DUH-DUH, DUH DUH DUH - The Termiantor Franchise

Haven't seen Salvation, not really that interested. The Terminator for me remains the best in the franchise and IMHO Cameron's best film in his career. I like Judgment Day just fine but it's too much of a Hollywood Arnold action flick so it doesn't come close to the original IMO, that goes the same for Aliens. Rise of the Machines, I couldn't care less. Only saw the pilot of The Sarah Connor Chronicles, thought it was retarded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeV-DI09Q3w

I finally saw SALVATION the other night. It's a non-movie. It's not bad, not good. It just is. The minute it's over it evaporates from your brain.

I'm sure this got belabored to death in the post release thread, but how did Skynet know to use Kyle Reese as bait for John Conner? That makes no goddamn sense.

I liked TERMINATOR 3 better. It at least had some memorable scenes. While the action in SALVATION was decent, I highly doubt I'll ever have a reason to watch it again.

I'm in a strange place with these films, where I like the first one more and more, while continuing to lose interest in the second one. I'm pretty fond of the third one for its good parts too, but certainly not enamored with it. I thought Salvation was dreadfully boring, though I may netflix it some day here to give it a second shot.

I keep hearing that the second season of the series got pretty good, any truth to the rumor?

Edit to add: I have a musical virtuoso friend that plays the Terminator theme on pianos at parties as dramatically as possible. Everyone always thinks it's an original piece.

I think the only possible hope the franchise has is to give it to someone like Mark Romanek and let him go all out.

Other than that, the thing that surprised me with Terminator Salvation is really that I have absolutely no feelings of wanting to revisit any aspect of it after initial viewing. I kind of dug it in the theaters, and I'm the kind of guy that could rent or buy a film I hated because it had a few great set pieces, or nice visuals (or performances, music, etc). Yet for some reason the film has not in anyway compelled me to view it again.

I've always enjoyed the first two films in the series. They're immensely watchable for me, and I can find myself throwing them in the DVD player once a year or so. Rise of the Machines doesn't exactly work for me, but it's got a nice finale that puts the story in an interesting place. Judgment Day had an appropriate sense of finality to it: the war has been stopped and the future saved. But even by ending 3 with the rise of Skynet merely moved into the future, there's still a nice sense of everything coming together with John's first steps into becoming a leader.

Which brings us to Salvation. I enjoyed the setpieces in the first half of the film, particularly the chase with the big Harvester robot and that's about it. In my book that makes the film completely passable, but like everyone here, I doubt I'll revisit it much at all.

It's the second half of the film that brings it into murky, less-than-enjoyable territory simply by being so muddled. There's a good paragraph in the site's tag-team review of the movie where the point is made that this is a completely different future. Connor even makes mention of it on more than one occasion in the film. The delayed Judgment day works fine if you end the series there, but once you travel into it tying everything together is gonna be hard. Multiple theories start flying as to whether this is the same Kyle Reese who has to go back in time to start the loop or whether it even matters.

But while I always hope for good, solid time travel stories, my problem doesn't lie with the questionable mechanics/theories on display in the movie. The first two films got by without me questioning any of that too much simply because of the sheer charm they had. What depressed me most about Salvation was that it actually had me nitpicking instead of enjoying the film. And when you're nitpicking a movie's thoughts on time travel in a series whose very basis involves an evil super-computer's complete lack of strategy when it comes to time travel assassinations, you're just not going about it the right way.

The best way for this series to have gone was with a character like Marcus adventuring into the war. Connor and his crew would best be kept to the sideline (though young Kyle would definitely still work). Huge battles could abound and we just wouldn't have to think about the time travel. That stuff has passed with the first series. This could actually still happen with some new characters. Salvation essentially brings us right back to where it started as Marcus was pretty much a non-entity when it came to overall plot.

