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The Cult of the Amateur

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the recommendation, Devin.

I really enjoyed this, but while I agreed with the author more than I disagreed, I thought his scorched earth policy was a little excessive. For example, he keeps making a big deal about "remixing" and sampling songs, when the idea of taking bits of songs to create new art has been in practice for over 20 years, and to be against that discounts everything from Paul's Boutique to Girl Talk. That seems silly.

The book also runs into the problem of trying to make you feel bad for corporations, which isn't bad in and of itself, but anyone who's read about the music industry knows that the relative collapse of the record industry wasn't due just to pirating alone. It played a big part, and that's worth discussing, but so are album prices and an inability to adapt. I did like his point about iTunes basically killing the album; a good solution to this might be to allow an artist to only make the full album available for download, rather than the single.

I was surprised he chose to focus so much on the record industry, because the death of the mom & pop video store through things like Netflix and Blockbuster is just as sad as the death of Tower Records. The big thing in film, it seems, is the "any monkey with a camera can make Clerks" as pointed out in Devin's editorial and the death of criticism.

And the coda to the book regarding the 2008 election is dated, if only because the rise of Sarah Palin is the rise of the "amateur expert." I'd really like to read a second edition of this, because I bet he's got more than a few things to say about Twitter.

It's a fast read. Check it out.
post #2 of 29
Just finished this.

Yeah, he makes fantastic points about the lack of ethics and quality control online, but the book descends very quickly to the paranoid, while not laying nearly enough emphasis on personal/parental responsibility till the last 10 pages or so.

Still, it's a fascinating read, and really lays out the dangers of internet-based culture as we know it. And he thankfully never reaches the depths of trying to make a case against net neutrality, which I was kinda worried about.
post #3 of 29
I read the full title and I don't want to read the book. The internet isn't killing today's culture. Culture doesn't 'die'. Some cultures try to strong-arm other cultures into submission. That isn't what's happening at all. What's happened is that the old business model is becoming irrelevant. Music creation is alive and well. People have been doing this since their existence. You can talk about information quality control, sure, but I would argue that it's easier to be more informed. Even a printed reference book will have its biases. With the internet, you can't burn books. You can try to censor them, but someone will probably re-upload a copy from somewhere. And we're getting better and better at managing this information.
post #4 of 29
The problem, as Keen writes, though, is that the new business model isn't creating better results. It's creating a lazier one, that's less reliant on facts and integrity than it is public consensus.

Which would be fine if the general public weren't, on average, fucking idiots.
post #5 of 29
One subtitle of the book reads: How blogs, MySpace, YouTube, and the rest of today's user-generated media are destroying our economy, our culture, and our values

hahahah

I know how to solve this problem you mention. I'm not the first one to suggest this. This would be a drastic change in how our society is run. The current power centres would lose their power. But steps could be taken without ruffling too many feathers. What I mean is Anarcho-Syndicalism. The internet has proven our current capitalistic, free-market based system (in which we sell our labor to corporations) inefficient and obsolete.

There's no way to reasonably continue to develop current technology, and advance, while living the same way, and operating our businesses and government, how we have for the past fifty or so years.

Aaaaand...a review of the book I found:

http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2007/...f-the-amateur/

I dunno though, it's on the internet, can I trust the writer has a journalism degree, so he has a correct opinion?
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post

Aaaaand...a review of the book I found:

http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2007/...f-the-amateur/

I dunno though, it's on the internet, can I trust the writer has a journalism degree, so he has a correct opinion?
It's also a very poorly done review which proves one of the major points of Keene.
post #7 of 29
"Keen, who founded a Web startup named AudioCafe during the dot com boom of the nineties, Keen describes himself as “an insider now on the outside who has poured out his cup of Kool-Aid and resigned his membership in the cult.”

God, that article proves his point.
post #8 of 29
While we're considering the internet as one big equal place, in which the existence of crappy old GeoCities websites could piss somebody off for being amateur (not that anyone is forcing Keen and others to visit them), can't I reference CHUD as a reliable information source, to offset, say, that review? I don't think Devin believes he's competing on the same playing field as, say, my very modest little blog that's not even updated very often or read by anyone.

I think Keen would be happier if he realized that he actually doesn't like most people, because they're stupid - the internet has merely opened his eyes to this. People like FOX News watchers have been adept at spreading lies and conspiracy theories, far earlier than the internet's existence.
post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
With the internet, you can't burn books.
No, you just sign a contract saying that you don't own the book, and the company you bought it from can revoke your licence to read it at anytime at will!

You didn't read the book, so why are you trying to have a discussion about it?
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
No, you just sign a contract saying that you don't own the book, and the company you bought it from can revoke your licence to read it at anytime at will!

