The end of Brangelina? - Page 2

If you're an addict you're never not an addict. You don't suddenly beat addiction. His point is that if she's not doing heroin now, she seems to be trying to desperately fill a void in her life with all those urchins

I wonder if people in Dr. Drew's (sigh) field actually take him seriously.
I know he is an actual certified psychologist (psychiatrist?) but he seems just as desperate for fame/keeping his fame as the supposed addicts he "counsels" on all of those VH1 shows.

So yeah, his Brad/Angelina remarks are beyond stupid.

Oh, no doubt they think of him as a joke (Though I guess compared to quacks like "Dr" Phil, he's got a leg up), but I do think he's right on the money about Angelina. As a person who struggles with addiction, I can tell you there is no way that collecting oriental orphans is an appropriate quick fix solution. I've always thought her relationship with Brad was doomed, and that he's in way over his head. Dr Drew has my back on that, which is why I posted the link

Or maybe she, you know, wants to give them a better life.

I'm sure Dr Drew is relieved about that.

I gotta call bullshit on that one. It is possible to distance yourself enough over time that you can pretty much consider it licked, or at least really, really under control. Someone who spends their teen years completely torn up on any and all substances (I don't mean normal experimentation here) can get to a point in their life where they can no longer think of themselves as an addict. I'm not saying that is the case with everyone who has struggled with a some sort of an addiction, but you can get healthy enough where it isn't as all encompassing as you and the good doctor are making it out to be.


Trust me.

Hey say what you want about that Celebrity rehab show but Drew is pretty spot on about people. For years I listened to him on Loveline. People would call in and get about 3 sentences in and had already pegged them pretty well. Seriously some girl would call in and talk about some relationship problem and out of nowhere Drew would ask "were you molested around like age 8" which was quickly followed with "how do you know!". Through years of his practice he has seen people like this time and time again and is able to peg them pretty quick. However right he might be though coming out and talking about it is stupid and has gotten him in trouble a few times. On the other hand he is the person they call to ask about relationships and addiction and if he doesn't comment then what good is he?

As for the rehab show im torn. On one hand I share the belief that putting a bunch of celebrities on tv is doing him and VH1 more good then them. However he has argued that paying them at least gets them to show up and stay. They show up for the money but then actually get SOME treatment which you could say is better than getting the zero they were getting before.

I'm quoting this for truth. The idea that addiction is an incurable disease is peddled by people who can't or don't want to accept that people have choices to make and those choices can be praiseworthy or blameworthy. The last few generations have witnessed us turn aversion to the acceptance of the consequences of our positions and actions into a fucking art.

Really, there is a really fucking easy way to find that you're not "powerless" over addiction: you stop seeking out and buying the drugs. I know, that's a far out concept, but it's actually really simple to avoid going to stores and street corners and giving people money in exchange for products that are bad for you.

Also, regardless of how skilled or unskilled he is or what his academic pedigree happens to be, anyone who claims insight into the health of a patient with whom he has no history is an irresponsible asshole. I don't care if you're a television show host/medical doctor offering that insight about celebrity couples or a Senator/medical doctor offering insight regarding a patient in a vegetative state you've only encountered via heavily edited video, you're an asshole and have given up all credibility.

Well...it's not really easy. It's not even kinda easy or a little easy or any other kind of easy. It gets easier eventually, but even that is a relative kind of easy.

It's not black and white, is my point. Every person is different, and how they handle their addiction or conquer or grow out or struggle with is different. There's no absolutes. If Ms. Jolie was a full blown addict 10 or 15 years ago, she might be kinda okay at this point.

My mom gave up smoking twenty years ago. She is not an addict. People do beat addiction. It's very possible that Jolie has. Either way, to assume that she is substituting "urchins" (nice) for heroin is utterly retarded. Overly ambitious/irresponsible parenting, maybe.

Without even getting into the addiction: is it a disease? (my answer ? No, I have a robust immune system) question, you guys are wrong. It changes your brain chemistry. You may be able to over power your addiction and not use, but you will always process the need for the drug differently than a non user. For heroin, this is true a thousand fold (not that I have ever been addicted to an opiate)

Will address this more later once I am off my ipod

C'mon, Katie. Stop.

First, that's not the point Pinsky is making. The point he seems to be advocating is that anything outside of lifelong therapy--a shocking prescription for a therapist!--is irresponsible.

Second, how in the fuck is how you process the drug even relevant if you're no longer using the drug?

