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"Scientists say dolphins should be treated as non-human persons" - Times Online - Page 2

post #51 of 331
1/6/10 at 6:55pm
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............
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post #52 of 331
1/6/10 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
I'd just like to take a step back for one moment and say, "Wow!" I am a meat eater. I'd probably eat steak 4 or 5 times a week if given a choice. That being said, I have never looked at some animal and said to myself, "Hmmmm, I think I'd really like to take a bite out of that." Therefore, I find the fact that the Princess has apparently done this with dolphins fascinating. What makes them look so potentially delicious? Has she ever looked at another animal--say, a wombat--and said, "Hmmm, I suspect that's some good eatin' right there."

So weird.

And, lest we think I'm picking on PK, I'll say it again: Princess, you're too precious for this world. Never change.
I guess for me, it's a combination of factors that makes dolphins appear so appetizing. For one, it's their shape. It looks like you could effortlessly slice out giant dolphin steaks from that long elegant form. Also, they're sleek and gray, a very tasty look for fish. (I know, they're mammals). They look kind of like Super Salmon, or something. And finally, I guess it's the whole taboo nature of eating a dolphin. Growing up, "Dolphin safe" tuna * propaganda was virtually inescapable, as was dolphin imagery on posters, T-shirts, etc. So there is something deliciously decadent about the idea of purposely eating one. Dolphin Sushi to my mind is kind of the seafood equivalent of those 5000$ gold leaf ice cream sundays.


And to answer your last question, no, there is really no other animal that I've ever looked at and felt a special urge to eat.


* Which many argue is actually worse for the ocean



PS: Who can argue with this image?
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post #53 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
I'm just wondering if the Japanese are aware of the results of these studies. I'd be interested to hear what they have to say about it what with all the butchering.
They don't care. They don't comply with with world don't-hunt-whales policies. Also, just because they are really intelligent doesn't mean they are "non-human persons" (so, what, we give them the right to vote and a fair trial?) and all animals should be provided with the most humane environment possible (including appropriate mental stimulus). It's not great to keep dolphins or apes in confinement, but it's also generally a bad idea to keep psitticines confined, too, along with not providing amusement for your Border Collie (which is likely much less intelligent than the psitticine or the dolphin).
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post #54 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belethedheliel View Post
They don't care. They don't comply with with world don't-hunt-whales policies. Also, just because they are really intelligent doesn't mean they are "non-human persons" (so, what, we give them the right to vote and a fair trial?) and all animals should be provided with the most humane environment possible (including appropriate mental stimulus). It's not great to keep dolphins or apes in confinement, but it's also generally a bad idea to keep psitticines confined, too, along with not providing amusement for your Border Collie (which is likely much less intelligent than the psitticine or the dolphin).
I think the concept of personhood they were talking about had more to do with sentience and self awareness than making them subject to our laws.

And I totally agree, like I said before the ability to suffer is a lot more important to take into consideration than intelligence. If a creature can feel pain and fear that should be the only reason you need to treat it with compassion rather than cruelty.
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post #55 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
And I totally agree, like I said before the ability to suffer is a lot more important to take into consideration than intelligence. If a creature can feel pain and fear that should be the only reason you need to treat it with compassion rather than cruelty.
See, I don't get this. Why can't you kill creatures that are capable of suffering as long as you do it relatively painlessly?
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post #56 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
See, I don't get this. Why can't you kill creatures that are capable of suffering as long as you do it relatively painlessly?
Why can't I kill you as long as I do it 'relatively' painlessly? There are plenty of other humans in the world, it's not like the species is in danger of extinction.
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post #57 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:44pm
Yeah I don't think anyone is suggesting that we hold foist human law onto Dolphins as such or make them vote (that's a really weird thing for you to say, Beleth), which is a retarded idea, just that we shouldn't eat a species with such a rich, complicated and nuanced intelligence. I used to go and help the Marine Land park in Adelaide nurse sick and injured Dolphins back to health and it's painfully clear that posses intelligence far more sophisticated than, say, Princess Kate for example.
Australia is in the middle of an escalating battle with the Japanese about this issue (Whaling, specifically) and it's getting ridiculous.
The idea of even wanting to consume Whale/Dolphin or anything with demonstrable intelligence or empathy is personally nauseating to me, but I understand why people are reluctant to give up the whole meat eating lifestyle and culture, what with pork tasting so delicious and all.
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post #58 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
Why can't I kill you as long as I do it 'relatively' painlessly? There are plenty of other humans in the world, it's not like the species is in danger of extinction.
In fact we are currently experiencing both a population explosion and world wide food shortage. Solution to one problem seems to be the solution to the other, ultimately.
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post #59 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
Why can't I kill you as long as I do it 'relatively' painlessly? There are plenty of other humans in the world, it's not like the species is in danger of extinction.
That takes some of the pleasure out of it.
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post #60 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
In fact we are currently experiencing both a population explosion and world wide food shortage. Solution to one problem seems to be the solution to the other, ultimately.
You're half right here. We actually make more than enough food to feed every man, woman, and child on the planet, what keeps hunger an active phenomenon in the world is greed and political corruption that is rooted in greed.
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post #61 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
Why can't I kill you as long as I do it 'relatively' painlessly? There are plenty of other humans in the world, it's not like the species is in danger of extinction.
Once again you are drawing comparisons between killing people and killing marine mammals. This is where I lose you. I'm against cruelty, but for meat eating. That's just where I stand.
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post #62 of 331
1/6/10 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
The idea of even wanting to consume Whale/Dolphin or anything with demonstrable intelligence or empathy is personally nauseating to me, but I understand why people are reluctant to give up the whole meat eating lifestyle and culture, what with pork tasting so delicious and all.
You may have missed it, but I said I'd prefer to eat one caught accidentally. Also, it's not like I'm in a giant rush to make it happen.

