The MR. PLINKETT & RED LETTER MEDIA Discussion - Page 14

I've heard this a few times myself. What's the thinking here? Any merit to it?

Michael Kaminski, aka the guy who wrote The Secret History of Star Wars, said there's little merit to that theory.

Lucas didn't want to spend any money remastering the original versions, just take our money ya see, which is the exact reason I didn't buy them. Actually, I managed to sell off my dvd's of the six movies recently. RLM's latest review only makes me happier I did. The only thing that might make me consider buying the prequels on bd would be the inclusion of Phatom Menace's theatrical version via seamless branching.

Failing to include a 1080p OOT (original original trilogy .... sad we need to call it that) on the older movies' bd sets would make the entire decision much easier for me.

Something I wanted to say earlier is that while it would've been much better to have the prequels written by other people and farmed out to three capable directors,* at least Episode I was shot in cinemascope like the originals. Digital cinematography, when you think about it, just doesn't lend itself to the gritty universe Star Wars inhabits. Watching Indy IV in all of its grainy, anamorphic splendor kinda rubbed it in even more.

*What Marvel is doing with their self-financed movies is exactly what Lucas should have done with the prequels, but the past is the past.

I agree with most of that Mike, especially on TPM's theatrical. The DVD cut is pretty much the Special Edition of that flick with unnecessary additions (taxi ride, extra sequences in the pod race) that made the pace even worse. I think I've seen the DVD cut less than the theatrical (I still have the Widescreen VHS, I don't think I popped that in my VCR since before ROTS release). TPM shot on actual film, the balancing of practical effects/CGI (heck the CGI looks better here than in AOTC, what's up with that?), no overkill on bluescreen sets sort of makes this film the middleground between the original trilogy and the rest of the prequels in a sense (or you can give that to ROTJ-minus CGI).

AOTC is probably the ugliest looking Star Wars film. 90% of sets being blue/greenscreen, horrible CGI for its day, overkill on the dolly/zoom effects (especially those done on post-production), the digital video look is even worse. It's the toughest SW film for me to watch.

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-...s-george-lucas

But I'm sure he's cool with you guys.

I agree with everything he's typed. It's time to just let it go... No matter how much it sucks.

That's pretty much how I feel about Plinkett's misguided crusade against the Trek movies, most of which came out before TPM. Then again, I did name my firstborn child Worf Roddenberry Noonien, so take that with a grain of salt.

Isn't it just as easy to ignore Plinkett, et al, as it is to ignore the Prequels? Probably easier, in fact. There's no Plinkett Pavilion dropped smack-dab in the middle of Comic-Con, is there?

It would be easy to ignore Plinkett... if there was only one of him. But he's everywhere (just not as funny). That's what Drew's protesting.

"Hey, who wants to talk about Alfred Hitch-"
"THE PREQUELS SUCK."
"Goddammit."

Me, I like the Prequels and I like Plinkett 'cause he's entertaining. But I get where Drew's coming from, the Star Wars hate is bizzare and ubiquitous. And, at this point, pathetic. Plinkett presents it in a fun way, but it's still the same old shit (minus some interesting details he finds). To put the kind of work he puts into these videos, especially the latest, represents a real hate. He went to a lot of trouble to piss on Lucas. Drew's just saying that level of hate is weird.

It's not everywhere. It's not anywhere except certain corners of the vast internet. It's super easy to ignore if you actually want to.

Many Star Wars fans feel like their loyalty to the Star Wars product have been taken advantage of. Whether by multiple strategic DVD releases or whatever. You can argue that being a completest isn't necessary but the fact is that some people are completests and they feel like George Lucas knows and takes full advantage of that.

It's one thing to take advantage, it's another thing to exploit it with inferior product. Couple that with Lucas obviously caring much less about the Star Wars universe than many of these fans and you have a perfect recipe for scorn. They feel like their only retaliation is to yell as loud as they can that George Lucas' product sucks on the off chance Lucas might catch an echo ricocheting off of one of the mountains surrounding Skywalker Ranch some day.

I actually think "it's like poetry" that the most interesting and entertaining thing that's come from the Star Wars universe in the last 27 years has been the prequel criticisms.

Let'em bitch. It's all the only retaliation they have.

This isn't a dig at Drew but...I think whining about whining is REALLY weird.

Of course, now I might be whining about whining about whining, so what do I know?

But I think Plinkett successfully tapped into a vein that's far more fertile than just "some interesting details he finds." If he can find a way to keep the serial killer/film nerd routine from going stale, I think he might represent a new form of enter-pinion or criti-shtick (or whatever you want to call it) that's actually very worthwhile. I mean, anyone who looks at Plinkett and thinks he's just bitching about the same old stuff under the annoying guise of a fanboy-gone-Dahmer is missing the point. He's commenting on some pretty fundamental storytelling issues that Hollywood (and Lucas) seem to have increasingly lost their control over the last decade.

