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The MR. PLINKETT & RED LETTER MEDIA Discussion - Page 8

post #351 of 1422
4/5/10 at 2:19pm
This thread is now all about the architecture jokes.
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post #352 of 1422
4/5/10 at 2:27pm
Which makes sense. Lucas' characters feel like they were written by Ayn Rand.
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post #353 of 1422
4/5/10 at 2:29pm
Who sounds like a star wars character... The circle is complete


Sorry...
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post #354 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
I've never been in the prequel means dramatic inertia camp.
Yeah we knew how it vaguely had to end but there was so much we didn't.
I'm not saying that it makes up for the fact that it is so bland. What I am saying, is that it is hard to write in that way. Your right, there is a lot we didn't know, which is why it seemed so informative. Did it have to be that way? No. But to deny that there wasn't a predestined finish to the prequels isn't accurate either. It's like the difference between reading a map and taking the journey. Lucas shows us the map, instead of taking us on the trip to show us the sites.

Anakin becomes Darth Vader, the twins are born, the Jedi are scattered are not "vague" endings. The how and why are what is vague. The story of the prequels unfolds as if we are some invisible droid just following around random events along a common thread.

I agree that more interesting (or more depth filled) characters would have added greatly to the tragedy. But just adding cool characters wouldn't have done that. He already had a perfect trifecta of characters (Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme). But they were just left at face value for the most part.
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post #355 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:33pm
I thought it was pretty great and insightful. The Yoda montage with the direct contradictions is my favorite part.

I do wish he would quit with the dumb serial killer character. This guy is way too good at what he does to ruin it with that unfunny, tired crap.
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post #356 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:34pm
Oh yeah, totally with you on that, just pointing out that the predestined ending didn't have to feel so perfunctory. It could and should have been thrilling and immersive. And I'm in no way saying that cool characters should have done the heavy lifting work that our main trio should have done.

What gets me is that for this kind of movie, with the inherent coolness of the starwars universe, this should have been a slam dunk. I really don't think it is that hard.
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post #357 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
What gets me is that for this kind of movie, with the inherent coolness of the starwars universe, this should have been a slam dunk. I really don't think it is that hard.
Totally agree!
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post #358 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
I'm not saying that it makes up for the fact that it is so bland. What I am saying, is that it is hard to write in that way. Your right, there is a lot we didn't know, which is why it seemed so informative.
Exactly what do we learn from the prequels that we didn't already know, or couldn't have deduced ourselves? The prequels are exhibit A for the argument that sometimes stories are more effective when they're left offscreen.
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post #359 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:42pm
If anything, these films could have been better than the originals. There was a chance for him to grow with the audience. Maybe that wasn't realistic but I think he made a mistake by targetting the next gen of kids so much. As Plinkett pointed out, it's not as if kids only identify with kids.

Prankster, I think judging by the execution of the prequels that's a fair argument, but it's totally overlooking the fact that they really didn't need to suck in the ways that they do.
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post #360 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
Exactly what do we learn from the prequels that we didn't already know, or couldn't have deduced ourselves? The prequels are exhibit A for the argument that sometimes stories are more effective when they're left offscreen.
Sure, we know the whats, but the whys and hows could have been dealt with more effectively. We should have had a couple of new characters we got to follow along with Obi-Wan and Anakin, characters whose fates we don't know, so there'd be some kind of dramatic tension throughout the films. Maybe Jar Jar was intended to be that (there's a lot of argument out there that he's meant to be the Luke character in TPM, the fish-out-of-water audience POV), but nobody embraced him.
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post #361 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
What gets me is that for this kind of movie, with the inherent coolness of the starwars universe, this should have been a slam dunk. I really don't think it is that hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
Totally agree!
This is something people just love to say. Try actually writing a screenplay, then get back to us.

People don't write bad screenplays on purpose. The best writers in Hollywood have turned out bad screenplays.

Yes, it is that hard.
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post #362 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Sure, we know the whats, but the whys and hows could have been dealt with more effectively. We should have had a couple of new characters we got to follow along with Obi-Wan and Anakin, characters whose fates we don't know, so there'd be some kind of dramatic tension throughout the films. Maybe Jar Jar was intended to be that (there's a lot of argument out there that he's meant to be the Luke character in TPM, the fish-out-of-water audience POV), but nobody embraced him.
Yeah, although I'd argue that JarJar was a train wreck of an idea from the get-go. We certainly didn't need the droids again, or any other cameos.

