Successful Iraq Parliament Election

Got a warm fuzzy now? I guess that makes all the death and destruction you caused better okay, if you have a warm fuzzy now.

You can take any comments about how the guy who didn't want to see 600000 Iraqis killed doesn't care about Iraq but the apologist for conquering them does and put them where the sun shineth not because they're total bullshit. They were bullshit the last time you made them, they'll be bullshit the next time you post them, and they'll be bullshit when squid archeologists dig them up 20 million years from now.

You're right, they shouldn't vote for anything and just let chaos reign.

You do know it won't stay a democracy, right? So all that bloodshed was only for oil!

Does it actually matter whether or not it ll stay a democracy? Democracy, the system and concept, can be subverted into something horrible just as well as most other forms of government. For example, I am pretty sure that once a guy in Iraq figures out how to play the different ethnicities/religious groups correctly, and manage to convince them that they can basically vote each other out of power, its just the same as before. Look at iranian elections as a good example of how well democracy works.

The problem is that for some reason, the USA seems to believe that democracy is some sort of universal value. But, how do you explain the concept of democracy to someone who truly inherently believes that some people are worth more, should be worth more, than others? How do you tell someone they should let everyone decide who grew up and truly believes that his country belongs to Group A, and Group B is not meant to be here?

For democracy to work, a large percentage of a population has to accept a couple of basic values, among them a sense of equality, fairness, compromise and acceptance of differring viewpoints. Now, look how great that is going in the USA these days... and now imagine a culture that is basically running on fear, hatred and centuries of inequality.

No, I think the Iraq democracy is either going to have to change a lot, and soon, or its just an intermission for as long as armed soldiers are guarding it.
Which is probably as long as there are economical interests involved.

Look there is no question the entire Iraq War II was a horrific disaster. Does that mean we should just now write off the Iraqis as nothing more than vicious savages who drink each others blood?

Iraq lived under a Totalitarian regime for decades. Ethnic, class and religious tensions were subsumed under Saddam. Even if the US occupation had not been totally fucked up, I'm not sure the violence from all those hatreds could have been avoided.

I have no idea if Democracy can survive, much less thrive in Iraq, but this was a hopeful sign. Don't forget the Iraqis have had an occupying power in their country for 8 years: one that could not be beaten and left on it's own terms, one that showed some clear advantages of a Democratic System, and showed the good as well as the bad side of freedom. India didn't look like a promising case study in Democracy either, and even today has some serious sectarian violence, yet they have been a Democracy for quite a while now.

Also, don't think the Iraqis aren't very aware that they are still sitting on one of the best oil fields in the world. Recently the Iraqis cut a great deal with Western Oil producers, where BP Exxon et al get $2 per barrel of oil they product, and the Iraq Gov't get the rest. That is (I'm sure) a big part of this election as that money can be used to rebuild Iraq.

I agree the US has a real problem with this pre-conception. The focus is on the process and not the underlying moral principals.

Think is, in Islam there is a long tradition of Imans acting with direct feedback from their "constituents" but it wasn't labeled "Democracy" and didn't use the procedures we in the West associate with same (and to be fair it was a local level thing).

As for your comment about people thinking they are worth more than others vs seeing a universal right to life, freedom etc:

I think reasonable thinking human beings do figure this out. A lot of them immigrate to the US, Canada, UK etc. Now some are fighting to inculcate these values at home.

And FYI there are plenty of people in the USA who believe their group is better than everybody else. And not just the Tea baggers.

Voting or not means nothing to me. I do not care how Iraq runs itself. But I do take offense at apologists using the fact of those elections as justification for murdering hundreds of thousands, and you know perfectly well that's what Noah's all about.

I really doubt that Seabass said that.

Believe it. I was pissed. Don't remember why. Must've been important.

Just like Jon Stewart mentioned last night, you know you've lowered the bar on a successful election when only "a few" electoral candidates are assassinated.

So I guess we launch a Space Shuttle, slingshot around the Sun, go back in time to 2003, and Cock Punch George W Bush before he signs the Executive Order to invade Iraq?

And besides, this is all your fault Singer! You admitted it! Now go feel more guilty some more!

Personally, I'm glad they've started bouncing back after we dropped exploding liberty on them for 7 years. It's a new dawn for the Iraqis after we saved them from themselves and 600,000 of their country-people who were either evil or evil-in-waiting!

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED*


*this is a facetious post.

Jesus you, Singer and Seabass should get a room together, cry and listen to some Emo Music while Twilight plays on a continuous loop on your TV. Just don't cut yourselves too much ok?

Seriously, what is this guilt mongering in aid of? It's not like we've moved on to do the same thing somewhere.....oh

It's only brown people you guys killed! Fair price for democracy and cheap oil!

I'm still paying almost 3 dollars a gallon for gas. Cheap oil my ass.

Wait till you pay 10 bucks a gallon. If you still have a car.

Then we'll just have to go and find some more brown people to kill. Yay America!

I don't know what Emo music is. But I will scorn those who supported Bush and torture forever. Does being reminded of all the people dead because of Bush and all the stupid things Republicans say in his defense bother you?

That's exceptionally cheap, actually. But what makes you think the US conquered Iraq so American oil companies could sell you cheap gasoline? They want to sell you expensive gasoline. Iraq wasn't invaded and conquered for cheap oil, it was for the profits to be earned by selling expensive oil.

Not when there is basically zero public transportation in this country.

Yes, it is.