And, if dolphins are so intelligent that I should feel bad about eating them, shouldn't they be intelligent enough not to go around acting cruelly to other dolphins? If they were pure and saintly I might feel a twinge of guilt for my desire to eat one, but as it is, they're not exactly the nicest animals under the sun. In fact, I'd think the fact they are so intelligent would make their actions even worse, since you'd think they would know better.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd never eat a whale. That's just awful, most of them are endangered anyways.
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post #63 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
You may have missed it, but I said I'd prefer to eat one caught accidentally. Also, it's not like I'm in a giant rush to make it happen.

And, if dolphins are so intelligent that I should feel bad about eating them, shouldn't they be intelligent enough not to go around acting cruelly to other dolphins? If they were pure and saintly I might feel a twinge of guilt for my desire to eat one, but as it is, they're not exactly the nicest animals under the sun. In fact, I'd think the fact they are so intelligent would make their actions even worse, since you'd think they would know better.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd never eat a whale. That's just awful, most of them are endangered anyways.
Yes, as opposed to us humans who are the MOST intelligent creatures on the planet. We are so highly advanced that we have learned to avoid things like rape, theft, murder, torture, war, genocide because....

Oh wait.
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post #64 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Once again you are drawing comparisons between killing people and killing marine mammals. This is where I lose you. I'm against cruelty, but for meat eating. That's just where I stand.
I'm drawing the comparison because a dolphin, like you, has a strong will to live and the ability to think and feel emotions. They don't want to die any more than you do so killing one just for the sake of satisfying your taste buds is pretty not cool.

Just because you have the POWER to be a tyrant doesn't automatically mean you have the right to be one.
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post #65 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
Yes, as opposed to us humans who are the MOST intelligent creatures on the planet. We are so highly advanced that we have learned to avoid things like rape, theft, murder, torture, war, genocide because....

Oh wait.
All good points, but it doesn't make Harry Knowels look any more appetizing just because I know bad stuff goes on in Darfur.
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post #66 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:17pm
Werewolf Girl: you are literally wasting your time arguing this point with the Princess. She invalidates each and every post she makes with the one the one that subsequently follows it.

Also: I insulted Cuchulain awhile ago in a thread and wanted to apologize to the dude...I got you confused with another poster because of your avatar. Meant no disrespect.
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post #67 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
Also: I insulted Cuchulain awhile ago in a thread and wanted to apologize to the dude...I got you confused with another poster because of your avatar. Meant no disrespect.
No worries, it happens. But thanks, I appreciate the gesture.
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post #68 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
All good points, but it doesn't make Harry Knowels look any more appetizing just because I know bad stuff goes on in Darfur.
But why not? Harry Knowles is at a perfect slaughter weight.
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post #69 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
Werewolf Girl: you are literally wasting your time arguing this point with the Princess. She invalidates each and every post she makes with the one the one that subsequently follows it.
I'm very amused right now, so time well wasted.
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post #70 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
Werewolf Girl: you are literally wasting your time arguing this point with the Princess. She invalidates each and every post she makes with the one the one that subsequently follows it.

Also: I insulted Cuchulain awhile ago in a thread and wanted to apologize to the dude...I got you confused with another poster because of your avatar. Meant no disrespect.
She's not wasting her time. I think she and I agree about the basic facts. I am against cruelty to animals.

I just think on the issue of dolphins, she will not convince me.
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post #71 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:33pm
Wearwolf Girl:

No hard feelings on the Dolphin issue. I actually care alot about animals and even wrote about dolphin extinction on my blog back in September or so

Here is that post, I hope it shows that you and I actually are of one mind on this, for the most part
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post #72 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
She's not wasting her time. I think she and I agree about the basic facts. I am against cruelty to animals.

