The Pope was intimately involved in covering up abuse

I dunno, Catholicism has survived bad popes before.

You don't have to go much further back than the last 70 years to see that, no matter what heinous shit the church concocts, gets behind, quietly condones or flat out ignores, they'll never ever be called on it.

One can only hope....

They should seriously burn the Pope at the stake... Not too up on my papal history, but I don't think they've done that before.

Seriously, though, he'll be the Pope until he has a heart attack whilst getting head from a five year old.

^ I'm pretty sure at least one Pope was burned at the stake but I'm too lazy to look it up.

I was raised a Catholic but have been pretty apathetic to the Church, but I can't take any joy from this unfolding horror. It's one think to have perverts and criminals as part of the Church Hierarchy: every population has a percentage of those: it's just statistics. But when large parts of the organization knowingly devote themselves to protecting these creatures and helping perpetuate their crimes, a whole new level is reached.

You hate Jews, you hate Catholics, or are you just parroting Bill Maher now, Kate?

It's common knowledge that Joseph Ratzinger and his entire family were members of the Nazi Party. The best his defenders can do is claim he was an "unenthusiastic" Nazi. I sort of find it hard to believe the guy could dodge the whole Nazi stigma successfully but succumb to the knowledge that he was the ringleader of the pederasty coverup.

As the head of the Vatican state, he has legal immunity from criminal prosecution. As the ringleader of the coverup, he has a whole lot of ammo on most of the leaders who might come after him. As the Pope, he's pretty much above the reach of other church authorities. He's getting away with this.

Yeah, most people just end up blaming shit on the vast gay conspiracy.

They're a bunch of scum bags. But like others have said, the Catholic Church has a lot of pr and money to do damage control. I mean, they are a brainwashing organization. I was brought up in their schools and looking back am horrified by the nonsense they teach kids. Luckily it seems like most of us become atheists.

Haha what, he was like "yeah, Jews, get into that railcar, you know, if ya want to" (Shrugs) "I don't give a shit"

They say he rarely attended meetings and merely loaded mortar for the anti-aircraft artillery. Crazy me, if I were a kid in Nazi Germany with a strong religious faith, I'd, you know, not view deferring school as worse than joining the fucking Hitler Youth.

I look forward to the peaceful, utopian future that awaits us all when we get rid of all these evil, evil Religions:



Kill them all, IN THE NAME OF ALMIGHTY SCIENCE!

Kidding aside, yes, this is dire as hell (i was catholic raised and taught, but I'm not an atheist), but the Church, like pretty much every huge, powerful and loaded organization out there has corruption on some or many levels.

Also, I'm going to counter Maher with another, funnier and classier act:

Penn: Since coming to power, the Chinese government have introduced to Tibet electricity, running water, secular education, and better health standards, so maybe life is better on the ground there. Of course they also have thrown millions in labor camps and prisons, stomped out as much free speech as possible, have death squads run amok throughout the country, and they have that whole fucked up Communist bullshit. But if you ask the Dalai Lama, His Holiness will tell you that he must return to power for the good of his people. In this case, "good" may translate into his people living in squalor and his government condoning slavery. Remember, the lesser of two evils… is still evil. And the enemy of my enemy… is not my friend.

Also, there was that whole "Join, or get shoot/sent to the camps" thing going on.
Also, you guy might remember that for a good, communist chunk of the world, the guy below was the fucking devil:



EDIT: Before, some wise-ass (or you know who) tries to say I¿m supporting this horrible, horrible chain of events, i do not; however, i do not enjoy seeing the entire condemnation and slander of and essential, beloved part of my beliefs based on these cases.
Personally, I believe the church's hope for a better future lays in its secular members gaining more power and the need (desperate, i say) for a Third Vatican Council; the church needs to get on with the times and fully embrace the tolerance message its founder preached....it will always be flawed just as humans are flawed, but an overhaul is needed.

Most of our religious iconography depicts a man being executed. If the threat of death is enough to lead you to do evil shit, you're a pretty shitty Christian.

She'll have to work on her insufferable self-satisfied smirk.

I'd say that if the threat of death is enough to lead you to do evil shit, you're a pretty shitty human being regardless of your religion, political beliefs and etc.
Also, you might remember that there were several German soldiers and officers who were fucked between being drafted into the Nazi party or refuse to defend their country.
Also, can anyone here actually say, in all honesty, that they would die for their personal beliefs if the time ever comes?
I cant answer that question; and i think not a single person alive should ever be in that situation.