Damn it Seabass. We didn't kill all them America hating Mooslems and bring them Levi's, MTV and democracy enforced on our terms for no 3 dollars a gallon! That shit should be free because we're America and that's how we roll.

We kicked Panama's asses and got nifty hats. It's how this shit is supposed to work. Fire OBAMA!

SeaBass is pissed that you aren't wallowing in guilt and remorse. Don't you understand it's all about your feeeelllingss!

One of the Founding Fathers, George Jefferson, once said:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

What the hell?

The Living Hell of White Liberal Guilt!

You're really sort of oddly seizing on this "white liberal guilt" thing. I had no idea that openly regretting bloodthirsty actions taken in my country's name was akin to weepy liberal shame.

Who knew?

Ooh! Ooh! I wanna be Sean Connery! Here goes:

Patriotism is a virtue of the vicioushhh, according to Oscar Wilde.

Noah, everybody here wants Iraq to become a free and thriving country. We just have a hard time applauding the occasional (and still bloody) successes without thinking about the hard waste of human life that these "victories" cost.

Why quotes around victories? The Iraqis didn't pay enough to obtain this election? Or maybe you think they paid too much: that completely transforming your country must be a painless bloodless process to be valid? Or that, having invaded their country and deposed their leader, the US et al should have just pulled out immediately? Your statement is confused and confusing!

As I stated above, there is no question that the US truly Fucked Up in Iraq. Sadly, all the breast beating in the world will not bring a single one of those dead Iraqis (or Coalition soldiers, or journalists etc) back.

What we can and should do is 1) support the attempts by Iraqis to better themselves and their country and 2) learn from our mistakes in future conflicts.

Or current conflicts, like Afghanistan. How do you feel about our efforts there?

Because nobody asked us to free Iraq from anybody. Period.


Our efforts? What exactly is our effort in Afghanistan? What do we hope to achieve? What will it be unseemly for me to feel regret about next year?

Ah I see. I thought the victories in question belonged to the Iraqi people, not us. How about reading what the Iraqis think of events in their own country? I'd say the fact that so many people turned out to vote for the first time is in fact a hopeful sign.

What you or I think about it is irrelevant, except as it pertains to how we affect future elections by....voting!


Great questions! Obama initially stated we were there to find and destroy Al Quaqda and kill Osama Bin Laden. Then we were after the Taliban. Then we were nation building.

And my basic problem with your posts, Seabass etc in this thread is you seem to focus all this Emo remorse on past events rather than being concerned with the present (Afghanistan) and the (possible) near future (Iran)

EDITED TO ADD: I don't mean to suggest we should forget the Irag War II, but this "Oh God I can't feel any happiness that Iraqis are invested in making their country better because of what WE did! It's all about US" is a bit over the top

Well of course, it's not as if we have a well-established history of forgetting about the past before blundering into yet another mistake. But yeah, the cup is half-full. My mistake.

Oh gimme a goddamn break. This isn't about political touchy-feely bullshit.

^Read these posts again. You guys are arguing that anyone who sees the glass half full (as you put it) in Iraq must therefore support Blood Thirsty, Torturin', Murderin" George W Bush. Well that's Bullshit.

That's nonsense. We're not "arguing" anything. We're simply saying that yet another bloody, body-count-ridden election in Iraq is nothing to fucking celebrate.

Not that I speak for anyone but myself, mind you...

This is Election #2, right? I mean Saddam could have been holding elections every year, but this is the second election where anything resembling a real "will of the people" is actually manifesting itself. In a country where violence has been the norm, tyranny has been the norm. I have to think that is significant. I could be wrong. I hope I'm not.

And several electoral candidates were assassinated.

ETA: You're a good sport, Cylon.

1. Panama hats are not made in Panama, but in Ecuador.

2. The US invasion of Panama, unlike Iraq (so far), was a success at all levels.

Don't know about 'anyone', but this Noah guy does. And you know full well that the American Right will continue to try to make a silk purse of Operation Pig's Ear forever. Bush apologists did so 7 years ago, they'll do so today, they'll do it tomorrow. I can't imagine the American Right being concerned about the Iraqi people for their own sake because they're the same people who spent months lying about how killing hundreds of thousands of them is justified.

Fuck - it's like I've never been away! Iraq is not self-determined. It is a protectorate. Colonial-style.

Noah - in this ever changing world we live in, it's reassuring to know that - like a frozen Frank Poole drifting endlessly through eternity - there is someone who we can ALWAYS rely on to be your, genuine, archetypal - throwback.

I salute you.

Was that just before he shot Archie Bunker through the head with a shotgun?

It's instructive that the initial report describes Falluja as "synonymous with the cradle of the insurgency", rather than the city the United States Army ENCIRCLED, fired upon UNARMED PROTESTORS (the reason for the initial Falluja uprising), prevented ALL males under the age of 45 from leaving, and then attempted to MURDER all of them - Grozny-style - through the use of carpet bombing, artillery etc (a direct violation of just about every human rights treaty drawn up).

And let's not get STARTED on the number of birth defects in Falluja attributed to the US's use of depleted uranium.

I can never understand that, uranium is one of the most toxic substances known to man. Uranium use should fall under chemical warfare. I guess the fact, that most people seem to think, that it the radiation in the uranium, that kills people, but it the chemical toxicity, that kill people. You might as well be using nerve gas on the poor fuckers, it would at least be faster.

Dude, you need the depleted uranium shells to penetrate the insurgents heavy armor.