No Kate is saying Drew and others(ya know people not on tv) are saying is that drug addicts are different from everyone else. Most of us can smoke pot and drink when we want. Addicts on the other hand can't because of the way they are wired. Even when you take the drug away they there is usually some sort of activity to replace it. You have to learn to deal with those things in a healthy way. I heard Robert Downey Jr. talking about it in some interview. Look you are correct in that if your off the drug for years it gets easier but you still have that addict "gene" or whatever you want to call that way of thinking.

The idea of addiction being a disease is not backed by any serious literature. There's some great books on the subject (check out this one) summarizing research about it, but basically the whole premise is fueled by a potent combination of ignorance, religious guilt, and monied interests. Studies show that up to 80% of Americans have quit drinking after evincing alcoholism symptoms.

EDIT: About the site I picked, it was the first one on google search. Despite horrible use of font, there's some good stuff there.

Drug and alcohol addictions are usually symptoms of some underlying psychological issue. Deal with the issue, the boozing and drugging will subside. That said, heroin does result in physical dependency. One can wean themselves off of it, but its not an easy process, and certainly not one that would be easy to do without professional help. Having watched plenty of Celebrity Rehab and Sober House, it doesn't seem like Angelina is a heroin addict. She'd be showing way more symptoms than just weight loss.

Maybe but she certainly has the psychological issues that come with drug use. She has done all kinds of interviews that make her seem "dark"(her words). Oh and yeah Drew talks about that all the time that usually there is an issue but dealing with the issue is hard when it's easier to just get fucked up.

To be clear, I am a psychologist so the psych issue stuff I posted is legit science. The only thing Drew and his Vh1 shows taught me is what a severely dependent heroin addict looks like.

Diva.. No one is suggesting that she is currently using. What is being said is that grappling with an addiction can effect you psychologically in ways that impact every aspect of your life long after you are stop using, and leave you ill prepared to manage relationships

Yes and even though Drew is on tv he has been treating addicts for like 20 years. Again hate on the show all you want but the man cetainly has worked the field.

It's not clear Angelina ever was a heroin addict. She said she tried it in the past - along with a dozen other drugs. So have lots of people (see half of Hollywood). Regardless if she was or wasn't an "addict", if she went through withdrawl and got all the drugs out her system, there's no reason she shouldn't be able to function in a relationship... UNLESS there's some underlying psychological issue.

From all her interviews, we know she has severe daddy issues and trouble trusting people. It may very well take a lifetime for her to work through that as she still doesn't seem to be on very good terms with him and - at least at one point in time - its something she very much wanted. Her need to adopt so many children may likely stem from her own feelings of abandonment and her need to ensure others don't feel that way she did. Her daddy issues may also translate to her relationship with Brad, but since, like Dr. Drew, I don't know anything about Angelina's situation other than what I read in interviews and tabloids, this is all just speculation. We don't know jack about what's happening in her life so to make wild accusations about the state of her relationship is just asinine.

I'll say this about Angelina, whatever her problems, she probably doesn't refer to her kids as Orientals.

Oh yes she does! And when she gets horny, she gives each of them 20 bucks to go see a star war.

I think you're confusing her with your mom, mcnooj.

Right. I think we are arguing the same point. Drew treats the symptoms of the drugs and alcohol first because you have to. But its the underlying psychological issues that takes a long time to work out. If Angelina hasn't worked those things out, yes, its likely they'll manifest themselves in her relationship. But as I posted above, we don't know what she has or hasn't done. So Drew just spit balling on hearsay is kinda ridiculous.

ETA: Okay, I just reread your posts. You're advocating that there's an "addict gene". I don't think that is really backed up by science yet.

Oh snap!

Just wondering Diva, but did you ever read Dr. Drew's book about celebrity narcissism? I don't recally if it ever talked about Angelina Jolie, but evidently a lot of celebrities exhibit narcissistic tendencies, which aided in them seeking to become celebrities in the first place. Quite a bit of which stem from sexual abuse as children.

I'm gonna go do some drugs.

I was with you until the abuse part. What?!

Humans in general are narcissists, and it can be further nurtured through culture. All we have to do is look at Facebook and YouTube and see that with more and more outlets to display oneself, people do so. Trying to pin narcissism on any one factor, like abuse, is way too simplistic.