The difference between Salvation and Terminator 3 is that at least T3 had the balls to be somewhat of a game changer so that no matter how bad the film was (for what it's worth, I thought it was pretty good, apart from the useless villain) at least it justified its existence. Salvation does no such thing - it just comes off as a day in the life of future somber John Connor. I think we'd all have a different feeling about it if they'd gone with the original ending.

One thing that could have made these movies more thrilling was if they stuck to what Reese said, that the machines infiltrators and could easily blend in. At least more for the second movie. The T-1000 can transform into anything and it probably would have been more suspenseful had he constantly kept changing his appearance instead of sticking with Robert Patrick. Imagine a chase scene where at one point the heroes end up in a very crowded area and anyone could be the T1K. Heck Sarah might even shoot down a bystander just for looking at her. This was something they really could have used more often than we got.

My point is that they probably should have kept up with that infiltration aspect to keep the suspense level instead of say chasing John Connor with a fucking semi.

With my expectations set really low when going in, I really enjoyed Salvation, problems and all. I much prefer what we got onscreen to the idea that John Conner is killed long before sending Reese back to 1984. It makes the whole series feel like a lie. Still, Bale is pretty well useless, but I was really into Marcus and Reese's storylines, as well as all the callbacks to the previous films. I wouldn't mind seeing McG have a go at T5 with a better screenplay.

T1 is easily the best of the franchise, and, to date, Arnold and Cameron's best work. T2 is a fun action movie with standout performances from Patrick and Hamilton. T3, all in all, is pretty boring and forgettable, save for the terrific ending. Looking back at each film, the franchise is pretty solid has nothing to be really embarassed about, as it never came anywhere close to reaching the lows that Alien and Indiana Jones did.

I really like the first Terminator, it's got that hand made feel, that spark of ingenuity that comes with budgetary limitations, it's really cool. It's the only film in the franchise that I own on DVD, and it'll likely stay that way.

T2 was great for its time, but it no longer resonates with me in any substantial way except for a handful of cool set pieces. I never felt as if I needed to see John Connor, and this film didn't change my mind. I don't think it's bad at all, it just doesn't do for me now what it used to do when I was 12.

T3 is whatever. I've seen enough of it on HBO to recognize that I didn't miss anything when I passed on it during its theatrical run.

I still can't believe that people, even begrudingly, give Terminator Salvation a pass. Such a leaden, unfocused, and uninteresting piece of shit from start to finish. The submarine base scenes with Ironside and whoever the fuck that other guy was reminded me of the military monkey nuts from Zombie 3 ("Pure Science Fiction!"), just an abysmal experience; easily the worst film I saw in theaters this past summer.

I gave up on the SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES after the tepid pilot, so I don't know what ideas were explored on that show, but I never understood why Skynet only sent back one Terminator at a time and with such huge gaps between attempts. Surely, if they can send one to any time they want, they can send back several non-stop. They could literally send back armies of Terminators. In T1, Reese says that the Resistance smashed the device after he was sent back or whatever, but then how did the T-1000 and later T-800s come back for T2 and T3? I don't remember if this was ever addressed in the films. Did the show tackle this topic?

I enjoyed T2 as the thrill ride it is and have come to appreciate T3 a bit more after the abortion that was SALVATION but I honestly think the TERMINATOR concept works better as one movie. The more you define Skynet's plan, the more this concept falls apart.

Skynet sent the two Terminators to 1984 and 1994 at once in 2029, should one or the other fail. Reese didn't know the Resistance sent a T-800 to 1994 right after him. There was a cut scene (never filmed) from T2 showing this.

As for T3, they're on a new timeline now in the future and Arnold and the TX are from 2032. There's a couple different ways to put it together, but it's really not good enough of a movie to make it worth thinking about.

The Future War really ended up becoming like The Clone Wars didn't it? Much more exciting to imagine than to actually see done in a movie. I have utterly no interest in seeing more of these wars.

The first film's amazing. Jacknife nailed my feelings on T2, adding only that the T-1000 is still a fantastic villain. I'm still kind of a flag-waver for T3. It's certainly a bit too bloated for its own good at times, but the action is solid, and in terms of where it takes this series, it's got balls the size of church bells.

