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A question from a Firefly virgin

post #1 of 86
12/31/09 at 7:13pm
Thread Starter 
Please don't kill me if there's a billion Firefly threads like this out there in the ether somewhere, but I just got this box-set for Christmas and I'm LOVING IT like crazy so far. But I have a big question: why the hell did Fox air all of these episodes out of order? I'm looking at the dates that the episodes aired on the box, and they are all out of order. How anyone could understand what was happening and become a fan when all the episodes were jumbled like that is beyond me, but this thing is excellent so far.
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post #2 of 86
12/31/09 at 7:24pm
I imagine that more often than not that when things like this happen, it's because the station assumes that they know better than the creator; I can see no other reason for airing a continuity-dependent program out of sequence with what its creator intended. I know you're looking for a more concrete answer but that's what I've come to understand; maybe someone with a better knowledge of Firefly's short-lived TV run can help shine light on this.
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post #3 of 86
12/31/09 at 7:25pm
Fox hated the pilot so they made them do the Train Job as a new pilot. Fox wanted a more action oriented show right off the bat. They did the same with Dollhouse.

Can't remember why they messed with the rest.

But savor seeing Firefly(then Serenity) for the first time. It foes by way too quickly.
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post #4 of 86
12/31/09 at 7:45pm
And to try to cover, if you watched the show when FOX actually aired it, each episode began with this little voiceover by Mal that sort of laid out the basic gist of the show.
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post #5 of 86
1/2/10 at 11:26pm
Thread Starter 
The Chinese cussing isn't supposed to be subtitled, is it? They keep doing it and I see no words on the screen, so I'm just supposed to imagine what they're saying, I guess?

I've gotten through the first four episodes so far and if they are all this good, this could end up seriously being one of the best shows I've ever seen. Not a bad one in the bunch yet.
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post #6 of 86
1/2/10 at 11:30pm
No, the Chinese isn't supposed to be subtitled, and it's not always cursing -- "dong ma?" is "okay?" or "get me?", I forget which. The reasoning is that in the history of the show, Chinese-Anglo relations became so intertwined that even the average joe, the working class guy, knows Chinese. Or it's similar to the way Yiddish, Spanish, and even French/Italian words and phrases have become incorporated into common English usage in the United States.
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post #7 of 86
1/2/10 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 
Okay, thanks!
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post #8 of 86
1/3/10 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
No, the Chinese isn't supposed to be subtitled, and it's not always cursing -- "dong ma?" is "okay?" or "get me?", I forget which. The reasoning is that in the history of the show, Chinese-Anglo relations became so intertwined that even the average joe, the working class guy, knows Chinese. Or it's similar to the way Yiddish, Spanish, and even French/Italian words and phrases have become incorporated into common English usage in the United States.
It means understand, but more idiomatically.

Heh, Chinese is that prevalant, but there aren't any Asian characters on the show.
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post #9 of 86
1/3/10 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post
Fox hated the pilot so they made them do the Train Job as a new pilot. Fox wanted a more action oriented show right off the bat. They did the same with Dollhouse.

Can't remember why they messed with the rest.
A lot of the broadcast reshuffling is explained in the episode commentaries, which I recommend you watch after you finish the series*. To sum up, Fox didn't expect Whedon & co to deliver a literal "space Western", and gave preference to episodes that were heavier on action and hardware than on atmosphere.

P.S. Here's a link to the Firefly/Serenity Chinese Pinyinary.

*If you're like me, the withdrawal will be so severe you'll re-watch everything in French and Spanish too...
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post #10 of 86
1/4/10 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 View Post

I've gotten through the first four episodes so far and if they are all this good, this could end up seriously being one of the best shows I've ever seen. Not a bad one in the bunch yet.
Pretty much true. What this show might have become if it had been given the time to grow and develop that Buffy and Angel had is... well, simultaneously mind-boggling and depressing: its first season is far more settled in and accomplished than that of either of its predecessors.
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post #11 of 86
1/4/10 at 2:52pm
The fact that Fox axed the show still pisses me off. But I guess I'm kind of to blame, I never watched the show until I caught a marathon on the Sci-Fi channel...Which after the 3rd episode I turned it off, went to Best Buy and bought the box set.
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post #12 of 86
1/4/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
It means understand, but more idiomatically.