I just think on the issue of dolphins, she will not convince me.
This is what I mean when I say you essentially invalidate your own posts and arguments.
I shall now take my own advice. Have an excellent day, Kate!
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post #73 of 331
1/6/10 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
This is what I mean when I say you essentially invalidate your own posts and arguments.
I shall now take my own advice. Have an excellent day, Kate!
OK, you too OCallaghan. I'm sorry we couldn't reach an understanding on this issue, but I had an interesting time discussing it all the same. Have a nice night!
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post #74 of 331
1/6/10 at 11:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Wearwolf Girl:

No hard feelings on the Dolphin issue. I actually care alot about animals and even wrote about dolphin extinction on my blog back in September or so

Here is that post, I hope it shows that you and I actually are of one mind on this, for the most part
Well, we both agree on not wanting dolphins to go extinct, we do agree on that.
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post #75 of 331
1/7/10 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
She's not wasting her time. I think she and I agree about the basic facts. I am against cruelty to animals.

I just think on the issue of dolphins, she will not convince me.
On the ideas you may (somewhat) agree, but when it comes to doing anything about it, you two are miles apart. Question is: which is more important?
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post #76 of 331
1/7/10 at 2:57pm
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Originally Posted by Ryan Bean View Post
On the ideas you may (somewhat) agree, but when it comes to doing anything about it, you two are miles apart. Question is: which is more important?
I am quite the evangelist when it comes to informing people about extinction. Heck, my avatar is an extinct () frog. I like to think I do alot of good and raise awareness.

But you'd have to ask a marine biologist as to whether or not WG or I is better on this issue.
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post #77 of 331
1/7/10 at 3:30pm
I'm not talking about dolphins going extinct. But technically, since you want to eat one and WG doesn't, she's got you beat on that too.
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post #78 of 331
1/7/10 at 7:28pm
I think dolphins should totally be allowed to live without us getting in their face, but first chance I had to eat one YOU BET i'd take it.
NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM.
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post #79 of 331
1/7/10 at 10:30pm
Oh Matt, never change.

I'm not going to even get into Kates mind-numbing ramblings, but I have this rather wierd contradictory dichotomy of really loving animals, but also really loving eating meat.

All I know is, no way could I eat a dolphin or chimp or a dog for example. I don't eat much red meat other than a bit of lamb and kangaroo, but my big problem is with pigs. Pigs are smarter than dogs and get treated in fucking awful ways by main stream aussie farming methods, running neck and neck with the battery hen business for outright shitiness - but Matts right - roast pork tastes good, bacon tastes incredible, so I eat only free range pork (and chooks and eggs for that matter).

...I sometimes wonder if that makes me more honest with myself about what I'm consuming, or just pissing in the wind.

I'd sooner try human than dolphin tho. I like dolphins.
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post #80 of 331
1/7/10 at 10:56pm
What the hell is chook, RD? Is that some weird Aussie name for turkey?
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post #81 of 331
1/7/10 at 10:59pm
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Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
but my big problem is with pigs. Pigs are smarter than dogs and get treated in fucking awful ways by main stream aussie farming methods, running neck and neck with the battery hen business for outright shitiness - but Matts right - roast pork tastes good, bacon tastes incredible, so I eat only free range pork
The thing I don't understand is, there's really no point in mass farming pigs, but pork producers still do it. They thrive in a free range environment without hardly any assistance. As a matter of fact, wild pigs are out of control throughout the US and I believe other countries.
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post #82 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
What the hell is chook, RD? Is that some weird Aussie name for turkey?
Sorry, sorry...


chook (plural chooks)

noun - Australia

Definition:

1. chicken: a hen or chicken ( informal )

Quote:
Originally Posted by billylove View Post
The thing I don't understand is, there's really no point in mass farming pigs, but pork producers still do it. They thrive in a free range environment without hardly any assistance. As a matter of fact, wild pigs are out of control throughout the US and I believe other countries.
Exactly, the animals themselves are happier, with a much higher quality of life and on a purely selfish level, their meat is a whole lot more delicious.

Mass farming pigs is purely done to maximise profit and minimise costs, it's as simple as that - and both the pigs and consumers suffer for it.
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post #83 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by billylove View Post
The thing I don't understand is, there's really no point in mass farming pigs, but pork producers still do it. They thrive in a free range environment without hardly any assistance. As a matter of fact, wild pigs are out of control throughout the US and I believe other countries.
Not the best idea to eat wild pigs. But you go right ahead if the notion grabs ya.
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post #84 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:15pm
There's nothing wrong with wild pigs. Just gotta be careful on a case by case basis.
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post #85 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:30pm
Have many posters in this thread watched The Cove?
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post #86 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
Have many posters in this thread watched The Cove?
In all honesty I just don't think I could. It'd break me.
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post #87 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:33pm
I would never eat an animal which was capable of learning sign language, and thus signing, "Don't eat me."

