Madonna - Page 2

Yeah, video killed the radio star and all that. You can't get by in post-MTV music without being good looking or phenomenally talented. But I feel that using controversy to get famous is cheap. It doesn't really take any talent. You could disagree with that, but if not you'd have to admit comparing Madonna to Michael Jackson leaves her lacking.

People other than me dissing Madonna:

Dolores O'Riordan

Cher

Mariah Carey

I agree with Wydren. Also, I'm pretty sure Prince was influenced by Ready for the World.

Mariah Carey's response was a reactive one as Madonna dissed her first.

Beyonce gives Madge the props she deserves

"Burning Up" is still a hot little song.

Great reevaluation of Madonna's albums (1983-2003): American Idol: 20 Years of Madonna

I love that they called Erotica under-appreciated and "Deeper and Deeper "a timeless classic. Truly one of my favorite Madonna songs.

As gimmicks go, Gaga's act takes a lot more commitment than most.

All of the people I mentioned were absurdly committed. Madonna's workout regimen alone is probably a marvel of focus, physical exertion, and attention to what I imagine are drill-sergeant level fitness experts. Andy Kaufman got in front of an audience ready for stand-up comedy and read The Great Gatsby. I wonder when Gaga's going to subvert her audience's expectations like this?

Seriously, she's Grace Jones with a better publicist and catchier songs. People are easily impressed by "weird," even when it's relatively substance-free. Madonna was at least tweaking gender, religion, etc.

Dolores O'Riordan? Why not someone from Ace of Bass or Collective Soul?

More than Andy Kaufman?

For all my crap about Madonna using controversy, at least there was substance to the controversy. Cheap, yes, but substantive.

However, if someone had done it before her, it wouldn't have been that impressive. Kind of like Lady Gaga today.

Madonna has been one of my favorites since the beginning. I don't think she'd pull the same press if she were to go out like MJ, but I'm pretty sure it'd reach some high levels of hysteria if she did. You can't compare a lifetime of success to a one-album wonder.

As for her looks, she is 51 now. I think she looks great, and to each their own. She wants to be in shape to continue to do the same things she's done her whole life. Anyone can post a shitty pic of someone when they're not smiling and say it's proof she looks terrible. I disagree.

One of my all-time favorite videos is Bad Girl. Great song, great video directed by Fincher and starring Christopher Walken.

I meant that Gaga's act takes more commitment than most artists who have some kind of a gimmick, not that she's more committed than people like Bowie or Kaufman.
I only posted the videos of other artists dissing Madonna, not because I thought they proved anything.

You take yourself far too seriously, Dave.

I'm denying that controversy is all that made her famous. More importantly, controversy can jump-start a career, but it can't maintain it. She never would have had longevity if she'd brought nothing but shock value to the table.

Sex got her noticed, but talent and smarts kept her in the game.

Seen Samantha Fox lately?

You're way too impressed with her. Seriously, you seem to have very little grasp of entertainment history. Even fairly recent history. She's not doing anything that hasn't been done before. She really, really isn't. Come out of the now occasionally.

Personal preference isn't up for debate, though. In terms of influence and cultural impact, there's no reasonable argument to be made against Madonna's importance.

I'd agree that controversy didn't maintain her career. Look at Marylin Manson. And I can't deny her cultural impact. But I'd say that she didn't come out with anything artistically worthwhile until Like A Prayer.

I mean, look at that MTV video we were discussing earlier. It was compared to Michael Jackson's Motown 25 performance. Why is that? Is there anything in that video comparable to the moonwalk or MJ's voice? It was a star-making moment because no woman had writhed around on TV like that before. If all she had to go on was the music from her debut and Like A Virgin, we wouldn't be talking about her today.

I guess we agree, because I'd agree that her music got better later. But if anyone had drummed up the controversy before her, she'd be Lady Gaga with worse music. For that reason, I'd consider her a few steps below Michael Jackson or even Weird Al Yankovic.

Like a Prayer is her best song, but she did several great pop songs before that. I think that it's easy to forget that she wrote most of her songs.

What I'm saying is, she wrote Borderline.

Are you sure you want to go ad hominem in a thread about Madonna?