Salvation doesn't even register as part of this series for me.

I unabashedly love this franchise. T1 & T2 are still my faves. I like 3 and Salvation well enough, but don't feel the need to watch them over and over. I really dug the TV series and wish it hadn't been canceled. I would have no problem seeing another Terminator film, but one that actually focused on the war. I don't need to know anymore about John Connor.

Yes. The show picked up immensely in the latter half of Season 1 and then in 2. There were dozens of terminators sent by Skynet to go after numerous targets and to various eras (one ep followed a terminator that was mistakenly sent to the 1920's). There were also terminators sent back in time to prep for the future (gathering various items necessary for the war and protecting them in warehouses). The resistance also sent back multiple people, whose goals weren't necessarily to protect John. And without giving too much away, the series finale had a great reveal about a split between several factions of robots amongst Skynet's ranks, which informs us of the motivations behind a character we were introduced to earlier in the series.

Same here, Diva. Big fan of the TV series.

I am one of the few that liked the Catherine Weaver character. She really had an air of mystery to air that fit in well with the character.

The last few eps of Season 2 really were incredible pieces of work. Especially the off hand way they killed off a Major Cast member in the second to last episode of the series..

Yeah the movies set up John Connor as human kind's savior, but the show turns that on its head in its final eps. The idea of machines splintering and switching sides voluntarily is just awesome. I wish we had another season to explore that.

The way they killed off Derek took lots of balls. There's no slow mo, ominous sad music. No eulogies.

Sarah just rips his handphone off his corpse. So that they can't be traced.

Bwah?

I still want to see a Terminator that doesn't look like a hulking muscleman or creepy guy. Send back a Terminator that looks like Jonah Hill. That's infiltration.

You mean the T-X who looked like a supermodel and could adjust her bust size at will didn't blend in enough for you?

The major problems for T3 and TS were the lack of fear or dread throughout the films. The Terminator had it in spades, and T2 upped the "unstoppable" bad guy for a great action flick. T-3 always seemed laughable, and TS's big show-stopper is a brand spanking new Arnie, who pretty much can only spank, and not terminate. What a joke.

I've stated before: the best part of Salvation was the Conner-Terminator fight in the downed helicopter in the very beginning of the film. If you can bring the fear back to the Terminator franchise, you've bring back what made the movies work from the beginning.

The first two are classics, with the original being my favorite. T3 is a solid sequel for the most part, even though it mines much of the same territory. At least it moved the story forward and brought the whole "paradox" of stopping the future war (which was impossible) to light. TS is a decent sequel, albeit a hollow one. With a lot more character scenes, it could have been vastly improved, although still not perfect. The fact that they killed one of the only two characters I really cared about in the film didn't help either.

Very much agreed. You can thank Christian Bale for that though. Originally it was to be Connor on the sub, as the Resistance's "faceless" commander who gave out orders from a far. Marcus would have been the one doing everything. Upon Connor's death at the end, Marcus would "become" Connor with very few knowing any different since only his lieutenants had actually seen him. We would have followed through the two sequels with Sam Worthington as "John Connor". This was the original ending before Bale came aboard wanting to play Connor and have the part beefed up. After that came the various other endings (Good Marcus in Connor's skin, Evil Marcus in Connor's skin killing everyone, and the actual ending). Having Worthington Connor, young Reese, and the others fighting SkyNet through a trilogy of Future War films should have been the route taken.

Oh well. As for what will come of Terminator 5? It will happen and given the track record, it will probably follow the mold of TS. They will continue the plot, dropping a few slight references to what came before, just with a different cast. I just hope that if they bring any cast member back that it is Anton Yelchin. At this point this just need to make Kyle Reese the focus of the remaining sequels. Keep Connor as a supporting character, especially since there is little chance of Bale returning. Also, drop the "fighting the future battle in present day" plot that McG wants to do for the fifth film. We don't need another "Terminators running amok in our time" film. We've had three already. We want to explore the post-apocalypse world of the series now and fully envision what Cameron gave us glimpses of..............not retread the first three films yet again, just with more machines.

