RED CLIFF International Version

Well, this film annoyed me in alot of ways, but I'm not going to dwell on that too heavily.

I've been a Woo fan since highschool, and it's cool to see him make another film with Tony Leung even if it's pointlessly over long* and basically an ad for Chinese communism.

However, once I accepted the fact that it was a propaganda film I was able to enjoy it on some levels. Woo can do action, even if his story was ham-stringed by jingoistic nationalism... and yes, the action was pretty cool

Back in highschool, a friend of mine was obsessed with the game DYNASTY WARRIORS. I'd play with him and it was alot of fun. I got a kick out of the fact that the game featured real people from Chinese histor, but gave them giant swords and claws and magic powers. One guy who was even in our world history text book was in the game, complete with a giant serrated metal fan. I thought it would be hilarious if there was a DYNASTY WARRIORS for US history where Washington carried a 9 foot long sword.

Anyway, once I got that Woo was approaching the combat as "Dynasty Warriors The Movie", I was able to enjoy it a bit more. Characters would single handedly kill hundreds of people, and I guess that must be what attracted Woo to take the money from the Chinese to make it. There was a clear disconnect from the super serious tone of the script and how Woo was shooting things. I very much got a 'Uncle Ko' vibe from some of the silly "ride high" stuff with the mentally challenged soccer player at Cao Cao's base

It's just a shame that Woo can't make gangster films in China anymore. You see, gangsters and corruption are no longer fit subjects for film in Mao's glorious republic of freedom and happiness. China has no corruption, duh! Woo was in HK making movies that were essentially all about fear of reunification with the main land... but I guess now if he wishes to keep making films in Mandarin, he'll have to restrict his efforts to the sand box of China's ridiculously boring history.*

All the same, for some of the running time at least it was worth while**

Any movie that has a character say a line like "The winds changed?! Impossible!" with a straight face is a movie that's sort of hard to hate.

PS I love the fact that so many of the outdoor scenes have CGI matte painted backgrounds, even though what the matte paintings show are real world locations in China. Why the need for FX then? Because the air in china is so polluted the image would look awful. Check out "THE PAINTED VEIL" for shots of similar locations to where RED CLIFF is supposed to take place. In PV, the air is so smog choked that mountains a half mile away are barely visible.

*It's nearly five hours long. That's completely retarded, sorry. The Chi-Com's sense of self importance knows no limits

*As cool as some of the battle scenes were, I couldn't help but think that Alexander would role his eyes at those generals and their tactics. "Let's tie all our ships together, that's a great idea!"... ::facepalm::. Alexander would have done what he did at Tyre and just made a peninsula out of rocks, ditching the boats entirely.

**I need to see the US version. I'd imagine it's much better. There is no reason to make a five hour movie.


EDIT: Apparently since you now are not allowed to be a Chinese movie star without selling your soul to the forces of darkness, (Ahem, Mr Chan) I guess maybe it's a good thing that CYF stayed away.


"Star in your ode to Chinese nationalism? Not on your life, Old Friend.."

Mr Fleed,

I am glad you enjoyed the rather extreme length. To me, it felt like things were being needlessly lengthened in order to make the film seem more epic or important

It did have it's moments though


PS The CHE film is entirely too long as well

PPS I saw PRECIOUS recently and thought that while there were some good elements, it was pretty manipulative and definitely is over rated

Well, there are some good parts but it's almost FIVE HOURS LONG. You just have to keep that in mind

PS As for Woo, you need to see his HK work ASAP!

I'd watch them in this order:

1) HARD BOILED
2) THE KILLER
3) A BETTER TOMORROW
3) A BETTER TOMORROW 2

After that you could go with Bullet in the Head, which I'm sure other Chewers will tell you is his best film (I disagree)

They just war with themselves and the mongols all the time. Their entire history is just one big struggle for unification , then dissolution followed by more unification.

At least in Western History we went out and conquered strange new lands and peoples.

So yea, it bores me.

PS I loved THE MONGOL. Mongol history is great. I'm talking about actual Chinese history, not the history of every place that modern day PRC pretends is part of China

PPS: I have to deal with Maoists in my day to day life, so frankly I have pretty limited patience for that kind of stuff these days.

Platoon was obviously diametrically opposed to the conservative take on Vietnam.