Plinkett's reviews have less to do with the specific geek-oriented films he's using as test cases and more to do with Storytelling 101. The fact that he actually lands quite a few genuine laughs along the way is just icing on the cake.

Just re-watched the TPM review and it's really much more focused than the ATOC one. Also, the captive hooker in the black dress is the same actress.

Well yes, it is definitely not, say, at the top of the Empire State Building. Why would you assume I was only talking about geek niches of the internet? That would be stupid!

I hope Plinkett doesn't keep up with this particular character. He's pushing things as it is. Y'know what would be great? If Plinkett's Episode III takes place inside prison and ends with his execution. Seems the natural conclusion to the "story".

I see what you did here... Ha ha ha ha

I have no sympathy for these people, nor do they deserve any. Lucas is not taking advantage of them. He's offering a product and they're willingly purchasing it. It's that simple. If they don't like the product, they shouldn't be putting down cash for it. I feel the same way about people who bitch about double dipping. If you know a better edition is coming, then don't buy the first one, you asshat.

This is all just symptomatic of the larger problem with American consumer culture, though. The same culture that wants to blame McDonald's when they get fat from eating too many hamburgers. It's obviously too much to ask that they show some self-discipline; it's up to everybody else to babysit them. Not buying is not an option.

wow!!

Good God. He should hang for that.

There's a whole other thread in the analysis of over-the-top Lord of the Rings worship, though.

I recently rewatched the LOTR. They hold up like fuck. I haven't watched AotC in five years, and I plan to never watch it again. Life being reasonably short.

Having got into it with Drew for posting something innocuous about this review, this definitely has gotten under his skin. For me it's the fun of good criticism, where the peices add up to something. When you put together all the pieces of what is being said, you see why a lot of Hollywood movies suck.

To that point, I think we're in an era of contact high cinema. When this run of superhero movies ends, a lot of films that had their praises sung (like the first Spider-Man, etc.) are not going to age particularly well.

But Clones is better than Fellowship!

Kidding. Even I'm not that much of a Lucas mark.

I'm just kind of surprised there's a strong Star Wars fandom anymore. It's so weird, considering how stale and uninteresting the series has become to everyone besides the die-hards. The guiding force of the franchise has lost his shit. That must have stung for people to recognize, and there are those who, sadly, don't recognize it.
The real reason to continue talking about how much the prequel trilogy sucks is that it's an object lesson in how artistic genius can be corrupted and molded into soul-less avarice. The enormous tragedy is that there is so much untapped potential in the expansive universe Lucas created, but all of these imaginative places, creatures, and ideas are in the hands of morons.

Totally agree with that, and Spider-man being a prime example of one that not is going to be held up as a pillar of the genre even though it really kicked off the whole phenomenon. I do think Spider-man 2 will age very gracefully, though, dated effects and all.

Or, you know, kids just like the movies. One or the other.

Well, surely all the ways in which that can be said has been said, right? All that's left is echoes. Drew may even agree with that comment, he just seems to think it's been more than adequately stated. Besides, it's not as if there's a dearth of current movies it could be applied to.

Is Star Wars really even all that popular with kids these days? Certainly not like it was when I was little, is it? My niece and nephew were the perfect age for Star Wars when the prequels came out and neither one of them could have given a damn. They were into Pokemon, YuGiOh, and stuff like that. My niece became an X-Men fan thanks to the movies. Never saw either one of them buy or play with a single piece of Star Wars merchandise. I know there are still tons of Star Wars crap on store shelves but how popular is it really with kids today? I think I've seen more kids wearing John Cena t-shirts than anything Star Wars related.

I don't know, I noticed a lot of kids into TPM when it first came out, and I have little cousins who are way into the Clone Wars cartoons. It's still going pretty strong. You can't really compare it to the unrepeatable mania of the original trilogy, but frankly it's almost certainly more popular now than it was when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s, when it was furthest off the cultural radar.

I still think Pirates of the Carribbean is going to be the Star Wars of the 00s for a lot of kids.

I thought so too ... until I saw the Red Letter Media reviews.

This isn't really proof of anything, but on my last visit to Disneyland you only had to see the crowds around the Pirates of the Caribbean ride versus the Star Tours ride.

This was before the Jack Sparrow revamp and still more kids flocked to Pirates, whereas it was mostly the older crowd going to the Star Wars ride.

Considering some of the hyperbole Drew has thrown at movies over the years I think he has very little room to criticize this guy.

