Paying for sex

I've never paid for sex (I barely even take them out on dates... I'm blessed) but plenty of my friends (male, of course) have. It seems every few months I'm getting shocked by another friend who lets that little piece of secret info out. Unashamedly too! I think its far more common than most people realize.

That said, I could never date or want to be with a girl that has been a sex worker (porn or prostitution). No matter how much of a slut the girl I'm with may very well be, I tend to convince myself that she finds something about me endearing, attractive or special to want me in that way. It feels good! Knowing that (with some cash) anyone else could enjoy the same thing... eh, just doesn't do it for me.

I just don't want to think a girl I really care about would ever sell her naughties. It kind of puts anyone with money on some weird even playing field with me, and what's so special about that? I am special because I don't have to pay and I get to deal with your shit? No thanks.

All that said, I'm not the the morality police... these opinions have nothing to do with my opinion of sex workers. I don't have any issue at all with them as people. To each their own.

Does anyone else think PK's reply to this is going to be AMAZING?

Don't do it. I have lots(sadly more than 5, one of which was a cam girl) friends who were strippers, and have heard the most horrible stories from them. It's all anecdotal I know, but still, sex-related jobs take their toll on women*. Yes I realize prostitution is WAY different, but hey, my 2 cents.

*I don't mean the obvious 'HAHA LOL!" way.

Sure I have, why not? As long as everything is legal and above board I don't see anything wrong with it. And I'm certainly all for full legalization. It's the pimps, the illegal trafficking and the coercion that I have a problem with, not the sex part. A legal, properly compensated, licensed and healthy woman having sex for money is just as OK as anyone for me.

As for the ethical part? I've certainly been witness to 'normal' relationships that felt more unethical and damaging than prostitution.

Oh, and for the record I was offered a fairly large sum of money to have sex with an older, very gross woman and declined.

Now, would I have declined if she was hot? Nope. What a hypocrite I am huh? It's like they say though, one key that opens many locks is a MASTER key... a lock opened with any key? That's a shitty lock.

I agree with this. It still bothers me to no end that porn is legal in some places where prostitution is not.

"It's not allowed for you to fuck someone for money... but if we FILM IT and TONS OF PEOPLE SEE IT... it's cool.

Somehow you turn this into a film discussion! I agree though, makes no sense at all.

I don't have anything against anyone involved in either prostitution or porn; like Timothy said, it's for the individual to decide.

While I understand where you're coming from, people willing to get into prostitution don't get help (or, usually, anything other than dismissal) because society in this part of the world is still so conservative. The prevailing idea of "what's becoming", especially for young women, is still far too narrow and oppressive for this to fly. As long as that's the case, I don't see any laws changing.

Well if there's no sex, I understand. Otherwise, nope. A lot of the fetish stuff is feet, latex, tied up, goth girls hanging from ropes, etc., it pushes extremes.

Well it becomes tricky there, some sick fuck, somewhere will get off on anything.

C'mon, who has an EYBROW FETISH?

Im pretty sure some Salma Hayek fan out there was truly blessed by having some unibrow in "Frida".
Also, why no talk of male prostitution? Shouldnt men also be considered in the legitimize and benefit prostitution disscusion?
Also, isnt it a bit tricky to make this legal? How does street prostitution come into play? Do you just allow burdellos and red light districts? What would be required to start a legitimate prostitution bussiness? Would the word "escort" go out of fashion?
Im fascinated by this discussion, Cleo, thanks! (Not being sarcastic, i do think this is a really original and interesting topic)

The health issues would be tricky to manage; I mean, does a goverment unit ensure and do monthly visits to the red light districts and interviews registered sexual workers monthly to make sure they are not working while sick, so to speak?
Also, I has to be said, how would legalized prostitution affect illegal underage prostitution and the fight against it?

I'd be fine with fucking for money, but the kind of women who would probably be into me would be really broke. Or they'd pay me using dollar bills pulled out of their bra. Thanks, Miss Tillie, can't wait to peel off those Pampers again next week!