Anyway, there's this and this, so that's neat.

I never said that what she's doing hadn't been done before. She's doing what all good pop stars do; recycling what came before her and turning it into something new. Madonna is definitely one of the people she takes inspiration from, but you could say that about pretty much every female pop star. There's really no denying that what she's doing is more layered than what most pop stars are trying for these days, even if you don't think that what she's doing is all that deep.

I understand that she has people helping her pull everything off, but you really can't deny her commitment to what she's doing in her interviews, videos, and live performances.

The Village Voice: Lady Gaga Approximately

Slant's take on her Monsters Ball tour

"Lady Gaga: On the Record" Fuse interview

Looking at her Wikipedia page, Madonna had a tremendous run of catchy, well-produced pop songs prior to Like a Prayer: Holiday; Lucky Star; Borderline; Like a Virgin; Material Girl; Into the Groove; Live to Tell; Papa Don't Preach; True Blue; Open Your Heart; La Isla Bonita; Who's That Girl.

I think of her as more of a line-drive than home run hitter. Sort the Joe Mauer of pop singers. Artistically, Madonna's best attribute is her voice. I say this despite the fact that her voice lacks power, she frequently sings off-key, and she doesn't have anywhere near virtuosic control. She just has one of those voices with personality, even if it's a nasally and shrill personality. Most of her producers seem to understand this, and her voice is usually quite exposed in the mix.

I almost forgot about this song. Thanks for reminding me how good it is.


Yeah, I definitely agree with that; I find the more obvious flaws in her voice in her 80s recording kind of charming.

I just have to add: nothing brings a smile to my face more than being in a supermarket and listening to Madonna sing about masturbation over the muzak system. (Secret)

Yeah, that is a really good point. When you consider how dance-pop diva types sound these days, it is kind of striking how much personality her voice has. It's iconic like Bono's or Michael Stipe's voice is iconic. So I'd say she's got Lady Gaga beat there in a very substantial way (yeah, yeah - Gaga's going for synthetic - but everyone sounds synthetic these days, so it just makes her sound unremarkable).

I finally saw that Madonna-oriented Glee episode from last week, and it illustrated a couple of points:

1. While I'm iffy on most of her work post-early 90s, she had an amazingly strong run of songs right out of the gate (just look at that list John Shade put up (and even that's missing a few, like "Crazy for You," "Burning Up");

2. That iconic quality of her voice had a lot to do with how good those songs were. The Glee folks are pretty talented, but they fell way short on the best songs they covered, not for lack of range, but for lack of personality.

I don't totally disagree with this. I think Gaga has a good voice (it has a nice tone; clear as a bell), but she's definitely trying to make her voice conform to the music ("puh-puh-puh-poker face") in most of her recordings.

Yeah, but to be fair to them, the auto-tune might be a factor as well.

University of Oregon Glee club shows how easy it is to "do" Gaga.

Anyone here read American Psycho? I got a bit of a Bateman vibe in this thread.

Kelly Clarkson makes it clear what a great singer Madonna is not

(Just having fun with ya, Diva!)

As much as I love Clarkson, that type of song really doesn't suit her big voice. It's like Mariah Carey covering the Pet Shop Boys or something.

Since everyone else is posting links:

Nope, Gaga isn't inspired by Madonna at all.

She's decent in Desperately Seeking Susan and A League of Their Own.

I also have a soft spot for her over the top performance in Who's That Girl? ("Guess what? TRICKS!")

Madonna is not a good singer. She's a good entertainer. There's a difference.

I don't disagree.

I actually like her in Dick Tracy as well. It's not exactly awards-worthy acting, but she fits in with the milieu.

6th grader takes on Gaga, gives her a run for her money.

Yeah, she's alright in that, and she looks good in it.

Plus, I love "Sooner or Later". I think Madonna has the distinction of being the only person to have songs written for her by both Stephen Sondheim and Andrew Lloyd Webber.

The style of music largely dictates the type of voice. God forbid Madonna attempts the 'Minnie Riperton Songbook' or the 'Queen of the Night' aria.

This is an argument I've had with my Dad several times. A beautiful, flawless voice doesn't mean a damn thing without good songwriting. That's why Bob Dylan is remembered more fondly than Ann Murray.