That's the thesis in the book for the most part, from what I recall at least. I read a year or two ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Effect-.../dp/0061582336

"Childhood disconnect or trauma" can include sexual abuse, but I'm sure Drew talked about other sorts of trauma. Emotional abandonment is a huge factor that leads to attention seeking. Celebs like Lindsay and Brittany weren't sexual abused, but the trauma of their parents divorces weighed heavily on them as children and plays out in their public personas. And rich brats like Jason Davis, who is on the current Celeb Rehab, is a billionaire who can everything but his daddy's love.

People who have good social support systems can weather the storm. But celeb stories generally involve some tale of being surrounded by dozens of people and feeling alone. If you don't have someone who you trust, who loves and protects you, its gonna be a hard and lonely life; a life you'd want to drown out with the illusion of happiness via drugs, booze, and fame.

The Beatles are right: All you need is love!

It's been a year since I read it. I just remember it being kinda repetitive.

Well I do agree Drew should really stop commenting. I mean he might be right because he does tend to read people well. He was the guy that taught me what "exhaustion" really means when it pertains to 24 year old clebrities. Problem is though he is the go to guy the media comtacts to talk about crazy behavior so he kind of has to say something other than I don't know.

As far as the gene though it was really more of a word I was using. Although Drew does say that the vast majority already have some form of addiction in their familly. But really I was more getting at the trauma changes them and gives them that addiction trait.

Well yeah isn't that what celebrity really is? I mean yeah there are really talented people who want to practice their craft and make money doing it. But a much bigger portion of celebs, even though some very talented, just want attention. Seriously the people you see in the magazines every week, thats them. I mean what could be more attention seeking than being on a giant movie screen in a 200 million dollar movie?

Let me ask you a question - do you think the following scenario is possible:

An ex-junkie (I'm talking years and years sober, say 15) is left alone in a room with a generous amount of cocaine and told "see ya tomorrow". He or she doesn't touch it. Has no desire to touch it. Just leaves it the fuck alone and does something else.

Do you think that could happen, or are they definitely without question gonna hoover the whole thing down because that's what they would have done 2 decades ago without a second thought?

I bet psychologists all over the US are so overjoyed when stuff like that become popular. Especially when their patients accuse them of scamming them "because Dr. Drew finds out what's wrong in half an hour." Such quackery and remote diagnosis must be really be warming their hearts.

Having read a portion of Drew's book on Amazon, I'm not so sure the media contacts him. He admits to being a narcissist himself and says he goes to therapy to help control it. Seems to me he seeks out the media, not the other way around.

No look he obviously puts himself out there. But seriously who else are they going to ask about addiction and odd celebrity behavior. Perhaps the only guy thats comfortable in front of a camera and actually knows something about the subject.

Licensed professionals who don't have an agenda pushing their TV shows, books, and radio show.

Right...but people know him. He is a "media doctor" but he seems to be the only media doctor thats actually a practicing doctor.

Never heard of the guy until I read this thread. Maybe he's not as well known as you might think. Heck, a quick google search (celebrity psychologist) pulls up a Dr. Linda (hot, btw) and I didn't see a Dr. Drew at all.. is that like, a nickname? wait.. is Dr. Drew really Dr. Phil!? I've heard of Dr. Phil.

Oh you have heard of Phil but Phil doesn't even have his license anymore. Drew is a board certified physician addiction medicine specialist(not a psychologist) that has practiced for 20 years and is still practicing running his own clinic. And seriously never heard of celebrity rehab? Even if you don't like him or the show certainly you've heard of the show at least. Not to mention the whole Mtv Loveline thing in the late 90's.

Waaaaaaalt has a hard on for Drew. I've never seen someone work so hard to defend someone's rep. :P

Snaieke, for more info on Drew check out his wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Pinsky

I thought we were friends Diva......

I spent many years as a kid listening to Loveline as a kid.

No he is suggesting that given how she's discussed her heroin addiction in the press, it's clear that she has not really come to terms with it. You don't get past it. You can't have been a heroin addict in the past, because if you were an addict you are one now even if you are not using the drug currently. Someone here said that I am suggesting that an recovering addict would be powerless to avoid a bag of drugs if they were locked in a room with it for a night. Wrong. They'd spend every moment of the night willing themselves not to touch it though. It's not a problem that goes away with time. Once your brain has tried something like heroin, it begins to treat the desire for that chemical on a level of importance usually reserved for air, water and food. To not give in to the reptile brain impulse, you need to consciously work every day of your life not to use


I think I asked you in another thread not to call me that. I find it paternalistic and demeaning. Thanks for your understanding

Who cares if she's adopting babies to form some kind of UN committee, she's rich and they're probably getting a better life, better than most at any rate.