In Red Cliff characters regularly spout little red bookisms as if there were casual dialog.
I know all about Chinese history. Just because I find it boring does not mean that I am uneducated. I just happen to think that most of their antics are pretty yawn inducing. After Megas Alexandros conquered Arabia (which most scholars say was his next target, had he not been poisoned), many argue that he would have turned his sights on China*. I happen to believe in alternate realities, and I'm sure there exists a reality where the Lord of Asia cut a bloody path through the middle kingdom. In that reality, I do not find China boring.

* Some also argue that he didn't know China existed, but I have a hard time believing that.
Of course not. But that doesn't mean that it's not interesting.


EDIT: You also seem to be ignoring the fact I had alot of nice things to say about the film and flat out stated that I "don't hold a grudge" agaisnt it

I'd find one but I don't know the next time I'm going to sit through the film. It was five hours long
I was off by 100 years*. Doesn't really change the fact that I think Woo sold out making a film that glorifies the principals of a regime that drove his family from their home and blew up monasteries and churches alike.

It's just my opinion. Agreement is not compulsory.
Again, I deal with Maoists in my day to day life. I have little tolerance for their nonsense at this point. I said I enjoyed it though and so I am not sure what the problem is


*A pretty small error, in the grand scheme of things!

Hahahahahahahahahhaha... ah hahahaha... hah ha ha.....

Oh, sorry. Forgive me for being snide. I think that rather than my lack of familiarity with Chinese history, the problem here is your apparent total ignorance about Alexander and what he was able to achieve in his 32 years. I'm literally at a loss as to where to start debunking your post, it's just that crammed full of 'FAIL'.

So, where to begin...

Well let's start with your assertion that Did you just make that up? Off the top of your head? Cause that's really creative!

The reality of course is that Alexander III of Macedon had the most technologically advanced army on the face of the earth. They had catapults and cross bows hundreds of years before such things became the norm in combat. The weapons fielded by his army were superior to those in the possession of even his mightiest enemies.

Now you make your most absurd claim of all and suggest that the tactics of the Lord of Asia were less advanced than those of the Chinese. Forgetting for a moment that having NEVER LOST A BATTLE is a pretty good indication of a deft tactical mind, your claim is baseless and silly. "That's how a phalanx gets destroyed!"... ummm... you are aware of the Bactrian and Sogdian campaigns in modern day Afghanistan? Alexander ran into all the problems you foresee. The "swarm and destroy" tactics of the enemy horsemen were the undoing of the isolated phalanx, but overall the Greek army was more than able to adapt to the totally new style of combat. Alexander conquered Afghanistan in three years, and killed 20% of it's population (by some estimates). Despite their maneuverability, the home filed advantage, and intimate knowledge of the culture and terrain, the Afghans were brought to heel and his war moved on to India.
I'm really not sure you know anything about Alexander's war. Alexander had a *huge* navy that saw much combat and many victories. He had no problem sailing ships up and down the Nile, so I doubt the Yangtze would have posed some special challenge. Most of China is not on a coast anyway, so their supposed naval mastery is a moot point. Alexander would have crossed into China from India. He was right at their back door. This wasn't some Korean or Japanese invasion where naval might was an important factor. Even if he had for some reason decided to fight by the sea, Alexander had the ships and wealth* to totally blockade their coast and starve their population into submission.
I'm starting to feel sorry for you here! Tell me please, who was the "king of Afghanistan" before Alexander invaded? If you answered "Darius" you're dead wrong. Persia claimed Afghanistan as part of it's empire, but it was a labyrinth of local tribes and warlords who had the power. With Darius dead Alexander had to contend with uncounted foes and feudal kingdoms in that region. (FYI, THE AFGHAN CAMPAIGN by Pressfield is an excellent book on this subject)

1) He won anyway

2) He'd defeat people, and offer them the chance to keep their position of power and join his army and empire. That way he could pit one warlord against there traditional enemy with the promise that when the war was done that warlord would be more powerful than ever before. It was most effective.

