Gone With The Wind (1939)

That EVIL CARPETBAGGUH always kills me. And Christ, Scarlett shoots a dude in the face.

I've been thinking over what you said about Scarlett being best buds with Plainview. I can't disagree: Scarlett O'Hara is Daniel Plainview filtered through a Disney Princess lens. She doesn't even have an "I'm finished" moment. Her story ends with an "I'ma keep comin', world! Bettuh watch out!" type of message. It's been a while, does she even like anyone besides her close, immediate family? I'm pretty sure she just wants Ashley cuz she can't have him.

I remember thinking she was like Civil War Paris Hilton, but if what you're saying is true Paris is an all-round better person.

That's the great trick about Gone. It tries to get you to root for a really unpleasant and devious lead character. After spending four hours with this chick, you're just begging for someone to cuss her out. Rhett delivers.

It's been a really really long time since I've seen this, like well over 20 years (maybe even closer to 25 come to think of it), but my main memories of it is that Scarlett really fucking annoyed me because she was such an obviously horrible, horrible person and that Rhett as played by Clarke Gable was the suavest, smoothest mans-man I'd come across in classic movies up to that point. From his very first scene when he's behind the couch to his parting line as he finally fucks Scarlett off once and for all, Gable fucking made that film for me as a lad.

I would've felt worse for her if she'd, y'know, shown that she gave a crap about her kid before she died. As is, she was more worried about fitting into her old corset again. Once the kid bites it, though, it becomes a "Oh Misery is ME!" party for her. I would actively hate this movie if it didn't have Rhett telling her to fuck off at the end of the film.

I have this weird disconnect with Gone With the Wind: I admire the film, the production value, the acting, the score, the everything. I see it as a real turning point in cinema, one that still stands tall. But holy fuckabees, I cannot abide Scarlett O'Hara. Indomitable spirit reads more like conniving golddigger in this story. Rath is right on with the Plainview comparison, but what I find odd is while I find Daniel just as vile, so does, in a way, There Will Be Blood itself. Gone With the Wind, save for Rhett's final moment, almost seems to champion Scarlett, paints her as a role model. Yeah, she'll never go hungry again is nice and all, but the trail of miserable people she leaves in her self-centered wake hardly seems like a worthy counter-balance. I don't have a problem with her being such a (cover your ears Zooey) cunt, she is an intriguing character, but I can't applaud her, and I can't shake the feeling the movie wants me to.

It's a film I never question its greatness, but I'll be damned if I can stomach it more than twice a decade.

What I like about the film is how you can either love Scarlett or hate her. The film doesn't tip its hand on how you're supposed to feel about her. I think it's the saving grace. Gable's Rhett is pretty awesome in his way, but I think in the scheme of this thing, it's better than other large scale films like Ben-Hur or Titanic for that ambiguity.

De Havilland too.

And that's about as admirable as it gets. Whatever lengths it goes to to give war a human dimension is undermined by it's framing of the specific war depicted in the film within the 'moonlight and magnolias' mythos. It's the key to the unlikable elements of Scarlett that people always point out. Andre's right, the film does the audience a supreme justice by playing her in a flat, uncompromising light, allowng folks to come to a decision on her on their own. However, the film's handling of the cultural dimension of the sectional clash before, during and after the war clearly assigns white and black hats.


On the last part, absolutely agreed. It's a lesson almost any epic film made up until around the mid 80s will teach. Having hordes of real honest-to-God humans on screen will always look better than computer generated clones.

I'm sure we can all agree tho that Gable is the fucking man in this picture.

Man, when isn't he?

Just picked this up on Blu-Ray and it looks fantastic.

One scene that always gets me is when Rhett locks himself in his daughter's bedroom with her dead body. Butler is a complete wreck and he refuses to bury her because she was so afraid of the dark. Chokes me up every time Mammy describes the scene.

And I can't get behind Scarlett being a great heroine when she keeps pining away for that douchebag, Ashley Wilkes. Her infatuation of him really bugs the crap out of me.

And the made for TV sequel is complete crap, by the way.

Ben-Hur is pretty ambiguous too. You're all "Yeah! Violent revenge!" and then...