Heh, Chinese is that prevalant, but there aren't any Asian characters on the show.
This always puzzled me. Why no memorable asians at all really, not even as background or minor characters?
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post #13 of 86
1/4/10 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
This always puzzled me. Why no memorable asians at all really, not even as background or minor characters?
There's no good answer for this, although I'm sure there's a fan-wank explanation. It's one of the failings of the show, which was good, but far from perfect.
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post #14 of 86
1/4/10 at 9:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hill View Post
There's no good answer for this, although I'm sure there's a fan-wank explanation. It's one of the failings of the show, which was good, but far from perfect.
I like to think it would have been noticed and corrected if the show would have made it past a half a season.

I'm not sure there will ever be a time when I don't get a little depressed when I think about FIREFLY dying far too soon.
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post #15 of 86
1/5/10 at 5:06pm
Evidently not in time for Serenity.
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post #16 of 86
1/5/10 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hill View Post
It's one of the failings of the show, which was good, but far from perfect.
On the plus side, it makes the "Nobody's Asian in the Movies" song on Commentary! The Musical a little funnier.
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post #17 of 86
1/6/10 at 3:36am
America gets confused when their female Asian news anchors suddenly start appearing on other TV shows and aren't always female.
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post #18 of 86
1/8/10 at 12:10am
Yeah, I just got into watching the whole series myself (saw the movie first), and it's terrific stuff: great Whedonian humor, astonishingly subtle and nuanced characterization, one of the best TV ensembles ever assembled, and plenty of fun action. One could say that about some of Whedon's other shows, but I'm not sure his style has been epitomized so well before or since.

Question for fellow Whedon fans: should I give Dollhouse a try? I really like the premise, the cast looks great, and the idea of Alan Tudyk playing against type as a psychotic villain is really appealing (when does he show up, incidentally?). Also, if I do give it a try, should I watch "Epitaph One" before or after watching Season 2?
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post #19 of 86
1/8/10 at 12:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
Yeah, I just got into watching the whole series myself (saw the movie first), and it's terrific stuff: great Whedonian humor, astonishingly subtle and nuanced characterization, one of the best TV ensembles ever assembled, and plenty of fun action. One could say that about some of Whedon's other shows, but I'm not sure his style has been epitomized so well before or since.

Question for fellow Whedon fans: should I give Dollhouse a try? I really like the premise, the cast looks great, and the idea of Alan Tudyk playing against type as a psychotic villain is really appealing (when does he show up, incidentally?). Also, if I do give it a try, should I watch "Epitaph One" before or after watching Season 2?
Dollhouse gets really good in season 2, like every other Whedon show. Epitaph One and the un-aired pilot on the DVD are a must-watch.
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post #20 of 86
1/8/10 at 12:29am
"Epitaph One" should be watched as the Season 1 finale. Season 2 will end, appropriately, with "Epitaph Two".
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post #21 of 86
1/8/10 at 11:06am
Thanks you two, although I've heard Dollhouse starts getting better in Season 1 with Episode 6; is this accurate? I still plan to watch all of the first season anyway.
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post #22 of 86
1/8/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Evidently not in time for Serenity.
Actually, I think there are some Asians kids in the flashback scenes at River's school. I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
Thanks you two, although I've heard Dollhouse starts getting better in Season 1 with Episode 6; is this accurate? I still plan to watch all of the first season anyway.
Just watch the whole thing. It's just two short seasons. And, yes, you'll have to suffer through some clunkers in the first half of season one, but it'll be more than worth it by the time you get to the good stuff. (Which does indeed start coming around episode six or seven.)

Tudyk's character appears in shadows and is whispered about from the very first episode, but Tudyk doesn't actually appear until near the end of season one.
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post #23 of 86
1/8/10 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak chase View Post
Just watch the whole thing. It's just two short seasons. And, yes, you'll have to suffer through some clunkers in the first half of season one, but it'll be more than worth it by the time you get to the good stuff. (Which does indeed start coming around episode six or seven.)