I REALLY don't want to defend him, but there were a lot of children in Nazi Germany that were forced to be Hitler Youth.

If forced to choose between betraying my faith and dying, I'd choose death. I think most people who take Christianity seriously are the same way. Bayard Rustin sums it up nicely: "We are willing to be crushed, but we are not willing to crush others."

Even worse, one of his cousins as taken away and executed because he had Down's Syndrome by the Nazis.
Is his involvement with the Nazis questionable? No more, no less than the nazi scientists who defected, for example.
Is it a situation that can be judged fairly? It is not, just like the many cases of forced conscription during any regime.

Then you are nobler person than I am. I do not know if my faith/beliefs is that strong, but if I ever find myself in that situation, I'll find out.

No-one's saying the guy should be hauled up on warcrimes charges. But being elected the leader of the most powerful church in the world? Yeah, being a member of the Hitler Youth under hazy circumstances should probably cast a pall over that.

Before we defend this popes reasons for going along with the Hitler youth its worth remembering at the same time the previous pope was helping children escape the Nazi's and studying underground to join the priesthood...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II

Ken, you poor deluded fool. That guy was a mole for the Stalinists!

I always love how extreme the opinions are on the politics forum. Either the US is the beacon of freedom for the entire world, or the source of all evil on the planet. There is no middle ground.

Same for religion here. When PK advocates or condemns something, there's a knee jerk resistance to it. I wonder why?

Because ultimatly people like to pile on someone they think is weaker than themselves, to make them feel better.

It's not PK. It's the fact that the majority of the free-thinking, enlightened Chewers on this board are every bit as smug and judgmental as the religious people they decry. It doesn't mesh properly with the world view they claim to espouse. I say this as someone who is in philosophical agreement with the atheists.

Call me when the International League Of Atheists makes a habit out of protecting child-abusers and condemning unwed mothers to Hell. Smug and judgemental? You're damn right I stand in judgement of those who shrug their shoulders at this kind of shit.

Quoted for truth.
I couldnt be bothered less by someone having different beliefs than I (well, except if said beliefs are inmoral and based on intolerance and hate), but its the smugness that really bothers me...I shouldnt get looked upon as if i were crazy just because i believe in God.
Then again, I do commit smugness when it comes to Scientology.

It's not that you believe in God, it's that you are proud to identify yourself as a member of a specific religious denomination whose higher-ups knowingly and repeatedly conceal child abuse. Given the Catholic church's longstanding policy of ignoring any criticisms levelled against it I would have hoped that most decent right-thinking membrs would have abandoned it by now. As an organisation it is unwilling to change, so please stop with the "well, we're trying to change it from the inside" spiel. You are a self-identified member of a paedophile-concealing church. Please don't be surprised that people have a problem with this.

The point is way over there, guy.

Right next to the atrocities commited by communist and socialist anti religion dictatorships too.
It actually frightens me just how on the money South Park was on this; religion is barely one of the reasons humans bicker and fight among themselves.
Again, The Catholic Church is in desperate need of a transition and renovation period.
Also, as with many cases, dont condemn the whole because of the few.

Those people weren't killed in the name of atheism, for Christ's sake. There's no anti-religion textbook out there which tells its readers who is and isn't a sinner.

It's been in need of this for literally decades and nothing has changed. What are you, as a Catholic, doing to bring it about?

But this isn't like condemning an ethnicity or a race based on stereotypes. You CHOOSE to belong to this religion, despite its continued unpleasantness. You CHOOSE to remain a part of an organisation whose leaders actively dislike homosexuality, whose leaders protect child abusers, whose leaders condemn millions of people based on consensual things that they do within the confines of their own home. No-one's forcing you to be a Catholic - don't play the victim card.

For your information, I didnt CHOOSE to be a catholic, I ws born into it, i was baptized as a child and I CHOOSE to be confirmed at age 18; I may not be a practicing catholic anymore, but I still helf many of its moral and spiritual beliefs close to my heart.
No one's playing the victim card; just like its the duty/right of any citizen to question its goverment (BTW, i dont remember much american choosing not to be americans anymore during its worse and more evil administrations), its the duty of every catholic to question and even disagree with the church leaders/authorities; whole new orders and movements in the church have been born because of this, an there will happen again.
And Socialist/Communist dictatorships ARE anti religious and pro ateism; they seek to erradicate religion and replace it with worshipping of the state.