Yes. This. I'm the last guy to defend fanboy entitlement, and I have no sympathy for people who buy every new edition of Star Wars that comes out. But the prequels aren't just old news that we can forget about. They're a massive part of the culture, directly or otherwise, and a symptom of a sickness that's overtaken Hollywood. They're like a mission statement, boldly proclaiming that you should feel free to make unbelievably shitty, nonsensical movies, and the audience will go to see them as long as they're attached to a familiar brand name. And Hollywood has most definitely taken it to heart.

In a way, Drew's argument can be extended to cruddy blockbuster movies in general. "Just don't go see them." And he's right, in a sense, and it's advice that I generally follow. I didn't see Transformers 2 or The Pink Panther or Terminator: Salvation, because it was pretty obvious they were going to suck. I didn't feel obligated to see them just because they were so big, or to avoid being the guy at the water cooler who hadn't seen them, or so that I could have fun eviscerating them on the internet. But you know something? I'm still bitter about these kinds of movies, because they're impacting the filmmaking culture in negative ways. Every time one of them becomes a hit, it's just more license for Hollywood to keep pumping out half-assed crap that I'm pretty sure most people don't even really enjoy.

That, I think, is a pretty solid justification for exercises like Plinkett's, distinct from whining about Lucas raping your childhood.

Oh I'm not sympathizing with them, I could care less. I think they're fools for sure. I'm just explaining where they're coming from and saying let them bitch if they want. If it means that every once in a while I'll get some gems like these redlettermedia reviews, then I'm all for it.

I have a very easy time ignoring things I don't like and finding things I like so you'll rarely hear me complaining about the existence of anything regarding movies, internet or whatever.

I think both of you are leaving the parents out of the equation. Kids aren't just going to movies by themselves. The kids who were die-hard Star Wars fans in their youths are now raising kids of their own. Parents naturally want to share the movies they love with their kids. That's a large part of how childhood favorites are made. Star Wars isn't going away anytime in the next few generations.

If this generation is looking at At World's End as one of the great films of their youths ten years from now, then I pity them. They'll have taken a step down from the Goonies generation. The Pirates films don't deserve that status any more than the Matrix films do.

The truth is, nothing does. The original Star Wars was a flash of inspiration that changed movies forever. Its cultural impact is almost impossible to overstate, and if you weren't there, it's difficult to explain why films made today can't hold the same significance. No modern film can do what Star Wars did, because it's already been done. Pop culture can't be changed the same way twice. If such a change is going to occur again, it won't be another big loud blockbuster movie that does it. Saying that some summer blockbuster franchise is any generation's Star Wars is not only incorrect, but missing why Star Wars was significant. There's a line in film history that's easily distinguished as before SW and after SW. Lord of the Rings, Pirates, or The Matrix can't claim that kind of impact.

It's interesting that you bring that up, because I would have used the McDonald's thing as an analogy for my own point above. There absolutely has to be a degree of personal responsibility, yes. And part of that responsibility is the responsibility to hold the producers of fatty foods or pop culture accountable. "Not buying" is definitely something that you, as an individual, can do to play a part, but that doesn't let the purveyors of crap off the hook.

Their product wouldn't be hurting the culture if the culture weren't voluntarily consuming it. American culture hates the ideas of self-discipline and personal responsibility. It goes from blaming obesity on fast food joints, all the way to blaming teen violence on comics/music/games instead of parenting. The only reason the purveyors of crap have any power is that we give it to them by consuming their crap. If we didn't, their power and influence would be minimal, and there would be nothing to let them off the hook for.

Oh, for the love of -- you can not compare pop culture to fatty foods in this literal way. A metaphorical "this is intellectual empty calories", sure, but to make it a 1:1 ratio... what America eats and what America watches are two different ballgames. Hell, two different sports. McDonalds is an issue of what one puts into their body. Pop Culture is an issue of what one watches. Internal and external. Some may protest this, but Star Wars won't kill you. McDonald's can.

That is why we should give greater scrutiny to the fast food joint. McDonald's can change the structure of your body. Star Wars is a goddamn movie that can't actually hurt you. "Part of that responsibility is the responsibility to hold the producers of fatty foods or pop culture accountable" is just the kind of hyperbole Drew was talking about. You're really gonna equate the impact of these two things? That's a complete loss of perspective.

Did you even read the conversation? It was about people buying multiple versions of DVD's, then bitching about it. I wasn't comparing the relative harm of movies and food, I was making the comparison to demonstrate American culture's lack of self-policing skills. It was an additional example, not a comparison of "intellectual empty calories" with actual calories. The fact that one does more harm than the other is beside the point, which is that people are voluntarily, and with full knowledge of the consequences, harming themselves, and seeking to blame those who provided the means to do so.