Otherwise, I don't care about sex for money as long as you're not spreading diseases or putting yourself or others into incredibly dangerous situations, go crazy and let it rain $100 bills and bodily fluids. I agree that it does need to have some sort of oversight (mostly for health and safety reasons like I mentioned) and legality would help that, but it's not really something I've given enough consideration aside from "Well, it's his/her body, have fun!"

A) they're morons

B) they're morons

a friends uncle owns a whorehouse/strip-joint and I used to hang out there quite regularly, though I never paid for sex. I have nothing against it, and most of the women seemed to like it too - not to mention the fact that they were making an assload of money. My only problem was that almost all of them seemed to be plagued by emotional issues.

I've paid for sex every goddamn day since 2003. I keep her rent paid, she keeps me laid.

Obviously you are 100% correct, Cleo. And why shouldn't they be able to pay into social security, or get Workman's comp if injured on the job, etc? All the benefits that a working person would get?

In America, we have alot of people who are still aghast at the idea of a heliocentric universe though, so we're more than a little uptight sadly.

I have no idea when we'll see progress on this issue in the courts or the legislature. After the election of Scott Brown* in my home state, I am kind of down on the whole American Experiment

But... with that said, I'm very uncomfortable with endorsing the choice to become a sex worker, just because I think for most people it's not a choice you make but one that's made for you by factors and circumstances out of your control. Often you don't really choose to do it you just sort of wake up one day and realize that's whats going on.

I think doing it for the wrong reasons can be very damaging, and I'd like to know that there was a way to address that, in terms of public policy, before I was completely comfortable with legalizing it.

*a dastardly villain, and a professed racist, who was elected to the senate of the united states

Don't we all pay for sex? There are always strings attached.

I've paid for it numerous times. It was always while being in a different country and not much time to kill.

I'm not James Bond, I can't just land at the airport and have a woman falling into bed with me in a matter of hours.

I am not saying that getting rid of laws that endanger people is something that should be delayed just because I have concerns. Like I said, you're "100% right" about all the reasons to legalize it. It's kind of a no brainer (like the marijuana question. Legal pot, or super cartel on the border? You decide. Or wait... congress decides, and they're for the super cartel)

What I mean to say is that, yes, all jobs have the potential to be no fun, but the kind of activities you're talking about can be damaging psychologically. There is a difference between not liking your job cause it's boring and your job fucking you up.

I'd like to see any brothel have to pay for health insurance that covered psychological counseling on demand for it's workers, etc. Or they'd have to offer to pay for job training for anyone who wants to look for a different career. That kind of thing would go a long way to assuage my uncertainties

PS Sorry your retail job sucks

Courtships can be melted down like that, but I'd argue that if you're paying for dinner, movies, jewelry, etc. at least there's the possibility that there is some thought and consideration being made towards that person you want to slam. If you're giving straight up cash money, it could really cheapen the fun and undercut the spontenanity that both parties might have in the slamming. This is speaking from shameful experience!

I've never paid for sex, though I should say I had a lap dance in Vegas that was fantastic and if she had offered the full package for another $100 bucks I wouldn't have hesitated.

Certainly it should be legalized and regulated. They should set up brothels in industrial areas to minimize the nimbys and have security and health personnel in addition to sex workers. It would be better for the overall community health to have safeguards in place. Prostitution happens regardless of laws, by legalizing it you are increasing the protection of the women and lowering STD's. Plus, we can tax it to help fund other social programs.

Would it be ideal? Nope. Would I want my sister or nieces to be legal sex trade workers? Nope. But it would be a better solution then what we are doing now.

George Carlin said something(I heard a long time ago so this is a very loose paraphrase) to the effect of"Why are they against prostitution? Cause they give someone an orgasm? There should be more orgasms not less."

I think it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as there's a cultural stigma attached to the job, and as long as the common idea is that you have to be somehow damaged to opt for this kind of job, people in those dire situations will gravitate to it. Of course changing the laws doesn't make that stigma disappear overnight (though it is a begining), and most likely prostituition would be something people in trouble would take up anyway...but the thing is, with the social stigma being what it is now, everytime I hear a professional sex worker give the usual arguments about how it doesn't affect their emotional life and so on, part of me immediatley gets skeptical because, well, how could it not??

I realise that is not a very constructive reaction, tho.