Yeah, that's pretty much all wrong.

I kid because I love.

Those kids are not wanting, that's for sure.

In my own anecdotal way I've worked with a lot of addicts who were 'cured' but still consider themselves addicts. They admit that there will always be temptation to lapse, even if it's 20 years down the road. Hell I've worked with people who have done that very thing, all it takes is something to throw their world askew and it's easy to fall back to. No it's not likely that you leave a drug addict alone with a big plate of cocaine they'll sniff it all up, but if you manage to do it at exactly the right (wrong) time in their life they may well do.

It's somewhat ridiculous to say that every 'former' addict is just a relapse waiting to happen, but it's also ridiculous to say that just because some years have past they'll never fall into it again. Hell even with the best treatment money can buy I've seen otherwise healthy looking people relapse back into it.

A woman I work with now, her sister-in-law lost everything due her alcoholism. Her family had to leave her, she lost her job and her nice home. But she put things back together for herself, went to rehab and sought out counselling. This was years ago, then just this month her Mother died and she went straight back to the booze. Now you can argue that her treatment was ineffective, personally I don't think it was. But with some people the need to drink, or smoke or fuck (Don't get me started on the short shrift that sex addicts get) is too great that therapy simply can't help them.

The problem when it comes to things like this is that blanket statements are all too dangerous. Just because A does something it doesn't mean that X, Y and Z will do it the same way, that's what can make a therapists life difficult.

An addict can always relapse, most don't of course with the proper treatment (Which is all about identifying problems and knowing that their crutch isn't the answer) but there's always the chance.

As for Dr Drew, I like him quite a bit. Just take a listen to the Loveline Archives online to see how good at his job he can be (It's really quite staggering just how quickly he can diagnose people, or spot a fake caller - though funnily enough through Osmosis Adam Carolla gets pretty good at it too, but even he seems wowed by Drew at times). Though the shitty reality shows he does kind of cheapens his work a bit, doesn't mean he shouldn't be listened to. His first book 'Cracked' is an interesting (And occasionally harrowing read). Andy Dick of all people was probably right when he said that Drew's problem is that he probably cares too much. He clearly sees Celebrity Rehab et al as a way of educating people, the problem is that you can't do that on a VH1 show because you're dealing with celebrities who have their own agenda, and he's pretty much admitted as such. If he had made the show with real people then it would've helped his case, but then it's less likely to get aired. Doesn't stop him doing it though.

You basically supported my argument. Every relapse you described was not due to a physical need to have a drug, drink, or sex, it was a coping mechanism resulting from a trauma the person couldn't handle on their own. Addicts, if you want to call them that, have trained themselves to deal with emotional hardships by avoiding the problem through their "addiction". These addictions aren't diseases to be treated; their behavioral issues triggered by certain cues. Provide the person with a good social support system that they can turn to in times of need, and drugs and therapy will become unnecessary. Unfortunately, many people who turn to drugs and alcohol make other bad decisions, such as who to include in their support system, and when those people turn out to betray them, they fall back off the wagon and have even more psychological issues to deal with in regards to emotional betrayal.

Also, for the record. I think Drew is a fine therapist. But to hold him up as the standard of excellence in celeb addiction cases is absurd. He's the go-to guy because he puts himself out there, not because he is the only person who has ever treated addiction cases.

Well Diva no one was ever claiming that. My posts said that because of the show he is the go to guy. Of course there are other doctors who deal with the issue but how many with a name your average person would know? How many in the media in general?

And yes I agree with you about the emotional thing but again I do wonder why those people turn to the drugs when others who have problems don't. There are plenty of good people with friends and family who love them that do turn to drugs. Honestly im starting to get more into the whole "addiction gene" theory. i think that there are some people on this earth who are just born predisposed. When they get to a bad emotional place they dive head first into substances and even after physical dependancy goes away. Speaking of Loveline one of the big questions was always "did you have a father, mother or uncle who was an alcholic" and the answer was usually yes.

Police, lawyers, and other law-involved professions have the same issue because of shows like CSI. "What do you mean you can't catch the guy who did this in 45 minutes? Don't you have a high-tech lab on speed dial?"
I see an addiction in your future. Perhaps compulsive message-boarding?

In regards to Dr. Drew... I guess it beats consulting Miss Cleo for her free tarot card reading. Maybe.