The Rugby thread - Six nations / Super 14 / Tri nations

I think the 6 nations is between Ireland and Wales this time out.

Ireland are looking extremely strong at the moment, without a doubt they have the best talent pool in the Northern Hemisphere. A multitude of choices for fly-half if O'Gara isn't fit. Almost got a good young player to cover every position. With a little more experience in the next few years could help Ireland could challenge for number 1 in the world. (not that I'm biased). But seeing as they went unbeaten in the Autumn Tests (why they didn't play New Zealand is beyond me, that could have been a great match), thing's can only be viewed as positive in the Ireland camp.

Wales are doing things the right way and nothing truly negative can be said. They introduce young players in well and have a good mix of fresh and experience in their side, have to be seen as a good shout for the Six Nations. They do have to come back strong after what can only be called a poor Autumn Test series.

France need more fresh blood in their team to fully warrant a charge. They seem to have the problem of bringing in new players and then if they don't play well, to bring the older players back in. This shuffling just won't work. In saying that, their teams have been performing well in the Heineken Cup. Four qualifying into the last eight can only be seen as positive. (even is Stade) were lucky to progress against a surprisingly good Ulster side this year.

England are hopeless at the minute. The Heineken Cup proves the lack of talent that England has at the minute. Only one club to progress in the Quarter-finals? Thats down right terrible. English rugby scares me currently as there seems to be no urgency or want to push forward and get a good team in. Johnson is not the man for the job, other than the discipline problem, there just doesn't seem to be anything positive to say. Their main look in for fly-half Cipriani has as much injury problems as Wilkinson, so no continuity can or will be kept in that side. England can hope for third place at best in the Six Nations, though i would love to be proved wrong.

I could even sense Scotland finishing above England this year. Especially after Scotland's very encouraging Autumn Tests. Robinson seems to be doing a decent job there and is perhaps working with players the way he was restricted to with England. (i think Robinson's problem was possibly too much pressure being placed on him by the media and fans.) With Scotland, i feel they will give him more breathing space as not much can be expected from the fans yet surely? Their expectations should only be to challenge for a top 3 place in the Six Nations as any more is pushing it.

Italy, are well Italy, they are improving with each passing year and it is encouraging to see a side that truth be told, has no right in the Six Nations slowly grow and improve. They may sneak a win, but i find it unlikely.

I have no knowledge of the Southern hemisphere rugby wise (other than the South African's seemingly forget they are playing rugby sometimes), but willing to be educated on it.

I think England need a coach who is experienced International level, have Johnson as his assistant so he can learn the ropes easier without the pressure of being the head coach. Of course Johnson won't agree to that. But It's something i think England should have considered before jumping in with inexperience. England Captain is a hard one to figure out, as when the last time i watched England, there just didn't appear to be a leader amongst them who would grab the team by the beck and push them.

Italy is international rugby's "work in progress" i feel, For the first 7 years Italians barely cared about the rugby team, it's only now that their own country has taken proper notice and some of the grass roots work started 10 years ago is only starting to see it's fulfillment now and in the next couple of years. Italy have been relying on too many players who aren't Italian. Those players from New Zealand or Argentina are effectively "A" squad quality so not much can be expected from them. The next ten years i feel will make or break Italy as a rugby nation. Their grass roots is improving, same as the facilities etc they have for rugby. Italian rugby was always going to be a very long slog in getting it up to proper International standards. Their main problem is they are too good now to be relegated into lower International leagues and matches, but are too poor to be in the Six Nations.

I'm looking forward to the increasing skill in Argentina's rugby. I mostly watch NZ rugby but I do follow six nations when I can. I didn't get to follow rugby as close as I'd like last year so I'm not going to have a lot of prediction ability. I agree ODriscoll and the Irish side look good.

If NZ keeps improving I think they'll beat 'em, but if NZ keeps having so many technical problems (crappy line outs, etc) Argentina will beat them. I think Aus and SA will be split (Argentina will beat each team once and lose to each once). Argentina does a great job bringing their top game. You can't underestimate them or you'll look like France at the '07 world cup.

Erin Go Bragh, baby. Erin Go Bragh. Let's embrace the bias, since we're starved for just about everything else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...sh/8494486.stm

I found this interesting, Johnson is practically saying that missing 3 players has been the reason for England's terrible Autumn Test series. Does Anyone else agree with him? Can three players inclusion be so vital to an International side?