I'd still argue that the idea of Anakin turning to the darkside because of his fears about the future is a very good one. Sadly for all the reasons Plinkett and millions have gone into it's a lame duck because of the characterisation and storytelling that surrounds it. More than any other level, Lucas' failure is at the script level.

Imagine he'd stuck with the Jedi as Samurai types rather than the creepy, lifeless monks. You could easily have gotten some cool characters out of them.
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post #363 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:54pm
Actually, Jar-Jar was a great idea, and he worked. He was there to draw in the kids, and the kids loved him. Sure, we hated him, and rightfully so, but he wasn't there for us.
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post #364 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Sure, we know the whats, but the whys and hows could have been dealt with more effectively. We should have had a couple of new characters we got to follow along with Obi-Wan and Anakin, characters whose fates we don't know, so there'd be some kind of dramatic tension throughout the films. Maybe Jar Jar was intended to be that (there's a lot of argument out there that he's meant to be the Luke character in TPM, the fish-out-of-water audience POV), but nobody embraced him.
I think the one part of the prequels that shows where Lucas' heart lay was Padme's funeral. The Gungans, Padme's mother and father, the new queen. All that seems to be stuff Lucas wanted to expound upon but after seeing the new stuff get rejected by most of his audience, he ended up trying to give the audience what he thought they wanted and failing miserably.

Making him the one who gives emergency pwoers to Palpatine seems to be the last bone he throws Jar Jar in terms of depth.
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post #365 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Maybe Jar Jar was intended to be that (there's a lot of argument out there that he's meant to be the Luke character in TPM, the fish-out-of-water audience POV)
Jesus christ, seriously? That seems like too terrible and misguided an idea to be true, even by the standards of prequels Lucas.
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post #366 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
This is something people just love to say. Try actually writing a screenplay, then get back to us.

People don't write bad screenplays on purpose. The best writers in Hollywood have turned out bad screenplays.

Yes, it is that hard.
Actually, while I haven't written anything you'll have seen yet that will hopefully be about to change so I do appreciate how difficult it is, I just think with the amount of talented writers who are out there a successful prequel trilogy(at least on the page) should have been fairly manageable. I take your point about bad screenplays, and you're right about Jar Jar, but I'd argue that it was a poor choice to include such a madcap character, but sure, he appealed to the kids.
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post #367 of 1422
4/5/10 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
This is something people just love to say. Try actually writing a screenplay, then get back to us.

People don't write bad screenplays on purpose. The best writers in Hollywood have turned out bad screenplays.

Yes, it is that hard.
True, it is exceedingly difficult to bang out a good screenplay on your own, first try (or even tenth or eleventh try). But being open to criticism and other writer's revisions helps a lot. And considering Lucas probably could have availed himself of any active writer in Hollywood, yes it really should have been a slam dunk, for all intents and purposes.
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post #368 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Floyd View Post
True, it is exceedingly difficult to bang out a good screenplay on your own, first try (or even tenth or eleventh try). But being open to criticism and other writer's revisions helps a lot. And considering Lucas probably could have availed himself of any active writer in Hollywood, yes it really should have been a slam dunk, for all intents and purposes.
Exactly. I've just finished re-writing another Director's script and he was incredibly open to collaboration. It makes a massive difference.
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post #369 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
I take your point about bad screenplays, and you're right about Jar Jar, but I'd argue that it was a poor choice to include such a madcap character, but sure, he appealed to the kids.
If there was any kind of mass appeal for Jar Jar, why was his role gradually reduced to nothing over the course of the Prequels?
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post #370 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:14pm
I think George realized the howler he'd unleashed.
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post #371 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:15pm
I think also, as these reviews point out, Lucas was coming at the screenplay from the wrong perspective in context of what had come before, or the construction of set pieces. As Plinkett did with the escape from Naboo or the assassination attempt here, it becomes evident that Lucas has no connection to the character, or the reality of the situation. It's about what looks neat, or outdoes what came before (in AotC cases, The Fifth Element). Film-making ain't easy, but there's something Lucas did here that can be seen in a number of blockbusters of late, where the film is built around certain ideas and elements, and the human factor is seemingly the last thing anyone's concerned about.
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post #372 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:20pm
Yeah, and I think one of the best ways the review pointed it out was in the character reversal stuff. I'd never thought about it but he's right, if anything, Anakin should have been the one diving out the window onto that assassin droid.