Do you think Chinese warlords are any different? It took him three years, the longest, bloodiest stretch of his life, but in the end Afghanistan was conquered. Sorry. C

China would have fallen the same way
Yes yes... Porus... Porus gave Alexander no trouble (and he was not a minor king, he was quite powerful in the region). Alexander's troops mutinied and that threw him for a loop*, but the actual battle was not particularly challenging. Alexander was in the process of redirecting the river Indus by over 30 miles so he wouldn't have to cross a river under arrow fire when he decided that he was bored of waiting and just attacked across the river anyway. Alexander, by himself, climbed up a 50 foot wall ahead of his entire army. He took an arrow in the lung and the rest of his army got annoyed at Porus and decided to defeat him.

Then, Alexander incorporated Porus and his kingdom into his empire and left him in place as a regent.
Uh, yeah, King Pyrrhus was not even born till four years after Alexander died. There was no such thing as a Pyrrhic Victory when Alexander was fighting.

Plus, Pyrrhic victory? You mean the cost of subduing China would have been to great to bear? Alexander had vast rooms filled with gold and over a fourth of the globes population under his command. There were people in Greece just begging to go fight but they were turned down because Alexander's army was already too huge. He had an entire empire of resources to throw at the Chinese. He could have burned each and ever last building in China to the ground and still had too much money with not enough to spend it on, and too many troops left with not enough battles to fight.



As for your crude comment, had I been alive at the time I'd not want to be involved romantically with Alexander. You'd probably end up on someone's enemies list. Just look at what happened to Roxanne after he died.

Instead I like to imagine that I'd be a country girl from Pella and have grown up hearing of Alexander, son of the great Phillip. When my mom told me of Phillips assassination, I'm sure I'd have cried.

As I turned 15 Alexander would have just finished unifying Greece and would have set off with his army to conquer the Persian empire.

My BF would be one of Alexander's Calvary Companions ($$$$$) and when Alexander got to Babylon my BF would have sounded the all clear and have sent for me by courier . I'd excitedly pack, and say my good byes to family and friends as I set out for the most remarkable journey anyone could imagine. I'd have traveled in luxury , carried by slaves and eating only the finest foods as I first sailed to Alexandria Egypt and then followed along the army's rout of conquest till I reached Babylon. When I got there my BF would introduce me to all his friends and everyone would be impressed by me and like me instantly. My BF and I would chill out there for a while and then he would leave to go fight in Afghanistan when Alexander and the army moved out. I'd be sad but not that sad, cause I could hang out in the coolest place on the planet. I'd stick around in Babylon for a few years (perhaps having an affair with a handsome Persian?) , enjoying the good life. Then once the Afghans are laid low my BF would send me a message saying it was safe to rejoin the expedition if I liked. I'd say good bye to my new Persian friends and ride off to live in super fancy tents and stuff with Roxanne and everyone, getting to see history made (safely from the sidelines) as the supply train marches ever eastward and down into India

Thats what I like to imagine anyway.

*He had more gold than anyone on the planet. His empire was, proportionately, richer than any before or since.

**For the record I understand why they did it, they'd not really signed up for a war to the literal ends of the earth, but yeah, I also totally support his decision to stone them all to death. It was war time.

I suggested that Alexander would have laughed at the "let's tie all the boats together!" tactics on display in this film. Someone chose to insult Megas Alexandros and I needed to rally to his defense since he died over 2330 years ago and can no longer set the record straight himself.

Why was it funny? He had an accomplished navy.

Interesting take, Hadjimurad. I agree with much of what you say, I guess I just personally have little patience for people for the Chinese at this point in my life. I know that the nationalism in RED CLIFF is really no more virulent than the content of, say, TRANSFORMERS 2, but I just have to draw the line somewhere. There is a value in seeing how China views itself, but watching them toot their own horn about their history is a bit more than I can take right now. I can't help but think that the Yangtze river dolphin and I would share a hearty laugh at the way they call their country "the middle kingdom".

Anyway, you do make good points, I just have a low tolerance for China. I will shut up now though about it and let people make up their own minds


As for ALEXANDER OF MACEDON, that is one of the biographies I've yet to read. I'll have to check it out. I've read Robin Lane Fox's ALEXANDER THE GREAT and a few others, along with some of the original histories. I've even read all of THE ROMANCE OF ALEXANDER which is an awesome account from a few hundred years after he lived and it chronicles his many adventures. Apparently he spent time on the bottom of the sea, living in a diving bell and hanging out with mermaids It's fanciful, and most likely more myth than history, but fun.