Tudyk's character appears in shadows and is whispered about from the very first episode, but Tudyk doesn't actually appear until near the end of season one.
Thanks again, and I did plan on watching the whole thing regardless. I take it Tudyk becomes more of a major player in Season 2, then? I ask only because Tudyk's one of my favorites, and I've heard his character is quite a nasty piece of work in Dollhouse, which sounds like a great opportunity for him to stretch his range.
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post #24 of 86
1/8/10 at 4:01pm
I wouldn't say 'major player'. The show demystifies him pretty quickly but he's still fun to watch.
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post #25 of 86
1/8/10 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I wouldn't say 'major player'. The show demystifies him pretty quickly but he's still fun to watch.
Ah. Still, it's always nice to see Tudyk in any kind of production (he remains the best thing about I, Robot), so I look forward to "meeting" his character.

One last question: I plan to start watching Angel from the beginning soon since I've heard it's both great and possibly better/more consistent than Buffy. Are there any episodes or even seasons that I should skip?
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post #26 of 86
1/8/10 at 4:25pm
Nah. Season 1 is ok, if a bit shaky, but it's much more solid in season 2. It's better than Buffy.
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post #27 of 86
1/8/10 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Nah. Season 1 is ok, if a bit shaky, but it's much more solid in season 2. It's better than Buffy.
Good to know. I just can't wait to get to Season 5 and "Smile Time". Also, watching Lorne's scenes is going to be kind of weird now that his actor's dead (same goes for Doyle).
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post #28 of 86
1/8/10 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
One last question: I plan to start watching Angel from the beginning soon since I've heard it's both great and possibly better/more consistent than Buffy. Are there any episodes or even seasons that I should skip?
If you have the time to spare, you might experiment with alternating Buffy S4 and Angel S1, a la the original broadcasts. There are some fun crossover moments.
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post #29 of 86
1/8/10 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Nah. Season 1 is ok, if a bit shaky, but it's much more solid in season 2. It's better than Buffy.
Not sure I'd go quite that far, but it does have the advantage of starting off with much of the spadework of character and world-building already done, so it's a bit denser from the get-go.
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post #30 of 86
1/8/10 at 5:27pm
Season one of Angel is almost as bad as season one of Dollhouse. Seriously. And like Dollhouse, it improves tremendously in the last six or seven episodes. The writers had no idea what they were doing until Faith came on board.

It's a Whedon show, so it's still surprising and entertaining on a superficial level, but you could skip huge chunks of it and not miss much. In particular, Buffy's first crossover appearance, the one about cop sensitivity training GONE MAD, and the one with the dude who can detach his body parts are utter wastes of time. I guess you need to watch it for the sake of later continuity, but be assured it improves VASTLY.

It is fun to see a ridiculously young Josh Holloway become Angel's first dusted vampire on his own show, though.

Angel's a waaaaay more uneven show than Buffy. It can be amazing, but it can also be a trainwreck at times. The fourth season is also a bit of a mess.
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post #31 of 86
1/8/10 at 5:29pm
Yeah, but his team is more entertaining. Adding Spike was also great.

The real treats were Wesley and Lindsey.
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post #32 of 86
1/8/10 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
If you have the time to spare, you might experiment with alternating Buffy S4 and Angel S1, a la the original broadcasts. There are some fun crossover moments.
So I've heard, but I burned out on Buffy after Season 3 (I do eventually plan to revisit it), and I tend to stick with one show at a time. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Going back to Firefly: I've always felt Sean Maher doesn't get enough credit for his performance as Simon. Sure, he's the straight man in many cases, but Maher has a very dry, deadpan tone that can be incredibly funny (a good chunk of "Jaynestown", most of his interactions with Jubal Early in "Objects In Space"), and he does do a very good straight man. Anyone else agree?
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post #33 of 86
1/9/10 at 4:32am
Maher's good and all, but ever since I found out he auditioned, I can't help but think how much Neil Patrick Harris would have killed as Simon. Of course, the odds are very good that if he got Firefly, he wouldn't get How I Met Your MOther.
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post #34 of 86
1/9/10 at 5:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
Season one of Angel is almost as bad as season one of Dollhouse. Seriously. And like Dollhouse, it improves tremendously in the last six or seven episodes. The writers had no idea what they were doing until Faith came on board.

It's a Whedon show, so it's still surprising and entertaining on a superficial level, but you could skip huge chunks of it and not miss much. In particular, Buffy's first crossover appearance, the one about cop sensitivity training GONE MAD, and the one with the dude who can detach his body parts are utter wastes of time. I guess you need to watch it for the sake of later continuity, but be assured it improves VASTLY.