On a side note, what do you guys think about Cameron's abandoned initial idea of having Michael Biehn play the T-1000 in Terminator II?

That would have been great. I would have liked it if Robert Patrick played the T-1000 but having him turn into Biehn at some point for a while would have been great.

On a side side note, I would have liked to have seen Terminators regularly burying time capsules with information that Skynet would have dug up in the future (present?) and then use the information to refine every next attempt at sending another unit back in time.

Cameron apparently nixed it after thinking that it might confuse audiences too much, which is probably why he wrote two scenes for Kyle Reese instead. The first being the unfilmed "storming of SkyNet" future action sequence and the other being the dream sequence that was sliced out of the theatrical cut of the film.

Another almost for Biehn, unfortunately, like with Titanic (the Billy Zane role) and Avatar (Stephen Lang's role). Here's hoping Cameron tosses him into Battle Angel or The Dive (or maybe an Avatar sequel if that ever actually happens).

I'm a bit of Terminator franchise superfan (I've read and liked some of the extended universe stuff) but with every year I appreciate the first movie more and my love of T2 slowly diminishes.

I personally think the second season of Sarah Connor is both some of the best stuff in the Terminator franchise and some pretty decent science fiction.

My ranking of the franchise is:

T1>T2>Sarah Connor S2>T2 Infiltrator Novel Trilogy (It's a better T2 Sequel than T3 and it's Future War storyline kicks the crap out of T4's)>T4>T3: Terminator Dreams novel>T3

Is there any way to change the title of the thread. "Terminator" is spelt wrong and hence it could be missed by the search function, especially if the search is by thread title only.

I heard a similar thing about an earlier idea which was to have two T-800s come through time, both played by Arnold. One trying to kill John Connor and the other trying to protect him. Discarded because thought to be too confusing.

I think what would have been interesting in the TV series is if every terminator the resistance thought they'd reprogrammed was only because Skynet let them and then when they was a critical mass of them in all the key resistance locations, Skynet activates their super secret deep level programming and kills ... well lots of people.

It's a SAIRUS thread, where spelling is graded on a curve.

Not strange at all. The first one is a much better film.
T2 has plenty of good action scenes and it looks pretty, but as a movie it's all sloppy and shit. The original is a tight piece of storytelling.

T2 is anything but sloppy.

Well, I guess we will be finding out what in the world is going on with this franchise by mid-February. The rights deal is expected to close in January and once it does I doubt it will take long for whoever snags them to announce their plans.

Well, I took it upon myself to use part of my vacation to watch all 4 movies again. Thought I remembered that I liked T3 more than I actually did. Watched the first one on Blu-Ray, and it looked great. Probably still my favorite in the series. Also, watching the deleted scenes, I kind of wish they had a cut where they added those back in. For those that don't know, the deleted scenes cut out a major subplot for Reese and Sarah--they're going to blow up Cyberdyne. The factory that Sarah is found in at the end is Cyberdyne, as is shown when they back away from the ambulance that carries off her off at the end. You also see one of the Cyberdyne execs pocketing the microchip.

And speaking of deleted scenes, there is one from T3 that is great, but I'm glad they cut it out. The "Sgt. Candy" scene where you find out how all the initial Terminators end up looking and sounding like Ah-nuld is pretty funny.

Re-watching Salvation again after seeing it in the theater is interesting. Since there's no single "Terminator" chasing a central character in the film, it doesn't feel like the other films. I think it's like someone mentioned previously--there's no feeling of dread for any of the characters, because you don't know who the film is really focused on--John Connor or Marcus Wright. I also wish they'd have stuck with the original ending.

Never could get into the Sarah Connor chronicles, though. I may have to re-visit on DVD.