You didn't read the book, so why are you trying to have a discussion about it?
It's not just that but he's stated up front that the title was enough for him to not read it. For a guy who prides himself on being an intellectual snob you're kinda shallow and lazy, louse!
post #11 of 29
I'm aware that I've only read about the book, and I'm ruminating on it. But it's not like we don't have any preconceptions about anything, before we choose to complete that certain activity or not. ie. "I wouldn't like to watch The Happening because it looks like a stupid movie." No, we make the best use out of our time by finding methods of narrowing things down, to see if they're worthy of said time, without first exploring them. I wouldn't write a paper on this book without reading it; I would have to invent specific quotes and such. But it's not like I haven't heard this argument before, which is basically the luddite argument.
post #12 of 29
Does anybody here like this guy?
post #13 of 29
That's a trick question, right?
post #14 of 29
What do you think his real life is like? Lonely, I imagine.
post #15 of 29
As long as you're verging on ad-hominem attacks, I'm not worried of my point being threatened.
post #16 of 29
Nobody cares about your point. I don't even read most of your posts because they're punishingly long.
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
What do you think his real life is like? Lonely, I imagine.
Ever seen Charly?
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Nobody cares about your point. I don't even read most of your posts because they're punishingly long.
Stop talking about my posts then!
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
I'm aware that I've only read about the book, and I'm ruminating on it. But it's not like we don't have any preconceptions about anything, before we choose to complete that certain activity or not. ie. "I wouldn't like to watch The Happening because it looks like a stupid movie." No, we make the best use out of our time by finding methods of narrowing things down, to see if they're worthy of said time, without first exploring them. I wouldn't write a paper on this book without reading it; I would have to invent specific quotes and such. But it's not like I haven't heard this argument before, which is basically the luddite argument.
No, it's not the luddite argument which if you had read the book you'd know that.

Also, most people wouldn't go in to a thread about The Happening and say they haven't seen it, it looks dumb and then pontificate on why they think it's dumb based on a poorly written review they read.
post #20 of 29
Really? I thought he was railing about technology taking jobs away from people. The twist is that those people aren't the "average joe six-packs", but professionals. Hm.

I've read a lot of commentary on movies before they're released. There are PRE-RELEASE threads all over the place. Whether the review is poorly written or not is subjective, but say, an early CHUD review would suffice as fodder for the ensuing Pre-Release thread.
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
Really? I thought he was railing about technology taking jobs away from people. The twist is that those people aren't the "average joe six-packs", but professionals. Hm.
Read the book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
I've read a lot of commentary on movies before they're released. There are PRE-RELEASE threads all over the place. Whether the review is poorly written or not is subjective, but say, an early CHUD review would suffice as fodder for the ensuing Pre-Release thread.
It's commentary on what they think the movie will be like not on what the movie is. You refuse to read the book yet you want to argue the point within. That is actually the definition of ignorance.

ETA: There's nothing subjective about that review being bad. It's poorly written and misses the point of the book. It's like reading a Michael Medved review on Kick Ass.
post #22 of 29
Before this becomes all about dreary louse...

Full disclosure: I haven't read this book, either. But I work with some very well-respected folks who study information policy issues for a living, I've read a shit-ton about intellectual property rights in the last six months, and I've read a number of critiques on Keen's book that suggest it's pretty simplistic and, in some cases, outright wrong.

I should probably read it before wading in any further, but if one of his arguments is that expertise and accountability are key, I suspect experts on the issue like Lawrence Lessig, Kembrew McLeod, and Siva Vaidyhanathan have more insight on the nature of the web than the failed internet entrepreneur.
post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that, Dave.
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Before this becomes all about dreary louse...

Full disclosure: I haven't read this book, either. But I work with some very well-respected folks who study information policy issues for a living, I've read a shit-ton about intellectual property rights in the last six months, and I've read a number of critiques on Keen's book that suggest it's pretty simplistic and, in some cases, outright wrong.

I should probably read it before wading in any further, but if one of his arguments is that expertise and accountability are key, I suspect experts on the issue like Lawrence Lessig, Kembrew McLeod, and Siva Vaidyhanathan have more insight on the nature of the web than the failed internet entrepreneur.
There's certainly a number of criticisms you can lay at the feet of Keen (most of which are outlined in that link) but it's certainly not a call to arms for luddites.
post #25 of 29
I don't care about sound in film, or your ideas, Ryan S

EDIT: Okay, now I'm being silly, but I personally don't like you very much. You're intelligent, but always quick to hop on the bandwagon, when somebody else has already made their points about me, heaping on annoyance. I'm out of here.
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
I don't care about sound in film, or your ideas, Ryan S

EDIT: Okay, now I'm being silly, but I personally don't like you very much. You're intelligent, but always quick to hop on the bandwagon, when somebody else has already made their points about me, heaping on annoyance. I'm out of here.
So, instead of not being an idiot, you just get mad at people who point out that you're being an idiot. Makes sense.

ETA: I was one of the few arguing against your point rather than against you.
post #27 of 29
I said "heaping" on. If I have a disagreement with somebody, you're bound to appear.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
I said "heaping" on. If I have a disagreement with somebody, you're bound to appear.
You were the one whinging about people making ad hominem attacks yet when someone challenges your ideas you resort to an ad hominem attack.
post #29 of 29
I was talking to you outside of this argument about the book! It wasn't "Oh, I disagree with you about ____ because you're a _____".
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