Her performance is amazing, and I'm not surprised to learn she fought for the role. De Havilland had a unique ablity to appear beautiful or dowdy depending solely upon her bearing, and she's the best thing about Part 2.

The haters! The haters!

Nah, I'm kidding.
Anyways, love this movie. Love it so much. It's....something of a cultural milestone - not so much about the actual 'moonlight and magnolias' attitude of the period, but the perception of the people who grew up on those sort of stories - and to be honest, it is one of the great female protagonists of the screen. Honestly, what comparable movie has a chick and an unlikeable one at that, at the front and center?

On that note, perhaps this comes as being a chick, or watching other chick flicks, I'd argue that Scarlett is as bound by conventions of the society that marriage, and marriage well is her only main source of wealth and security.

Why does Vivien Leigh and Gone with the Wind work when Liz Taylor and Cleopatra doesn't?

And why is Clark Gable the fucking man?

To copy and paste what I wrote in another thread about this movie recently:

I stand by what I said. Sorry, but it wasn't for me. I'm not being a contrarian here or trolling. The fact that Scarlett was so loathsome was a real turn-off for me.

At least I can admit that indeed Rhett Butler was one smooth suave S.O.B.

I think you answered the first question with the second. Chemistry.

No answer for the why of Gable. He shouldn't have happened, but he did.

Way out west there was this fella... fella I wanna tell ya about. Fella by the name of William Clark Gable. At least that was the handle his loving parents gave him, but he never had much use for it himself. Mr. Gable, he called himself "The Man". Now, "Man" - that's a name no one would self-apply where I come from. But then there was a lot about the Man that didn't make a whole lot of sense. And a lot about where he lived, likewise. But then again, maybe that's why I found the place so darned interestin'. They call Los Angeles the "City Of Angels." I didn't find it to be that, exactly. But I'll allow there are some nice folks there. 'Course I can't say I've seen London, and I ain't never been to France. And I ain't never seen no queen in her damned undies, so the feller says. But I'll tell you what - after seeing Los Angeles, and this here story I'm about to unfold, well, I guess I seen somethin' every bit as stupefyin' as you'd see in any of them other places. And in English, too. So I can die with a smile on my face, without feelin' like the good Lord gypped me. Now this here story I'm about to unfold took place back in the late '30s - just about the time of our conflict with Adolf and the Natzis. I only mention it because sometimes there's a man... I won't say a hero, 'cause, what's a hero? But sometimes, there's a man. And I'm talkin' about the Man here. Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place. He fits right in there. And that's the Man, in Los Angeles.

<3 Tyres. As someone who just saw the Big Lebowski,...That was amazing.

But Cleopatra had Burton, and Burton's no slouch either.

True, but while Gone With The Wind had its share of production problems, it didn't compare to Cleopatra. Besides Taylor being her diva self, she fell ill early and that definitely screwed things up (to the point that some originally cast people left as she recovered), she had her diva relationship with Burton, and so on and so forth. However, there was also problems with the original director leaving the movie, a script with massive rewrites, producers changing, etc. With that, I'm surprised that the movie turned out to not be as bad as it could have been.

So, I guess it was good fortune that Gone With The Wind turned out to be beloved by so many, even if I'm not one of those people. Casting certainly played a big part in it, and the two main leads are great.

Re: Gone With The Wind (1939)

Gone With The Wind is kind of great. Nevermind the fact that Leigh was certifiable. She nails Scarlett. Just dominates the character. She hits those childlike notes, but then has such bravado when necessary.

But the absolute wonder of GWTW both in front of and behind the camera is De Havilland. In many ways the actress WAS Melanie. Handling a room full of egos at her own expense.


Also, is there any greater ass then Ashley?

I also suspect that a key to liking this film is a nice appreciation of Southern culture. The traditional "Yankee," for lack of a better term, seems to have a great deal more issues with the film. In fact I don't think I ever made a delineation between "Yankee" and "southerner" until I talked about this movie with a friend not raised in the south.

Re: Gone With The Wind (1939)

Scarlett is absolutely bound by conventions of her time. The book makes that more explicit. I think she has three husbands? And a kid by each one. Lady be popping out babies left and right and not giving a damn what happens to them. It's kind of a bold take on motherhood. I mean it took seventy years to give us another completely sympathetic horrible mom (Trucker).