It should have all come from the characters, and I'argue the one thing people wanted to see was Anakin and Obi-Wan as great friends, but he did two things in TPM that crippled that angle from the get-go: make Anakin a kid, which handicapped the love story too as well effectively wasting an episode as we then have to re-connect with a second actor come episode 2, but also when he ditched the Obi-Wan character he originally had and switched all his characteristics and scenes with Qui-Gon, maybe the most (only?) likable character in the film (prequel trilogy). I think he got caught up with ideas rather than what characters could people get behind and root for through this new saga.

I see in the other thread, that LFL have announced a new SW comedy. Words fail me...
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post #373 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:21pm
Honestly I think his whole mindset the entire time was to make sure that he was creating things that were massively appealing across the board (in the most superficial ways) in order to sell toys.

Jar Jar didn't sell so many toys.
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post #374 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
Yeah, and I think one of the best ways the review pointed it out was in the character reversal stuff. I'd never thought about it but he's right, if anything, Anakin should have been the one diving out the window onto that assassin droid.
That is one of those moments I kinda wanted to hug that lunatic. His every criticism of that assassination attempt is a series of consecutive bullseyes.
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post #375 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:27pm
I think, the fact that so many years after their release people are still talking about the trainwreck shows that all he really had to achieve to succeed was non-suckage. And he undershot. I mean, look how much money the franchise still makes. Imagine if the prequels had been actually good. Oh well, I think no matter what he protests there's no doubt there will be more movies at some point, in which case once can only pray he hands over the reins to someone who really gets it. Sadly I reckon he wouldn't do that.

Justin, the only idiotic part I'd thought of before was the ludicrousness of the shape-shifter. He pointed out so many more it wasn't true, highlights being the robots fixing the window the next day and going back earlier, the decoy apologising for failing...
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post #376 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:28pm
If there's anything these reviews have shown, it's how glaring so many of the problems are at the story level. Something he doesn't touch on, but I wish he would, is that all three of the prequels are just a few more drafts away from working--none more frustratingly than Attack of the Clones. The elements are there--adventure, mystery, intrigue, the Clone Wars kicking into full gear, Anakin's first temptation with the Dark Side--but every single plot point is handled in a completely elementary way.
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post #377 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
This is something people just love to say. Try actually writing a screenplay, then get back to us.

People don't write bad screenplays on purpose. The best writers in Hollywood have turned out bad screenplays.

Yes, it is that hard.
No I already admitted that it is hard to write, especially going back and giving background and story to a decidedly destined story. Again, I know that it is hard to write. I don't like doing it.

But, he already had the audience, he had the characters created, he knew their beginning and end. He had many things to make it "easier". It was just the filler and fluff that didn't work. But perhaps its the opposite, and having so many defined aspects of the structure made it more difficult to stay in pre-created realms.
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post #378 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post
If there's anything these reviews have shown, it's how glaring so many of the problems are at the story level. Something he doesn't touch on, but I wish he would, is that all three of the prequels are just a few more drafts away from working--none more frustratingly than Attack of the Clones. The elements are there--adventure, mystery, intrigue, the Clone Wars kicking into full gear, Anakin's first temptation with the Dark Side--but every single plot point is handled in a completely elementary way.
Exactly!!!! It's like he finished his first draft and because he was self-financing thought these are great. He's George so no-one tells him maybe he's a good three or four drafts from refining the basic ideas into something good. If you look at the early drafts for ANH and Jedi its the same. George's drafts read like the prequels. Back then he had to listen to others more so it wasn't such a problem (although even when he has Kasdan you can see his greater influence coming to bear). It's so frustrating. It's also a great lesson in the importance of surrounding yourself with good people who are prepared to challenge you).

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that had the exact scripts been specced or turned in by unknown writers they would have stood no chance. Although I think you could also argue that seeing as he made the success in the first place he can do what he damn well pleases.

Is there any other property out there where its creator seems to have so little grasp of what made the original brand connect? Or are we all just jaded geeks? Kids seem to love the movies equally. I wonder how they'll look on them when they grow up...