Well, I see what you're saying but I really wasn't talking about the cultural stigma aside from how it contributes to backwards legislation.

I think there are plenty of kinds of sex besides the for profit kind that are looked down on by certain people, or that have a cultural stigma, that people manage to enjoy guilt free anyway. I was saying that having sex with people to get stuff, be it money or what have you, can be damaging if you don't enjoy the sex or who you are with (not to mention the risk of involving yourself with scary people)

I would doubt many people who trade sex are damaged just because the bible belt would hold them in low esteem if they knew how they spent their nights

Anyway, I've said my piece and now I'm done talking about this.

I'm off to watch OTHELLO, a movie where nothing at all bad results from culturally unpopular sex activities : P

This is going to come off as prudish and judgmental but I think by legalizing prostitution you're basically telling young men and women that "yes, selling your body is a perfectly adequate and fine way to support yourself". I can understand that some are desperate to make money and maybe all they feel they have to offer is sex. However, I think they can set their sights higher and do better. And I think society can offer them better.

The question is why do these people turn to prostitution in the first place?

I think you should be able to do anything you want with your own body as long as it's not negatively affecting others. If it's making you money too, awesome. If I want to sell my kidney(and I kind of do) I shouldn't have to fly to Asia to do it, dammit.

*edit- I guess I'm sounding like I'm flip-flopping on the issue, but yeah, I guess it's all about being careful. The situations with my former stripper friends were kind of insane anyway, and drugs were usually involved.

You're right; that's prudish and judgmental.

From a strictly commercial standpoint, selling your body is no different than selling your mind. Anything beyond that is up to the participants, as fully functioning adults. If legalization can ensure that the process is safe, then I don't see how some kind of moralistic stance enters the picture. "Won't someone think of the children!?!" is a pretty classic straw man in that regard, and particularly useless in this day and age.

There's a really ridiculous generalization underlying some of these comments, which is that workers in the sex industry are by definition desperate and/or fucked in the head. Surely that's the case for some people, but you get supremely desperate or fucked up people in every industry. At the end of the day, it's not for everyone. But if you're ready, willing and able (and of age), what's the problem?

The thing is that lots of jobs (all jobs?) can affect our emotional lives. Being a therapist, where you interact with depressed or psychologically damaged people all day, would absolutely affect your emotional life. Being a cop in a particularly crime-ridden city would affect your emotional life. And these are only the extremes. You can find intense emotional reactions to all kinds of employment, I'd guess.

So, while I agree with you that a professional sex worker is probably being a little dishonest with us or herself to say that she's able to completely separate her private, emotional life from her career, I think we'd all be guilty of some dishonesty if we claimed the same. And, of course, it all depends on the individual.

Plus, it's entirely possible that the lion's share of the emotional problems a sex worker might face stem directly from the stigma you mention and not the physical work, itself. I suspect that legalization would go a long way toward removing the stigma. People have a weird relationship with the law when it comes to acceptable and unacceptable behavior. When an authority tells us that something that was previously unacceptable is now acceptable, cultural attitudes toward it can shift pretty quickly.

ETA: Or roughly what Banks just wrote.

Never paid for it myself (although Diva is correct, we all do, ultimately) but have had two fantastic long term relationships with girls who were Escorts over the past fifteen years (my first and last girlfriends oddly enough). I didn't know either of them were Working Girls until it got to the "Sooooo there is something I would really like to tell you" phase of the relationship and I can tell you neither of them were forced into or in any way. Both were like Cleo describes herself, smart, hot, huge sexual appetites and essentially sick of giving it away for free. In Victoria, the state Melbourne is in, it's sorta legal. You need to register for a PCA number which is a tax thing and submit yourself for pretty regular health checks or you will be denied the trading license which is when it becomes less legal, and you are deemed a threat to public health.

When I dated the first girl who was an Escort I was a working as a fucking kitchenhand and I was way more psychologically fucked up about my job than she was about hers. Both girls are now happily married with good jobs, healthy relationships and one of them is about to breed. No lasting damage done there, at all.
Turning the conversation nerdy, I always liked in Firefly the idea that the professional Courtesan had made a come back in society and was looked upon with some respect. Probably won't happen any time soon in our lifetime, but hey.