The original Terminator film is a near flawless B-movie. It just moves constantly & is a great blend of pulp Sci-Fi & Action, with a little bit of Horror thrown in. The plot is coherent & tight & none of the characters feel like they don't belong. & unlike Salvation, the romantic interlude is tied into the story, so it doesn't make your eyes roll.
I walked out of Salvation with an OK/So-so feeling about it, but the more I thought about it, the less I liked it. Never mind the stupid plot & unnecessary characters, the thing isn't even paced well in Action movie terms. The big set piece comes way too early on (that harvester/truck chase) & then whimpers towards the "climax".
Was tempted to rent the "Director's cut" to see if it fixes any problems - Has anybody here seen it to comment?

P.S. I wish the original Terminator didn't have that bit of text at the start, explaining the concept/world of the movie. Would've been great to just get into it without knowing what was going on with an unknown bodybuilder walking around naked in the streets & a normal guy falling onto the alleyway before running from the cops. It's unfortunate that the bit of text that opens the movie gives away the game.

I'm halfway through it. We started watching it late last night, and I had to turn it off to go to bed. Stopped it just before they test the "kill frequency" on the big Skynet machine in the valley. I haven't seen much different that I've noticed--the Moon Bloodgood topless scene seemed almost out of place, like he filmed it way later on, then stuck it in after the fact.

Watched the first film last night, still great as a whole, but Linda Hamilton kind of hobbles it a bit, funny considering in interviews before the film was released, she rather crassly expressed concerns about Arnold's acting prowess.

I think her mawkish line reading "So much pain..." kind of makes the still sort of jarring love scene an even harder sell. Maybe it's only jarring because I watched it on television for so long and up until maybe 13-14 years ago, forgot it was even there. Who knows.

Wow. I've never heard anybody complain about Linda Hamilton before. It's a great B movie performance. (don't get the "mawkish" charge) The character is supposed to be insecure, mousy, and vulnerable--she nails it. You witness a change over the course of the movie. The look on her face of melancholy and steely resolve in the final shot is perfect.

(also, the love scene iz hawt)

I suspect the problems with the movie are too deep to be corrected in an edit suite, but let me know how it jibes with you when you get a chance to finish your viewing.

As for Hamilton's line reading & the jarring/hawt love scene: I kinda tend to agree with the criticism. It is an awfully cheesy scene. The writing & acting is completely on the nose & the love scene is ridiculously cliched (slow-mo to fade-out!), but I'd argue that it's still pretty well done for a B-movie. & at least it's integral to the story & not just there for titilation/exploitation purposes.

How can T4 ever be fixed? The whole Skynet plot that drives everything doesn't make the least bit of sense.
What was Skynet's masterplan again?
To capture Kyle Reese and then to send a weird pseudo-Terminator to get John Connor to come over to rescue Reese so it could kill him at SkynetHQ? But instead of killing him with thousands of T-1s that should be guarding the HQ, Skynet uses a naked Anuhld to smack him around and not kill him?
The last act with Connor infiltrating Skynet HQ was complete weak sauce as is the copout that it was just one HQ out of many after it has been blown up.
The silly moto-terminator cable stunt and Transformers transport ship action didn't help either.

All that happens, there is an arc, and it all works, but I think it works almost despite itself. I've grown accustomed to the love scene, but I think I'll always feel that there could have been a better lead in.

The more I think about this franchise, the more it reminds me of Planet of the Apes - Films of various quality (some excellent, others terrible) existing within a closed time travel loop. It may be years but there will be another Terminator flick.

Well, I finished T:S finally, and to be honest, the Director's Cut didn't seem so different than the theatrical cut to me. I noticed a few extra things, but it didn't see much more than an additional 5 minutes or so.

It is about 5 minutes longer. We have yet to see the "rumored" actual director's cut that is supposedly half an hour longer than the theatrical version that McG talks about from time to time. Either he is bullshitting or they are saving that for a bigger edition.

The worst new scene is the T-100 appearing right behind our heroes with giant chain guns and they just turn around and shoot at it for like 10 seconds and it doesnt even fire at them.