Special Agent McLean is many things, but he is not Iri- where's that amnesia ray?

Ireland never got out of second gear and it showed with some silly errors. They never seemed to feel the need to push on during the match until Wallace replaced O'Gara. Good result and a good comfortable start. Italy never pushed Ireland the way they usually try too. I almost wish they had Burgamasco as scrum half again, to at least give a good excuse for the poor display. But yeah, overall Ireland looked like they had many more gears they could have went through, while Italy were off colour (even for them).

Oh and btw McLean is Australian.

England vs Wales was a nightmare to watch, simply put. Both teams looked terrible, Wales line out was a mess their scrum half Cooper should have been replaced long before he eventually was. He gave the ball away easily, either from greed or foolishness. Just overall terrible performance. Wales looked nothing like the team they were last year. England, despite having so many big players, did nothing all match. It took Wales to go down to 14 men for England to try, and once Wales had 15 men, Wales looked likely to be the winners. By the performances of these two today, Ireland look in very good shape to retain.

I'm hoping for a good match tomorrow, Scotland are on the up and France are virtually an unknown quantity this year, we just don't know what France side will turn up.

P.S.

Loved the little documentary about Bill MacLaren just before the Ireland match.

Unless France lose against England, which let's be honest on current forms just isnt going to happen. Then France have the Grand Slam and the trophy in the bag, probably an expensive bag from a boutique shop.

Ireland have Triple-Crown hopes, which seems quite likely from my viewpoint. England could be holding out for an unexpected (in my eyes) third place. Even though they have been nothing but woeful the entire championship.

Wales have been the worst offenders of under performance this year. Starting to play offensive rugby will not get you a victory when you are already 15+ points down. It was simple luck and terrible decision making by Scotland a couple of weeks ago that allowed Wales to win their match. Yes the Welsh almost pipped France also, but that isn't going to happen everytime. It was like watching Ireland from a couple of years ago!

Scotland have been good in parts, poor in others but the word i'd use for them halfway through the championship is unlucky. To lose 3 players in one match and for the rest of the tournament is bound to be frustrating. Esepcially 3 influential players, but they have also shot themselves in the foot far too many times.

Italy have been impressive i feel, they havent been soundly beaten yet and have their scalp of Scotland to help boost themselves.

Quite.

England have been piss poor as a Union Side for six years now. It still pains me to see the team occasionally focus all on Johnny Wilkinson rather than working as an actual team.

Still it’s always aggravating to lose to one of the internal nations, especially because of how mouthy the micks had been in the run up to the game.

I'm glad it's got to the stage where that kind of tomfoolery is accepted in the intended, "just messing around" spirit. With so many topics on this board liable to cause unnecessary friction, it's good that sports (of all things) remains all about fun and interesting discussion.

Ireland 27-12 Wales!

Congrats to B.O.D. on reaching his century!

Croke Park deserved a better send off than that.

Anybody been keeping up with the Autumn Tests? England look very strong at the moment, which is bound to be good news during the lead up to the Six Nations. Scotland are playing as if they don't know eachother, pretty shocking for International level. Wales and Ireland look extremely inconsistant, though I feel Ireland's problem is that they tried and failed with the Leinster Full Half's. They can't seem to control the game.

The NZ England game last weekend was messy, too many errors from both sides. But I think England have a decent coach and some very good players right now, they just seem to be missing top class operators in a couple of key positions, specifically at hooker and centre.

I have to admit, I didn't think Johnson could do the job as coach with this England team, but their performance over Australia opened my mind a little. I don't think there are many class operaters at hooker atm in many countries, Especially in the Northern Hempisphere. Ireland keep swapping and never allow a consistency to the team and the Welsh hooker looks totally ineffective currently.

Yeah, England did a nice number on the Aussies. So did Munster, hilariously.

I don't know what Robby Deans is up to. They beat the All Blacks in HK, which, even though it was a meaningless match, is no mean feat. But they always seem to struggle when they tour up north.

Except if they play France....

What a weird Autumn series, think it just proves there's not much between the top sides (NZ excepted, even with their pretzel allergy)

I can't get too annoyed by the South Africa game, they really turned up and doled out a lesson to our youngsters, they'll all be better for it. Good to see Courtney Laws stepping up too, he is going to be an absolute monster.