It is fun to see a ridiculously young Josh Holloway become Angel's first dusted vampire on his own show, though.

Angel's a waaaaay more uneven show than Buffy. It can be amazing, but it can also be a trainwreck at times. The fourth season is also a bit of a mess.
Wrong. Angel season 1 is weak, but it has some really funny or good stuff in it and a fantastic pilot.
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post #35 of 86
1/9/10 at 4:24pm
It has some good or funny stuff in it, yes. Narratively, it's a huge mess, and their ideas for villains are terrible. Terrible. And I like standalone episodes of Buffy.

If we're looking at it compared to a lot of shows, of course it's still fun, but compared to Whedon's other TV work it's WAAAAAAY at the bottom of the list. Only the first season of Dollhouse is lower in my book. Even the final season of Buffy is better.

Dollhouse has been following the Angel template o' quality pretty closely. By that logic, these final episodes of Dollhouse should see them transported to a magical alternate dimension for a goofy storyline that has nothing to do with the rest of the season. And Amy Acker should show up.
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post #36 of 86
1/9/10 at 5:30pm
Any thoughts on Dr. Horrible? I love it myself, and currently have the DVD at the top of the queue so I can listen to "Commentary-The Musical!", which sounds brilliant.
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post #37 of 86
1/9/10 at 6:27pm
I haven't heard the commentary, but I though Dr. Horrible was great. I caught up with Firefly on DVD and watched Serenity after. I've never seen an episode of Buffy or any of the spin offs.
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post #38 of 86
1/9/10 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
Any thoughts on Dr. Horrible? I love it myself, and currently have the DVD at the top of the queue so I can listen to "Commentary-The Musical!", which sounds brilliant.
It's technically well-made. But, on a personal level, it feels too much like a nerd who got beat up in high school by jocks whining about how people don't understand him. It's well-worn material for Whedon.

It also comes close to being Columbine, if Klebold or Harris were supervillain-esque geniuses and ironically less competent. It also had weird character development for something that only last about an hour.

There's also a comic book, which kinda made me sick of the whole thing.
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post #39 of 86
1/9/10 at 11:09pm
For a low-budget side project, Dr Horrible's a lot of fun, and Fillion's great in what will probably be his last hurrah for that kind of looniness (I don't in any way begrudge him the success of Castle-- he's paid his dues-- but there was a time that I thought he had a shot at a Ford/Willis type career as an action hero with a touch of wit about him, but somehow I don't see that happening anymore).

And, yes, by all means don't miss the commentary.
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post #40 of 86
1/9/10 at 11:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
For a low-budget side project, Dr Horrible's a lot of fun, and Fillion's great in what will probably be his last hurrah for that kind of looniness (I don't in any way begrudge him the success of Castle-- he's paid his dues-- but there was a time that I thought he had a shot at a Ford/Willis type career as an action hero with a touch of wit about him, but somehow I don't see that happening anymore).

And, yes, by all means don't miss the commentary.
Fillion's certainly the secret weapon of DH; he's terrific at Captain Hammer's total jackassery, but also incredibly funny like he always is. Still, Neil Patrick Harris combined with those songs is godly (the songs really do kick a lot of ass, especially "Brand New Day" and "Slipping"). And Felicia Day is unbelievably cute (I've heard she pops up in Dollhouse's "Epitaph One", so looking forward to that).