I don't think Madonna is a bad singer, but from a technical stand-point, I would say that her voice is only okay. She has a hard time staying on pitch unless Donna De Lory is there to keep her on track.

Having said that, I think she sings with a lot more personality than Aguilera (or Mariah or Whitney in their prime).

She also has the advantage of having better, more interesting songs (at least in the first half of her career). Regardless of whether she's writing or co-writing them, or she just has more of an ear for the work of other songwriters, her best stuff tends to be quite catchy and memorable.

Carey's apparently a juggernaut on the charts, but I don't think she has a single song that's going to stick in the canon. It's like pop music fast food taken to the extreme. Houston at least has "The Greatest Love of All," "I Will Always Love You," "I'm Every Woman," etc., which are kind of iconic, although it kind of pains me to say it.

I would agree, but I only recently discovered that All I Want For Christmas Is You wasn't some old cover but actually a co-written Carey original. So she's got an entry in the xmas song cannon if nowhere else.

This Australian 60 Minutes interview with her is pretty great. You can really see how she challenged people's ideas about sexuality.

(videos contain nsfw images from Madonna's sex book)
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGLkg...eature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YsH...eature=related

How could you not list "How Will I Know" and "I Wanna Dance With Somebody"? I don't own a Whitney album, but if any of her songs come on, I'm a happy camper.

Carey's "Vision of Love," "Emotions," Hero", and "Always Be My Baby" are pretty iconic, I'd say. But her decision to be a slutty hip hop ho in recent years is unfortunate. Most hip hop does not allow for the complexity of range Carey has with her voice. Plus, she picks some pretty crappy songs to sing. That said, the only song I truly love from Carey is the remix of "Fantasy" featuring ODB and the infectious sample from the Tom Tom Club's single "Genius of Love".

As a gay kid who was ten the year Madonna broke out, her influence on my life is something immeasurable. I realize I'm a living cliche saying this, but she spoke to something in my DNA, something in my little queer brain clicked whenever Lucky Star or Like A Virgin or especially Into the Groove came on MTV (same with anything off Prince's Purple Rain....jeez 1984 was an awesome time to be ten years old!)

As for being objective about her music catalogue, I think I can be, despite being an uber fan....her first album is pure 80's pop goodness....Holiday, Burning Up, Borderline, Lucky Star, Everybody, Physical Attraction, all great dance pop. Like A Virgin, on the other hand, is a damn chore to get through as an album...aside from the title track, Dress You Up and Material Girl, i find much of this album unlistenable (her other greatest hits from the LAV era, Into the Groove and Crazy for You, aren't even on the album) True Blue is a step up, but I don't think she produced a totally solid album till Like A Prayer. That was her first album I could listen to from start to finish, and still holds up. I think with Erotica, Madonna produced another great album, but the overtly sexual themes turned off all but her loyal queer audience. I know that Bedtime Stories is seen as her "comeback" after Erotica, but to me it is a boring as hell album, with a few decent tracks.

To me, "modern" Madonna began with Ray of Light, and I love that album to death to this day. I can listen to this one from start to finish, I think it is brilliant, and Music and Confessions are not far behind. She may not have as many pop singles as she once had, but listening to a Madonna album these days is not about skipping to that song you like anymore. They are complete experiences. Unlike Michael Jackson, she continued to produce music and push herself for the most part, at least until very recently.

I think she doesn't care that much about new music these days though. Hard Candy was fun, but lazy. Her video for Celebration was generic and boring. She cares more about touring (where the real $$ is) and Madonna the brand (like the Dolce and Gabana glasses and her Material Girls line at Macy's) But after 25 years, she fucking earned it. Elvis and Marilyn's images and brand name sell everything from toothpaste to beach towels these days, yet were too self destructive to financially benifit from their iconic status. Let Madonna do what they couldn't I say.

As for GaGa, I will say this...she is Madonna's true heir. Not Britney, Not Christina, not Nelly fuckin' Furtado. I await each new GaGa video with the same thrill that a new Madonna video would bring me when i was a kid. She is competing in an arena Madonna seems to not care as much about anymore, the world of music videos and pop singles. Let her pick up the slack.