In the French game Chabal looked like the only one who gave a fuck. New Zealand will be REALLY confident if they play France in the world cup...

These Autumn tests have left me truly confused on who is the best placed Home nation for the Six Nations.

England stood out for one or two games and then after the Australia game they really struggled to play like they did previously. They reverted back to their old selves again.

Ireland slowly started getting everything together again, and I was quite proud of the last 30 minutes of the New Zealand game, as it showed a real wekaness that New Zealand need to sort out and thats killing the ball in the rucks. If any other referee had seen it, they would have been penalised each and every time.

Anyone else get continually frustrated by the scrums? I can't remember a time when scrums took so much time out of a match.

They will be confident with their group it seems. For anyone who missed it, here is the World Cup groups

Pool A
New Zealand, France, Tonga, Canada, Japan

Pool B
Argentina, England, Scotland, Georgia, Romania

Pool C
Australia, Ireland, United States, Italy, Russia

Pool D
South Africa, Wales, Fiji, Somoa, Namibia

All the groups look fairly ok for the top countries, except for Pool D. Wales are going to struggle to get out of that group if these Autumn Tests are anything to go by.

dammit forgot they were in NZ's group, I like it when they play them in the knock out bit.

We play a drinking game where you imbibe at every scrum*, so no.


*tried this with rucks at the tail end of a game once. 30 phases later...

My friends and I are going to have to take that drinking game up during the Six Nations. Will be more entertaining now.

Jeez I couldn't imagine doing it with rucks, especially during the first 10 minutes of the Ireland vs New Zealand game.

France should meet England in the quarters with the winners possibly playing Australia, unless Ireland win their Pool. France wouldn't get New Zealand again til the final... I think.

Ouch.

Even if the ABs destroy France by 80 points in group play and then win the quarter and semi against SA and England by over 50 and France goes through to the from the other side of the draw barely scraping by ... New Zealand will never, ever, ever, EVER be confident playing France in a World Cup knock out game.

Not rushing out to get a tattoo then Bucho?

I love the World Cup, anything can happen, who would have thought Georgia would almost beat Ireland at the last one?

Don't remind me of that! Especially late on when Georgia almost got that try. I haven't been as nervous over a rugby match since Ireland's final Six Nation's match against Wales in 2009.

Just heard that the English RFU will be implementing a rule that you can't play for your country if you play out of England. What does anyone think of this?

Personally I'm not a big fan of this as it could possibly slow any progress the national team takes as some players who play in say France learn other styles that may be an advantage against opposing teams tactical wise.

I can understand why it's being done, but can't really see anything good from it in the long run.

Confused. On the surface it seems like it might be a good idea, but it'll be extremely frustrating if a superior player is overlooked because of geography.

Yeah I can see why they would want to do it, just that having such restrictions will possibly cost them one day. As atm I don't think there are any players abroad that England would want back in the side.

Though the players arranged it in their contracts with the French clubs to allow them to leave for Internationals. Wales and Scotland follow this rule aswell, and it hasn't exactly helped them out in recent years.


Could say that the Southern Hemisphere countries follow this aswell, but New Zealand allow Dan Carter off with it.

Was he in France playing rugby then? Thought he was just sitting on the beach...

Well he did play for a few games for them.. I'll let that count to get my point across!

It is a weird one. The NZRFU has had the same rule for years but that's because our players would flock to Europe where they're paid astronomical amounts compared to what they can earn playing at home. So playing for the ABs is the patriotic carrot on the stick which supposedly balances out the gold plated carrots of Europe.

I guess English players going to France, for example, might do so for a pay raise too, but surely it's not on the scale of NZ vs English player salaries.

I genuinely believe it's not all about the money for a lot of the players. If someone offered me a job in the South of France for similar pay I'd be packing my bags already. Wilkinson has spent most of his playing career in Newcastle for fucks sake. Apologies to any toons who might be around but you may as well be living on the North Pole.

Yeah, if you have the choice of similar pay with a much nicer lifestyle... Well, that can be quite an enticement.

By just quickly counting it up I believe there are just 4 English players not playing in England. So it's not even as if there is a mass flood of players leaving the Guiness Premiership!

To be honest I think the RFU have more important things to worry about other than making sure their players stay in England. I truly don't believe Martin Johnson is capable as head coach. Other than the Australia match they have been far too inconsistent to push for a Six nations or World Cup win.