It is staggering just how flawed they are on a very basic level though, in ways I'd never even considered before.
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post #379 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:39pm
His best point? AOTC should have been Episode I.
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post #380 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:43pm
I've sometimes thought you just start at the arena, with all of them about to be fed to the beasts but that would probably be too far.

Another bullseye was the total lack of logic in sending Anakin and Padme together back to Naboo. Quite apart from anything else if he was going to steal anything from Empire, surely he should have just had Anakin and Padme on the run from the assassins and had the whole romance flourish amidst danger and tension.
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post #381 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:43pm
The first film I saw in a theater was Star Wars. I bought a laserdisc player partly so I could see the OT in widescreen. When the reissues happened I went, and had friends who would sleep out in front of the theaters before the reissues. I bought a ticket to see Romeo and Juliet in the hopes of seeing the Star Wars reissue trailer. I spent all night with the dial up going to watch the first TPM trailer.

Though I did not hate The Phantom Menace, both Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith showed that one of the heroes of my youth was dead set on ruining his legacy. You mix that with the internet, and the fact that there are still the faithful who at the time were defending this garbage, and you can see that people wanted to believe in Santa Claus upon release (http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37439), but getting over how bad the Prequel trilogy is good, but it also points out that there is still this love and passion for the original films. We care, and the yoda montage in this review shows how everything we thought this whole thing was about was turned into garbage.
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post #382 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:47pm
I think that's what's sad on pretty every level. I've been a long time apologist (I'm a glass-half full kind of guy) and there are bits I enjoy, but when you see that Yoda montage it's so well-put. And it's sad that these movies didn't live up to what they would have liked and it's sad that I still care! It's not as if I can do anything about it!

Now when Patton Oswalt gets his hands on that time machine maybe...

Actually there is, obviously but you know what I'm saying...
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post #383 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:47pm
Wow, there's a lot of people really in love with Attack of the Clones in that thread Dre linked to.

I really liked the review, aside from the serial killer stuff, but I appreciate them as general film theory than anything else. I'm not so hung up on Star Wars as the rest of you but it's fascinating analysis anyways.
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post #384 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
Wow, there's a lot of people really in love with Attack of the Clones in that thread Dre linked to.

I really liked the review, aside from the serial killer stuff, but I appreciate them as general film theory than anything else. I'm not so hung up on Star Wars as the rest of you but it's fascinating analysis anyways.
yeah, even forgetting the Star Wars angle, its actually pretty instructive as well as entertaining.
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post #385 of 1422
4/5/10 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
Is there any other property out there where its creator seems to have so little grasp of what made the original brand connect?
Richard Kelly's director's cut of Donnie Darko comes to mind. And the Broccolis seemed to really lose sight of why James Bond was popular for a while there.
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post #386 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
I've been a long time apologist (I'm a glass-half full kind of guy) and there are bits I enjoy, but when you see that Yoda montage it's so well-put.
There is one interesting bit of trivia relating to the idea that Lucas never really "got" Yoda in the first place: apparently he had Yoda already dead in Jedi and merely appear as a ghost cameo (maybe because the puppet was such a hassle?) Richard Marquand insisted on bringing Yoda and Dagobah back for at least one full scene with Luke. I think it was the last time Lucas let Marquand make any major decisions like that.
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post #387 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
Richard Kelly's director's cut of Donnie Darko comes to mind. And the Broccolis seemed to really lose sight of why James Bond was popular for a while there.
I remember watching Donnie Darko's commentary and thinking what the Hell are you talking about?!

At least Bond got back on track (although I reckon they need another readjustment after Solace).

Alex, that wouldn't be surprising.