Pay attention before going off.

Agreed. I think Moriarty's recent article was basically on the money but it's definitely a bit rich coming from him. Those AICN "Jedi Council" bits went out of their way to stoke the fires of repetitive, smuggly aloof bitching, excessive sense of personal betrayal and tiresome fanwank that he's now turning around and attacking others for indulging in.

But can anyone honestly say with a straight face that it's not a touch ridiculous that there have now essentially been three feature length movies created in less than a year dedicated to raging against the same movie series that ended half a decade ago? And I don't buy the rationalisations people are bringing up for carrying on with it. The truth is that certain people let themselves get obsessed, then they got burned and now they will not forget or forgive.

It's true. Hell < a woman scorned < an angry geek.

The thing is, despite the faux serial killer gag, I don't think Plinkett is an angry geek. He's shrewdly and insightfully exploiting geek fury to support his self-admitted real agenda: comedy.

Whether you think he's funny or not, is a whole other conversation.

Yeah, I sort of don't care what movie he's doing. I'm in it for the aesthetic and character of what he's doing. If I find out he's doing my favorite movie ever next, it's not like I'm going to take it personally.

Exactly. It's a bit like your Remembers column. You often take on movies that I actually think are good. But you do it with style and it's funny as hell. That's why I'm reading. It's not about "agreeing" or getting involved. It's about entertainment.

It's the same case here.

People who take what he's doing personally or seriously are missing the entire point. And that's even taking into account that serious film analysis does go on in those things.

why is this thread 14 pages? it was a youtube video. it was funny. the end.

Sorry we disappointed you, mom.

It's no more "ridiculous" than his Star Trek reviews he's done. It's not like he's come out of nowhere to rail against Star Wars movies. If he spent more time dissecting the Star Wars films it's because there was more fundamentally wrong with them to discuss.

It's pretty telling that his Star Trek critiques are fat-packed with nit-pick, picayune stuff, while the Star Wars reviews spend a lot of time just dealing with the fact that the writing and characters flat don't work.

The thing that irks me about Drew's...whining is that the RLM reviews are not working on a "Hey Lucas raped us right guys?" level. He's showing exactly why they're a failure, and not just in a fanboy way but a very real 'film making 101' way. If you look past the jokes and the voice and dead hookers you can see there's a very real understanding of character and narrative there.

Hell he does the same things for the Star Trek movies and yet I don't see an editorial admonishing him for that. Just because Star Wars hatred is somewhat overplayed now it doesn't diminish what RLM is saying.

Yeah it's funny how the guy also did one for Star Trek Generations, which is even older than the prequels, but the trekkies aren't getting all weird and indignant about it. So, congratulations on being more delicate than trekkies, warsies.

People, for whatever their reasons, care about the prequels. Who gives a shit about Star Trek: Generations?

This exactly. The only way I will ever buy a Star Wars movie again is if nice copies of the non-special edition of the originals come out. I don't even own a copy of Episode 2, and I only own Episode 1 & 3 because they were given to me as gifts. You don't have to buy every version that comes out, even if you're a completionist. Take some responsibility and refrain from buying.

I don't know a lot of people who both love movies and didn't have that Star Wars experience. When I was in kindergarten I would hang upside down on the monkey bars (in that pussy, one-hand-touching-the-ground way) and try and will things to me. I ate those movies like popcorn, I had sleepovers with friends where we watched RotJ four times in a row. I bought a laserdisc player to watch movies in widescreen, and my friend Chris had me over and let me watch Empire Strikes Back in WS. That was an amazing cinema moment in my life. Besides being bad movies that made a lot of money, even with RotJ, the Star Wars franchise was fairly stellar - someone like John Cleese would say that Empire Strikes Back is one of the rare great sequels (he said so when talking about Fierce Creatures, IIRC) - and the prequel trilogy not only ruined that streak, but needless filled in backstory that was not only better left to one's imagination, but did so in a terrible way. These films aren't good other than as a maturation of CGI effects.

Next Generation came at a time where people wanted Star Trek back, and the show did well in syndication, but it was never of the cultural import or impact of Star Wars. In fact, Star Trek achieved its most compelling cultural saturation last year. TMP may have made more money, but it was also following in Star Wars's footprints. When Generations and First Contact came out, sci-fiction and fantasy as a genre was at an all time low culturally. and though the films did okay, there is no Next Generation film that did as well as the reissue of the first Star Wars film, which made $138 Million in 1997. In another context: the reissue did more business than that year's Bond film. More than Face/Off. More than Batman and Robin. Even Trek fans don't like the Next Gen films. But they also watched Rick Berman miss the point for a very long time.