Also, making the assumption that a (more often than not) female adult human being who makes a choice to do something with her life that you don't agree with is mentally unfit, well, gross. And paternalistic. And condescending. Reminds me of those pro-life creeps who want to make abortion illegal because women are too wee-brained to comprehend the enormity of the choice they're making.

One thing I find weird about this conversation (and all conversations about prostitution) are the recurring "you're always paying for it" comments.

If you insist on monetizing sexual relationships that aren't intrinsically monetized (like prostitution), unless you're absolutely awful in bed, isn't it more of an equal exchange of services? With prostitution, the prostitute isn't necessarily getting off. She's receiving money for your pleasure.

To put a finer point on it, if you feel like you're paying for sex when you buy your significant other a nice dinner or a gift, maybe you ought to think about... well, doing a better job of fucking him/her, thus leaving the buying of said stuff non-obligatory.

I was actually joking, and I assumed Diva was.

Personal Opinion No.1: I got no issues at all with prostitution in general, as in the concept of it. Actually, a friend of mine is a prostitute, which has given me quite an insight in the workings of the business, which leads to the following problem: The actual reality is something I DO have issues with.
Would legalization make it better? I am all for giving it a try. See, it wont go away, and it isnt inhuman, sinful or whatever else you want to peg on it. Its a job you may not want for yourself, but its the oldest trade of mankind, perhaps next to that of a hunter, and its here to stay.

Anything that can help with the illegal, truly dark sides of the business, I am all for it.

Personal Opinion No.2: I never paid for sex in the literal sense, nor would I consider it. And while I am not normally a jealous or conservative person at all, I cannot for certain say that I wouldnt be having a problem with dating, or a relationship, with a "working girl". Likely, I eventually would at least try and get her to pursue a different kind of work.

One thing I believe should be considered by people like Cleo who take up the trade voluntarily and under their own control: Consider the possible consequences of the social stigma that comes with it. While the job may not be all that dangerous to you, your health, your mental state, it can seriously wreck your social standing, and thats not just a matter of whether people like you.
One day, you may just be looking to get out of your retail job and go somewhere else. I believe in our society, becoming a prostitute can close the doors on a LOT of future chances simply due to the unfair negative assocations coming from it.

I am, for example, absolutely sure that the jobs of both my girlfriend and my best female friend would never have taken either, had they been prostitutes in the past. And they are nice jobs, thats for sure.

So, I think a certain amount of foresight and judgment needs to be applied here, even if it isnt fair, because its a trade that has a lot more negative ramifications on ones potential later life than many others.

If prostitution/escorting (is even saying prostitution pejorative? I dont want to offend anyone) were completely legal and supported/respect by the law and government officials, would you make it a full time job?

Personally ( and as someone who worked a small time in crime journalism), if making prostitution legal would mean street pimps going extinct then I'm all for it.

I agree with the first part, and though I agree generally with what you're saying vis-a-vis societal attitudes towards previously "unacceptable" behavior made legal, I think the jury's out on how quickly legalization would turn the tide on this particular something that's intertwined so intimately with our puritannical roots. Acting in pornography is "legal," for instance, but it still has the same kind of stigma.

Actually, about this point I'm curious as to what's been Cleo's experience. Europeans are much more relaxed generally in their sexual attitudes, but the US and the Brits share a common ancestry here in our fuddy-duddy-ness. What do you think, Cleo?

The stigma on pornography has changed MASSIVELY in the last decade. It used to be incredibly shameful to be just a regular old actor. Times change.

It's not ridiculous at all. People have negative ideas about prostitutes because there are so many horror stories. Prostitution might not be negative for all of them but for a significant number of them it is.

Of course you get troubled people in all types of professions. The difference is for most people their jobs are rarely illegal, potentially dangerous, and require them to perform something very personal and intimate with someone they don't know. And at the end of the day it's easier for them to get away from it all.

If people should have the right to do want they want to their bodies I don't think we have the right to make money off of them.