So you did choose to carry on as a Catholic when you hit 18.

And are going to join these orders? Or just pop in to halfheartedly defend the Catholic church every time it does something heinous? And the American thing is beyond asinine. You're comparing being the citizen of a country with a member of an organised religion? Not to mention the many Americans who have left the country, or those that conscientiously objected during the Vietnam days, or the ones that marched en masse against Bush. Where are the hordes of Catholics outside the Vatican right now, protesting this BS being done in their name?

I would argue that they are anti *opposing* religions. You said it yourself, seek the worshipping of the state/dictator. This puts those kind of atrocity-bringers into the religion category for me. The faith and unquestioning loyalty is the problem...the object of that faith is interchangeable. I would have the same problems with people placing that unquestioning faith in science (a la the South Park ep).

yes, i choose, but i was not "brainwashed" into it, as you seemed to slyly infer back there.
And there IS upheavel in the church over this even if its not an horde or a publicised protest or the media circus everyone wants to see.
When I was younger and did attend mass I attended the mass and joined the congregation that suited me to my personal beliefs; I did not join any congregations that did not support gay civil rights, the use of condoms or a blind eye to priest abuse.
I also did not atten mass if the acting priest and I did not agree on some core issues either.
You are calling for the condemnation of an entire system of beliefs and lifestyle based on the scandal of their leaders.

Ok, here's where I get confused -- isn't this flying in the face of apostolic succession and papal supremacy?

If your upper orders are holy (and more so as you get to the top), then isn't their complicity and resultant sin/responsibility greater?

yes, the sin/responsibility is indeed a grave issue here; but what i do not agree is with the sinless being tainted or scaked along with the sinful.
You cant condeem Islam as a whole because of jihadists or anti-zionits, can you?
Id the Pope went loco and declared "murder is alright, if you have a good enough reason" I would sure as hell not obey the guy, just as I dont support the chucrh anti condom and anti gay civil union stance.
Like i said, this is a dire and grave situation for the church that puts in light its need for self improvement and modernization.

This is why I don't talk about my religious leanings. I don't like being lumped in with the idiotic gay-hating Christians that want science gone from schools.

A wise choice; may i should follow your example.

Also, ive just realized; shouldnt this thread be in the religion section?

I'm proud of it, and I'll say what I believe if asked, but I don't want to be shit on here by people I've been friendly towards.

I think Maher is a very smart and occasionally funny man, but his smugness is irritating.

Ah yes, the calls for Vatican III: This Time We'll At Least Try And Catch Up With The 20th Century, Honest

Can't wait.

Unless they were saved by the power of swing music apparently. Swing heil!

I think it's also a fact that much of the atheist snark around these parts gets treated as some sort of 'atheist gospel' (HAR!) and attributed to "the majority of free-thinking, enlightened Chewers".

Ah, but that way can also lead to suicide by record.

It's interesting that this point has come up on the boards as we've been having the exact same debate here in the Melbourne as we just had one of the largest atheist conventions in this town just last weekend, complete with epic Richard Dawkins lecture. Religious leaders and religious media commentators have come out in the media this week and accused atheists of 'arrogance' in the wake of the incredible popularity the conference generated.

Long story short, there's a letter in my paper today that sums it up quite nicely personally (and I freely admit I'm posting this as an agnostic rather than an atheist)...

Man, so much to comment on this thread that I had to think about posting anything more, or just "bake in the hate"

First off, Catholics, especially in the US, have always had an "arms length" relationship with the Pope. Gary Wills wrote a neat little book called "Why I am a Catholic" in which he discusses this, then gleefully expounds on the various Popes and their failings. Most American Catholics listen to the Pope expound on, say Birth Control, then happily go out and buy condoms for example.

If you go back to the early days of Christianity, there was a movement called the Donatists who felt that if, say a Bishop was found to have committed some heinous crime, then by the fact of that crime he could not in fact be considered a Bishop. Problem was (and this became Orthodoxy), if you believe that, what about all the Baptisms, Weddings, Confirmations etc that said Bishop presided over? Does that mean they are all illegitimate?

So there is this concept that the Papacy, (or Priesthood in general) is an "office" that is larger than any individual who happens to occupy that position at any time.

Second, to say that Communism, which explicitly stated that there is no God and any organized religion is a lie, is somehow not "real Atheism" is some fucking ironic! The Communist philosophy requires that ALL rivals to The State must be destroyed (at which point the State magically withers away).