I guess, film is a collaborative medium and while I think it's important for one person to have a driving vision, I think it's also unrealistic to expect that one person to have all the good ideas. Everyone involved in the creative process should be prepared to fight their corner passionately while also allowing themselves the benefit of other opinions. It means leaving ego at the door but so long as it benefits the final product it can only be a good thing.
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post #388 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:02pm
And, sadly, I've got to bring up Crystal Skull.
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post #389 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
Is there any other property out there where its creator seems to have so little grasp of what made the original brand connect?
Gene Roddenberry. He seemed to be on a roll with TOS when he had a good team of writers to work with. But years later he lost his touch and got himself too wrapped up with the Utopian idea that he forgot how to tell a good story. TMP and TNG Season 1 are pretty much Star Wars prequel level. Star Trek wouldn't get good again until folks like Nick Meyer, Michael Piller, Ira Behr and Ron Moore took creative control, plus it helped when the latter two were fans of TOS and understood what made the stories work: Characters.
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post #390 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
And, sadly, I've got to bring up Crystal Skull.
I blame David Koepp... ...jk
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post #391 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
And, sadly, I've got to bring up Crystal Skull.
I don't think it's even anywhere near as close to getting it wrong as the prequels, even if it does have some glaring WHY?!?!?! moments.

Told you I was an apologist!

Ahem...

At this point, does anyone hold out any hope for the Live Action Series? I've always felt that if George hands it over to people who do get it then it will turn out OK. That's pretty much what has happened with the Clone Wars which for what it is is pretty good. More often that not it begs the question, why didn't they do this in the prequels?
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post #392 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:16pm
Goddamn, Dre, that thread is awful. You're practically the first person in it to say the emperor has no clothes.

I didn't post in it, but I would have been with all the cheerleaders, I suppose. Time and maturity changes things.
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post #393 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperjones View Post
At this point, does anyone hold out any hope for the Live Action Series? I've always felt that if George hands it over to people who do get it then it will turn out OK. That's pretty much what has happened with the Clone Wars which for what it is is pretty good. More often that not it begs the question, why didn't they do this in the prequels?
I kinda gave up on that. Heck I actually had an instinct that show wouldn't happen. It was supposed to premiere four years ago.
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post #394 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:19pm
God that AOTC thread! I was so kind to it. And Dickson!
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post #395 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post
I kinda gave up on that. Heck I actually had an instinct that show wouldn't happen. It was supposed to premiere four years ago.
I'm still holding out some hope but George keeps on taking it up as something really different and something nobody would expect from Star Wars, which is always kind off scary. McCallum keeps on dropping hints about the Sopranos in space... Whatever, big guy...
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post #396 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:21pm
I got no excuses, I was drinking the blue milk back then.
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post #397 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
God that AOTC thread! I was so kind to it. And Dickson!
John Williams and pretty(er) flashy stuff will do wonders to your brain sometimes.

I think I didn't exactly hate the experience at the time simply because I was so giddy at the lack of Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd.

ETA: Aaaaah! Holy Shit, I just clicked over to that thread. *Puts on stern parent/Judge Smails voice*... DICKSON!!!!!??? My god, sir. I hope you flagellated yourself for a few years over that opening salvo.
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post #398 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
John Williams and pretty(er) flashy stuff will do wonders to your brain sometimes.

I think I didn't exactly hate the experience at the time simply because I was so giddy at the lack of Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd.

ETA: Aaaaah! Holy Shit, I just clicked over to that thread. *Puts on stern parent/Judge Smails voice*... DICKSON!!!!!??? My god, sir. I hope you flagellated yourself for a few years over that opening salvo.
I think also that the points Plinkett nails are actually really easy not to even consider on a first viewing. The inconsistencies are so bat-shit crazy but accepted within the film so you don't even notice. It's also testament to how much goodwill George had to squander.
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post #399 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc. View Post
There is one interesting bit of trivia relating to the idea that Lucas never really "got" Yoda in the first place: apparently he had Yoda already dead in Jedi and merely appear as a ghost cameo (maybe because the puppet was such a hassle?) Richard Marquand insisted on bringing Yoda and Dagobah back for at least one full scene with Luke. I think it was the last time Lucas let Marquand make any major decisions like that.
Sadly, that scene is still a dud. It accomplishes nothing but to confirm that Vader is Luke's father. And come on, we all knew that already, right? Did anybody think Vader was lying? The only new information comes after Yoda's death, when Luke talks to Obi-Ghost, and we get that bullshit speech about "point of view" to cover the fact that Lucas didn't know where the story was going to go when he wrote Kenobi's original speech.
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post #400 of 1422
4/5/10 at 6:39pm
It's repetitive, but let's not pretend any red blooded human with an attachment to the little green bastard doesn't get hit right in the heart watching him just wither away in the space of minutes.
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