It's OK to eat dolphins, though, because they only have those stupid fins and can't sign worth shit.
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post #88 of 331
1/7/10 at 11:36pm
The only way someone should be allowed to eat dolphin is if they can dive into the water and catch one of those fuckers with their bare hands and teeth.
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post #89 of 331
1/8/10 at 12:13am
They'll jump out of the water and right onto the plate in front of you if you wave a piece of fish in front of them.
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post #90 of 331
1/8/10 at 12:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Sorry, sorry...


chook (plural chooks)

noun - Australia

Definition:

1. chicken: a hen or chicken ( informal )
Awesome word. My dad's a chicken farmer (organic, free range and damn tasty) so I'll be referring to his place as the Chook Ranch from now on.
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post #91 of 331
1/8/10 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
The only way someone should be allowed to eat dolphin is if they can dive into the water and catch one of those fuckers with their bare hands and teeth.
In other words - Jake.

I'm in the same boat as Rain Dog - I love animals, hate seeing them hurt, but I'm a big fat hypocrite because I do eat meat. I tried going semi-veggie ("semi" meaning I still ate fish, but that's not cool either, because I'm pretty sure they can feel pain when you kill 'em, too) for about a year back in 1995, out of a simple feeling of, "I love animals, so why am I eating them?" It wasn't for health reasons, it was strictly for moral reasons. And for that year, I was just sick all the time. Maybe there was something I was doing wrong in going about being veggie, but there you have it. Plus, I missed cheeseburgers and bacon, so there was that.

Dolphins? Naaaah... There are plenty of tasty fish for me to nosh on. I don't need to be eating big giant ones who are smarter than me and harder to catch. Why crank up my frustration level when I can dial up some sushi to be delivered?
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post #92 of 331
1/8/10 at 1:03am
You can get sushi delivered? Jesus.
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post #93 of 331
1/8/10 at 1:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCallaghan View Post
You can get sushi delivered? Jesus.
I know - are you jealous at that too????
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post #94 of 331
1/8/10 at 1:25am
Fuck yes! Have you been outside today? it sucks out there and it's only getting worse. I'd butcher one of these pansy ass dolphin pussies for a shot at that delivery Sushi quite frankly.
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post #95 of 331
1/8/10 at 8:54am
WG you almost had her, all you needed to do, was get her to say those three magic words:

it's a dolphin.
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post #96 of 331
1/8/10 at 9:15am
I think we're missing the real interesting facet to that article. The insinuation that not only we should not only be eating dolphin, but we should also not be caging them or putting them in amusement parks and such. This is a slightly different argument than the whole should we eat or not eat pig/dog/dolphin/glenn beck.

We cage dogs. We might treat them nicely, but it is still a sort of captivity. Now we have here an argument stating that dolphins are too intelligent to be treated the same. That they are persons of a sort. Not giving them a vote or anything, but still proposing a paradigm change in the view of humans v. animals (other than what's been said about chimpanzees). And speaking of monkeys, you could see this as being similar to that vote in Spain to give higher apes some human rights (but again, not going to have them pulling levers in a ballot box, though that would be hilarious).
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post #97 of 331
1/8/10 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
You may have missed it, but I said I'd prefer to eat one caught accidentally. Also, it's not like I'm in a giant rush to make it happen.
So, if I accidently caught your pet bird and was curious as to how it tasted you would be cool with that?
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post #98 of 331
1/8/10 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
...I sometimes wonder if that makes me more honest with myself about what I'm consuming, or just pissing in the wind.
*shrug* At least you're trying. Personally I will always advocate going full veggie over occasional organic/free range, but I respect people who at least try, rather than just hide behind "meh it tastes good".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
Have many posters in this thread watched The Cove?
I've seen the footage online but never seen the doc. Pretty horrific stuff. The earthlings doc probably has a section on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaNY View Post
And for that year, I was just sick all the time. Maybe there was something I was doing wrong in going about being veggie, but there you have it.
Not to be mean or anything, but there's a very high probability that yeah you were doing something wrong at some level. It's been proven that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat-eating one. I know everybody's different etc etc but hell my wife is severely anemic and even so is much healthier since becoming a vegetarian.
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post #99 of 331
1/8/10 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Bean
It's been proven that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat-eating one.
Don't say this to Jake, he'd probably argue with you for days.
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post #100 of 331
1/8/10 at 11:55am
So does all this mean that Aquaman really shouldn't be dominating them with his telepathy anymore?
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