Isn't there a non-musical commentary on the Dr. Horrible disc as well, and is it any good?
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post #41 of 86
1/10/10 at 1:33am
The straight commentary is, as per all Whedon tracks, extremely informative and entertaining.
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post #42 of 86
1/10/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
A lot of the broadcast reshuffling is explained in the episode commentaries, which I recommend you watch after you finish the series
I'm glad you mentioned these. I never listen to commentaries, but I checked out two of them, Serenity(the pilot, not theatrical version) and War Stories, both were very entertaining. It was great to have an excuse to put on the discs again, I've watched them too many times now and need to give them a break for a few years.
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post #43 of 86
1/10/10 at 7:04am
Whedon's track on Objects In Space is especially astounding.
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post #44 of 86
1/10/10 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb View Post
For a low-budget side project, Dr Horrible's a lot of fun, and Fillion's great in what will probably be his last hurrah for that kind of looniness (I don't in any way begrudge him the success of Castle-- he's paid his dues-- but there was a time that I thought he had a shot at a Ford/Willis type career as an action hero with a touch of wit about him, but somehow I don't see that happening anymore).
Much as I don't want him becoming the new Bruce Campbell for these sorts of things, there's a piece of my heart really hoping he's at the top of the list when they get around to casting an Uncharted movie.
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post #45 of 86
1/10/10 at 6:10pm
OK, now I have a couple of questions about Whedon's comic book work:
1. Are the Serenity/Firefly comics any good?
2. How's his work on Runaways? I love the hell out of Brian K. Vaughan's initial run on that series, so I was wondering if I should continue reading it when Whedon and then Terry Moore take over. I have read some of Whedon's comic work (Fray, Astonishing X-Men Volumes 1 and 2), so I know what to expect, but what do the fine folks here at CHUD think?
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post #46 of 86
1/10/10 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Whedon's track on Objects In Space is especially astounding.
Well I'm going to put that on right now then.
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post #47 of 86
1/10/10 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
How's his work on Runaways? I love the hell out of Brian K. Vaughan's initial run on that series, so I was wondering if I should continue reading it when Whedon and then Terry Moore take over.
I liked the Runaways arc, though I was reading it for Whedon and hadn't followed the title until then. It's got neat ideas but the narrative is very compressed. P.S. Vaughan's Faith story on Buffy Season 8 is excellent.

Speaking of the Buffy comic, it started strong (perhaps peaking with a great Fray crossover) but hit a gloomy rough patch recently. They've been trying to reconcile the Buffyverse with the current "Vampires are totally dreamy" trend, with mixed results.
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post #48 of 86
1/10/10 at 7:53pm
I loved Whedon's Runaways : it's the rare time-travel story that doesn't get bogged down in paradoxes, and the art by Michael Ryan is glorious. It's definitely worth picking up in trade.

I didn't care for Moore's first couple of issues (which surprised me, since I loved his take on Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane), and haven't gone back to see if it's improved since he left.
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post #49 of 86
1/12/10 at 2:14am
Thread Starter 
I've been watching episodes all day long. I knew I was infatuated with this show during the pilot when Mal tells Simon that Kaylee's dead when she isn't (that scene where they all stand around laughing their heads off KILLED me). I knew I was officially into it when Mal kicked the guy into the engine, but holy shit I am officially madly in love with this show now that I've gotten to disc 3 of the box set. Just when I thought these episodes had to start getting bad sometime ("Our Mrs. Reynolds" and "Jaynestown" were outstanding, in my view) they actually get better. "Out of Gas" was genuinely touching. I especially loved how Mal and Kaylee met, and that shot at the end of Mal looking at Serenity for the first time honestly made me go "aww". "Aww" for a ship as if it's a human being. Unreal. It actually took me a second viewing to catch that Wash is giving his blood to Mal at the end when he says "you've got a thing in your arm". That was realy touching that Mal's laying there with a hole in his stomach and the first thing that he can think to say to Wash is "Are you okay? You've got a thing in your arm." And the end of "Ariel"...I could rave about this episode for ages. I've been waiting on them to finally pull the trigger on Jayne being a turncoat, and when he ended up unwittingy saving the day, I thought that the show would leave it there, would leave it with Jayne having to hide what he'd done and basically getting away with it. Mal hitting him with the wrench made me jump, and I truly believed that Mal was going to let Jayne die. I don't think he's ever been that furious, and when he said "when you turn on my crew, you turn on me. You did it to ME!", it was some of Nathan's best work on the show. The look of pure fury on his face was something else. You can really feel the affection that these people have for each other. Most shows force this sort of camaraderie down your throat and it feels like a bunch of people standing around pretending to like each other, but it's so believable here.

I've got four episodes to go, and I'm torn between excitement to see what's next and absolute sadness to see it end. Most shows take years to get me to love them so much. This show got me in mere hours. Way to go, Joss!
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post #50 of 86
1/12/10 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
OK, now I have a couple of questions about Whedon's comic book work:
1. Are the Serenity/Firefly comics any good?
Sadly, no. I don't know why, but they're all written by this guy named Brett Matthews who doesn't seem to have much talent, and they tend to be about as generic as you can imagine.

Although oddly, I've heard a rumour that Patton Oswalt, of all people, has been writing a Firefly comic.
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