Interesting, who would you say were more consistent than them out of the Six Nations teams this autumn?

They were all as woeful as each other I think. None of them were consistant at all. It was a terrible Autumn for all Home Nations. That's partly my point. No team looked as if they progressed at all.

Sure England did look a good team against the Aussie's, but so did Scotland against South Africa. Ireland were erratic as hell against everyone and only started play good rugby once O'Gara came on (I really don't rate Sexton other than his ability to kick well when going for penalties) Wales were the worst I've seen them in a very long time. Less said about France the better. In fact only maybe Italy came out of these Tests with any confidence.

Every team is going to have to try harder. But if they do, I can't really see this England team get past an Ireland team who have got it together, and the same in regards if France wake up. It will be tight, of course But I feel England will finish 3rd or 2nd.

Not sure I agree with the logic of that assessment (everyone was terrible, although England showed great potential in one game, therefore England will be 2nd or 3rd) but we can wait until the New Year and see for ourselves.

For me, France should be beatable, they've clearly not been quite right when they've faced England for years and have to come to Twickenham. Ireland's the tricky game but if England manage a win in Wales, by the time they get to Ireland they should be in good shape I think.

Finally, as a Lions fan I take great offence at the use of that name in polite company

Fair enough. My logic behind the England assessment was how backwards they went after the Australia game. The way the team performed following that win was confusing to me. They played out of their skin one match and then resorted back to their old ways again for the rest, they were well beaten by South Africa, who could have had countless more points if they were more clinical with their kicking.

England have a bright future, these players look excellent, I just don't think Johnson is upto taking them that next step. But thats just an outsider's viewpoint!

When I compared it to Ireland I had the feeling that Ireland were simply forgetting the basics, which slowly fixed itself within games. Other than a 5-10 minute blitz by New Zealand, Ireland played extremely well, they just forgot how to play the game right. While I saw what I felt was the same old England problems creep back into the team match after match, ill-discipline etc. Also I dont think the younger players will consistantly win games for england until next year when they have had more games with eachother. At least 5 are still very new to Test rugby. But that's just my view, and I can be bias sometimes sadly!

Wales are a mess at the minute, I fully expect them to finish below Scotland in the Six Nations. I have no idea what is going on with them, France always seem to find something during the Six Nations in recent years, so I never know what to think of them until the tournament has started. I agree that Ireland vs England is the big game this year though.

So who are you guys supporting in the rugger this weekend? My team's Wasps, if we manage a win against Glasgow (who pushed Munster close recently so won't be a walkover) then we'll have 19 points. A bonus point win and we're as good as through. Wasps will need to have Serge, Wurzel and Shawsy really firing at the breakdown to have a chance of this though.

 

Then we'll hammer Toulouse at home the week after :)

As  a Northern Irishman, I support Ulster and I have to say we are in the best shape we have been in many years, if anything in better shape since David Humphrey's was in his prime. Very tough win over Biarritz, but a win that puts us in a fantastic position to qualify for the quarter finals for what feels like the first time in yonks.  Ulster have been in an on/off form all season and it was sad to see some of our youth prospects leave for Connacht of all places. A good challenge in the Magners League and maybe a Semi-Final finish in the Heineken Cup will mark off a fantastic season for us. I havent looked too closely into the English leagues this season, am I missing anything great, as I am close to Leicester so could catch some of their games.

 

On a side note it has been interesting to note the lower leagues of English rugby union as of late due to a relative playing in the National 2 North league. Anyone look into their local/lower league teams?

Nothing is fucked here. Wasps to stuff Toulouse at home and Llanelli or Bath to do us a favour by crossing the channel and beating one of either Perpignan or Biaritz. All part of the grand plan!

 

I assumed you'd be Ulster Scott, they're playing great at the moment and I can see them usurping Munster as the neutral's Irish favourite (we can take it as read that nobody in their right mind would be supporting those public school ponces out of Dublin).

 

In the English league Northampton and Leicester are streets ahead of the rest, with Northampton supplying the more free flowing rugby. Exeter are everyone's favourite second team as they've turned up as Premiership new kids with the intention of kicking the shit out of other team's packs, and they've been successful at it!

 

 

 

Oh well at least Wasps stuffed Toulouse (in the last minute)

 

Could be a good game against Munster coming up if we can get passed Quins in the Amlin quarters