Off topic but the problem with you selling your kidney is that people would be able to sell their organs to the highest bidder, meaning those on a waiting list for an organ transplant would potentially miss out and those who couldn't afford it would be shit out of luck.

Isn't that what anyone that does manual labor does, already? Everyone that works is renting out their body, mind or both. Its your own morality that dictates how you are willing to sell yourself. You wouldn't sell your body in a sexual way and that's completely fair but what someone else does with their body shouldn't matter to you.

I think folks like yourself (and I'm not attacking you) are under the impression that when something in direct contrast to your own personal morals gets legitimized it somehow undermines those morals. I suspect this is why things like gay marriage and prostitution are such hot button issues with certain groups while they hurt no one.

You should reevaluate how you perceive such things... just because something is "allowed" doesn't mean you're wrong for disagreeing with it.

Without question it's taken huge strides towards the mainstream. That said, I have trouble believing that young people who are thinking about getting into porn don't still have those age-old concerns about what it will do to their careers, their relationships, etc.

There are people today getting into porn because they think they can get a real movie career out of it, and that's coming true. Right now the crossover is into other trashy things, but Tera Patrick has a fucking book that's selling copies. Sasha Grey was in a Soderbergh movie.

While Chloe Sevigny has already sucked a dick on camera we still need another mainstream star to do real fucking on screen to cross the divide. European filmmakers are going there - Gaspar Noe's ENTER THE VOID is damn explicit, and he can possibly get real talent in the future willing to do really crazy things. Lars Von Trier got Charlotte Gainsbourg to masturbate on camera. That's the beginning of the big change.

Von Trier also had a sideline producing erotica for years. Apparently made a fair bit of cash out of it. It's becoming more and more accepted as people get over there prudishness.

PS A last quick question,

If you will indulge me a moment, I'll first frame my question and put it into context

I was conversing with a citizen of the British isles recently. We talk film, but he does not like Kenneth Branagh which I find distressing

I was raving about how great Branagh was in KB's MS's F (Which, oddly enough, Coppola once considered as a potential follow up to FFC's BS's D), and this UK person was saying how Kenneth Branagh is "always playing Kenneth Branagh".

We did not see eye to eye on the matter.

I was perplexed. Kenneth Branagh is probably one of my top 15 favorite British people! How could this genuine UKer not like him?

As I delved deeper, I began to learn that a major chip on my friend's shoulder was that Branagh was from Belfast, and had changed his accent in order to fit in to the Royal Shakespeare Company world, and make a name for himself as a stage actor.

He had a whole litany of complaints about KB, so at the time I paid this one no more mind than the rest

The conversation turned to the Kenneth Branagh movie CONSPIRACY, and I mentioned Ian McNiece from ROME on HBO was in it. He said he doesn't watch HBO except for THE WIRE. Somehow we moved on to how Stringer Bell from the WIRE was a Brit, and which Britains were able to do a convincing American accent (For the record we agreed Christian Bale and Bob Hoskins and Helena Bonham Carter were the best)

Once again though, he steered the conversation back to accents in England, and the important part they play in the British Caste system. I brought up Jimmy McNulty, another Brit, and he immediately remarked that Mr West had attended Eton and probably sounded like the Queen in real life.

My British friend was from Manchester, and he recounted tales where he'd be working at the top of his field (museuming) and would be scoffed at as a dumb northern boy. Why? All because he didn't sound posh. Because of the tone of voice he spoke with, people assumed him to be of low intelligence (I find him quite charming)

He said the word bath to me, twice, and supposedly one way was the high class intonation, and the other way denoted a "low class" upbringing.

For the life of me, I could not tell the difference.

It broke my heart ; this tyranny the Britain people place on themselves. This horrid class business...

In the immortal words of TJ, my favorite founding father
Why can't this basic truth, first put to paper more than two centuries ago, abolish class in England? A nation with which we share not only a common heritage, but an unbreakable bond forged in the heat of battle?

My thoughts again return to the tale of the Manchester Museum Man. It brings to mind a question, that I hope you won't find impolite or off topic.

I'm curious: How does your accent effect your work? Does it change what you're paid? God forbid, how you are treated? Are you forced to hide or disguise your accent?

EDIT: Forget it. I know better.