Sorry I love me some Scarlett. She's such a bastard.

Thing is, I don't think Howard plays him as an ass. He barely plays him as anything, really. The stories go that he felt he was too old for the part, and that Margaret Mitchell's preferred casting was Randolph Scott. That I'd like to have seen-- he or Henry Fonda could have delivered an Ashley with some guts to him.

I've come to believe that the "wispiness" of the Ashely character was well suited to what his job was. Scarlett has this blistering hunger for the guy but at NO TIME does he ever actually do anything to, you know, really deserve it. I just think that Scarlett projects all the "what should have beens" onto him and he's left looking around going "Wait...I'm worth all this hassle why?"

Honestly, that's about the only way I can reconcile having Rhett Butler by your side and wanting Ashley instead.

Well, it always seemed that though Scarlett was all fire and brimstone and manipulative awesomeness, she always seemed to want to be the kind of woman that Melanie/her mother was.

For her, Ashley was sort of the embodiment of all that a gentleman should be, all she wanted to be but couldn't (and wouldn't be). All that embodied the "South" and the pseudo Knight In Shining Armor. And to be honest, Ashley did lead her around with the talks of honor and what not. Man is a master at that sort of non-comittal manipulation.

Rhett even states that he and Scarlett are exactly alike, and I imagine that Scarlett had some serious issues with admitting that to herself. Granted, Rhett was giving himself too little credit, as he at several points proved that he was in fact was a gentleman, and something of a romantic (Going on to fight in the war at the last minute to claim some sort of honor, his appeal to the Old Guard and insistence on a certain behavior for Bonnie's sake, etc). Scarlett is so consumed by her narrowsighted quest for financial security that she misses all that and makes no effort to maintain her reputation as Rhett does.

And Melanie does sort of rock. There might be a soft and pleasant exterior, but definitely an iron core. I wonder if her admiration from Scarlett extends from, not so much a genteel admiration as stated, but because they are in fact incredibly alike....Except Melanie has mastered the conventions of the time, and Scarlett's....well...something akin to an unbound flame?

That was corny. Carry on.

Thanks for that link to the interview. Fantastic stuff, especially her insights on Melanie.

These screentests are delightful. It's great to watch the shift from the very good Goddard to the perfect Leigh.

And that bit where Goddard did Scarlett and Mammy was fun. Reminded me of oral interp from back in high school.

And uh...ditto everything Wayward and teledork said. Way to so succinctly define the character.

Yay! So what chick-oriented film can we talk about next?

It Happened One Night would fit the Gable lovefest you guys seem to have going.

Is Blonde Venus too obscure?

It's been a while since I saw it last but I seem to remember it being pretty lady centric.

I remember posting the following thoughts in the politics forum when people were (justifiably) up in arms about Bob McDonnell (Governor of VA, and a craven douchebag in his spare time) declaring April National Confederacy month. Before the quote, I may as well add that this is a film that I almost constantly think about and have my own brief theory about which I'll explain after the quote.

Essentially, I think that the much discussed, and in some cases reviled, iconography of the film, which seems to be racist and to glorify the antebellum South while paying tribute to the virtues of the post war South is actually using those tropes to present how that world appears to people like Scarlett. This is her movie, and in some sense this is how she wants the world to be, and what she wants is a sham. Someone said that Scarlett is a product of her environment, and this is likely true, but I would go so far as to say that she is also the queen of it and one of its strongest arbiters. Scarlett never realizes that her life has been a sham because she likes the sham. She has put her sense of self into the world of myth so strongly that she cannot pull herself away from it. Rhett is able to do this after the loss of his daughter: he mourns and leaves the myth behind. Scarlett uses a sham mourning period to "recharge" her beliefs which will continue to crumble around her.

Really, I think the film doesn't end on a triumphant note for Scarlett, but rather a desperate one.

Re: Gone With The Wind (1939)

This is kind of a fascinating read on the film and the cumulative effect of this thread is my now burning need to rewatch this movie.

I always found that one of Scarlett's best and worst qualities was her complete faith in herself. It gave her strength but it also allowed her to very easily delude herself.