.

No 3D panasonic plasma screen in my house to hell with it.



by the way Avatar is a bigboxoffice failure

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avatar.htm
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post #527 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP-001 View Post
by the way Avatar is a bigboxoffice failure

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avatar.htm
....HUH?

You do realize that's after three days, right?
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post #528 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post
....HUH?

You do realize that's after three days, right?

yes but it gives you an impression for the future weeks, the first weekend for a movie is the most important so if i do some calculations i expect it will do less than King Kong in 2005.
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post #529 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP-001 View Post
yes but it gives you an impression for the future weeks, the first weekend for a movie is the most important so if i do some calculations i expect it will do less than King Kong in 2005.
And what calculations might they be?
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post #530 of 2305
12/20/09 at 2:56pm
Since you haven't figured out where the shift key and period buttons are or when to use them, you'll forgive me if I doubt your prognostication abilities.
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post #531 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:11pm
I heard the new Robocop will be in 3D.
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post #532 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:17pm
Why is no one talking about that terrible music? White person jungle drums with "exotic" sounding caterwalling voices all set to James Horner's most mediocre orchestrations yet. Why does any time "noble savages" appear in a Hollywood film we get the same recycled LION KING crap? Why not try coming up with something that actually sounds, you know, alien? I would have actually welcomed a more electronic score. What we got was bullshit cinematic shorthand designed play up emotion the film wasn't earning.
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post #533 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:17pm
Slater already summed up my feelings perfectly about those that didn't like the film and the reasons why. To all those that loved it, I'm not planning to take away your rush of euphoria anytime soon. The friend I went with described the film as "the best thing ever." I didn't want to rain on her parade, so I just smiled. So there's obviously something special in this film that's really clicking with people. It just didn't do it for me.
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post #534 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post
Had a hard time telling which Na'Vi were important? Here's a clue: only four of them got names.
And only four of them speak English.
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post #535 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP-001 View Post
yes but it gives you an impression for the future weeks, the first weekend for a movie is the most important so if i do some calculations i expect it will do less than King Kong in 2005.
For a nearly 3 hours long completely original property that isn't opening in a summer month, that $73m isn't bad at all. And word of mouth is actually fairly strong.

But thanks for playing.
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post #536 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
Why is no one talking about that terrible music? White person jungle drums with "exotic" sounding caterwalling voices all set to James Horner's most mediocre orchestrations yet. Why does any time "noble savages" appear in a Hollywood film we get the same recycled LION KING crap? Why not try coming up with something that actually sounds, you know, alien? I would have actually welcomed a more electronic score. What we got was bullshit cinematic shorthand designed play up emotion the film wasn't earning.
The music fit the rest of the film. Some Vangelis, otherworldly shit would have called too much attention to itself, given what the filmmakers were going for here.
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post #537 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slater View Post
Oh, fuck off, fanboy. Finding problems with the story and characters doesn't mean we're dead inside. It means we were paying attention.
This 'angry, I know more than the rest of you' attitude has GOTTEN FUCKING OLD. Some dont know how to engage in a true discussion. Too busy preaching to the masses why you're right all the time. It doesnt come off as anything but sad. Goddamn Internet.

Last thing: actually just liking a film does NOT make one a fanboy. Gezzus!
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post #538 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP-001 View Post
yes but it gives you an impression for the future weeks, the first weekend for a movie is the most important so if i do some calculations i expect it will do less than King Kong in 2005.
Not for a film released a week before Christmas. It's got back-to-back holiday weekends coming up as the only event film on the block. Take a look at its box office come January 11th before we pronounce it dead.
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post #539 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
Why is no one talking about that terrible music? White person jungle drums with "exotic" sounding caterwalling voices all set to James Horner's most mediocre orchestrations yet. Why does any time "noble savages" appear in a Hollywood film we get the same recycled LION KING crap? Why not try coming up with something that actually sounds, you know, alien? I would have actually welcomed a more electronic score. What we got was bullshit cinematic shorthand designed play up emotion the film wasn't earning.
Agreed that this isn't James Horner's finest hour or anything, but pretty much any time we hear the Na'Vi sing as a people is haunting, beautiful stuff. There's just not enough of it.
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post #540 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
The music fit the rest of the film. Some Vangelis, otherworldly shit would have called too much attention to itself, given what the filmmakers were going for here.
I totally disagree. I felt like whatever electronic piece they used for the second trailer was far more effective than what they went with. I wanted to be whisked away to a new world, not reminded by bullshit music cues how much this new world reflected ours.
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post #541 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:26pm
The music for the big speech and the gathering of the clans was pretty stirring as well.
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post #542 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:27pm
I got this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.T. View Post
This 'angry, I know more than the rest of you' attitude has GOTTEN FUCKING OLD. Some dont know how to engage in a true discussion. Too busy preaching to the masses why you're right all the time. It doesnt come off as anything but sad. Goddamn Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.T. View Post
...sorry some have died inside to the point where Avatar cannot be enjoyed.
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post #543 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
I totally disagree. I felt like whatever electronic piece they used for the second trailer was far more effective than what they went with. I wanted to be whisked away to a new world, not reminded by bullshit music cues how much this new world reflected ours.
I don't think the score was any good, I'm just not sure why we expected it to rise above the middle-of-the-road creative at work through the rest of the film.
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post #544 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post
I wish there were more than eight species on Pandora. Would've been cool if there had been stuff just wandering in the background in some shots with no explanation as to what they were exactly.
Or how about another intelligent species that doesn't get along with the Na'vi and has their own relationship with the humans. That way, the 2nd act wouldn't be so boring and predictable. Or the 3rd act for that matter.
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post #545 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
The music for the big speech and the gathering of the clans was pretty stirring as well.
And I could have rolled with those easy emotional cues if the score had been more adventurous on the whole.

I mean c'mon, for such an elaborate piece of world building you would think the music could have been a tad less pedestrian.
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post #546 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I don't think the score was any good, I'm just not sure why we expected fit to rise above the middle-of-the-road creative at work through the rest of the film.
Good point.
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post #547 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:34pm
The score did its job. I didn't walk out of the theater humming it, but it certainly didn't detract from the experience either. It was the typical workmanlike score Horner can do in his sleep. Could it have been more inspired? Sure, but I don't think it drags the film down.
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post #548 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:39pm
The only time I found the music actively intrusive was during the big air battle. Too triumphant, too early, cutting into what suspense there was.
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post #549 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
The score did its job. I didn't walk out of the theater humming it, but it certainly didn't detract from the experience either. It was the typical workmanlike score Horner can do in his sleep. Could it have been more inspired? Sure, but I don't think it drags the film down.
Seems to me that this is applicable to just about every aspect of Avatar except the CGI; everything just "did its job", which is why I'm becoming increasingly glacial towards the film as a whole.
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post #550 of 2305
12/20/09 at 3:41pm
I think the actors were more than adequate in almost every case. They committed to the piece, which, between that and the FX, elevated the story.
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