or Connect
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › New Arizona immigration laws
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New Arizona immigration laws

post #1 of 352
Thread Starter 
So, is John McCain going senile these days or has he just snapped and is selling everything he once stood for down the river just to maintain a little bit of power in the bugfuck crazy republican heirarchy? I find the guy utterly bewildering and pretty fucking pathetic...

Arizona gets tough on immigration

Quote:
ARIZONA'S legislators have passed America's toughest immigration laws, giving state police the power to detain people who cannot prove their citizenship or right to be in the country.

The measures also ban ''illegals'' in Arizona from congregating on street corners hoping for a day's labouring for cash, while making it an offence for citizens to employ illegal workers or transport them within the state.

The laws, which critics say will encourage racial profiling, were approved on Monday as Arizona's federal senators, John McCain and John Kyl, called on the White House and Congress to support a 10-point plan for securing the state's 600-kilometre international border.

The blueprint calls for the deployment of 3000 National Guard troops and a big boost in funding, as well as extensive fencing and intensified unmanned aircraft patrols.

The move reverses Senator McCain's previously more liberal stance on immigration policy in the face of a fierce challenge to his Republican nomination for November's mid-term elections. Senator McCain referred to the Arizona bill as ''a tool that I think needs to be used'' in view of the state's estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants.
...so how long before Arizona becomes bankrupt if it's illegal to hire illegals?
post #2 of 352
I'm OK with making it illegal to employ illegal workers, but letting police detain people who can't prove their citizenship? That's an awful short walk from "Papers, please"-style shenanigans.
post #3 of 352
As a citizen of Arizona I approve of these measures.
post #4 of 352
I hope that Some Random Guy has a darker skin tone and one day forget his papers when the police checks him up..
post #5 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some random guy View Post
As a citizen of Arizona I approve of these measures.
Is illegal activity there that bad?

Of course when I read this article, this is the first thing that came to mind...



No Ticket
post #6 of 352
There are naturalized citizens who have been told to keep their papers locked in a secure location due to the difficulty and cost of replacing them. Now they're essentially being told to have them with them at all times in case a cop decides they don't look legal.

I'm sorry, this is a little terrifying.
post #7 of 352
Notice how there's never any mention of penalizing anyone who hires undocumented workers, as if supply exists without demand.

These laws are really vile, and this "blame the 'legals" mentality is so ass-backwards you just want to shake these people and break them out of this ugly cult they've gotten wrapped up in.

I heard Arizona Congressman Grijalva on the radio yesterday, who is going to call of a boycott of major events (conventions, expos, etc.) in Arizona if these Nazi laws get passed.
post #8 of 352
I love the phrasing. "...gets tough on immigration..." Posturing Tough Guy Conservatism beats Wimpy Li'l' Liberalism every time!
post #9 of 352
This is what you get from a state filled with old white people. I hate that place.
post #10 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Notice how there's never any mention of penalizing anyone who hires undocumented workers, as if supply exists without demand.
Quote:
The measures also ban ''illegals'' in Arizona from congregating on street corners hoping for a day's labouring for cash, while making it an offence for citizens to employ illegal workers or transport them within the state.
From what was linked on the very first post.
post #11 of 352
More Arizona Fuckery

Quote:
PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.

The House voted 31-22 to add the provision to a separate bill. The measure still faces a formal vote.

It would require U.S. presidential candidates who want to appear on the ballot in Arizona to submit documents proving they meet the constitutional requirements to be president.

Phoenix Democratic Rep. Kyrsten Sinema said the bill is one of several measures that are making Arizona "the laughing stock of the nation."

Mesa Republican Rep. Cecil Ash said he has no reason to doubt Obama's citizenship but supports the measure because it could help end doubt.
It will be interesting to see which state wins out for being the most reactionary shithole in the coming years.
post #12 of 352
"Dey durk ur durbs!"
post #13 of 352
Wouldn't, I don't know, ACTUALLY BEING FUCKING ELECTED AND SWORN IN prove he meets the requirements?
post #14 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
...so how long before Arizona becomes bankrupt if it's illegal to hire illegals?
This prohibition of their labor could also cause more exploitation. I doubt employers will suddenly give up hiring illegals, and now it could be easier to abuse their employees, with threats of turning them in for detention. This mostly depends on the laws written up for hiring illegals, and I'm unfamiliar with them.
post #15 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Wouldn't, I don't know, ACTUALLY BEING FUCKING ELECTED AND SWORN IN prove he meets the requirements?
Never underestimate the nefarious potential of red tape bureaucracy.

When I went to renew my driver's license, my prior one was not good enough proof of who I was...even though it was my PRIMARY FORM OF LEGAL IDENTIFICATION ISSUED BY THE DMV THEMSELVES!

My wearing a burqua in the picture may have played a role in that, though.
post #16 of 352
Wasn't it already illegal to hire illegal workers?
post #17 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorboy View Post
Wasn't it already illegal to hire illegal workers?
Yeah but it worked like a double negative, so it was really OK.
post #18 of 352
This legislation is extremely dangerous and it's the antithesis of conservatism.
post #19 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
This legislation is extremely dangerous and it's the antithesis of conservatism.
McCain stopped being a conservative years ago. Of course, so did a number of people in the Republican party.
post #20 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Yeah but it worked like a double negative, so it was really OK.
Ah. The conservative equivalent of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".
post #21 of 352
A few months ago a farmer was shot by an illegal just for trying to save him from dehydration. This true american hero had saved countless illegals from a similar fate.
post #22 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some random guy View Post
A few months ago a farmer was shot by an illegal just for trying to save him from dehydration. This true american hero had saved countless illegals from a similar fate.
Well, that's enough for me. Bring on the fascism!
post #23 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some random guy View Post
A few months ago a farmer was shot by an illegal just for trying to save him from dehydration. This true american hero had saved countless illegals from a similar fate.
And I guess now it is rendered illegal for true American heroes to save them from dehydration by means of transporting them. Or is this just a No Country For Old Men scenario of compassion?
post #24 of 352
Yes, now I can ask for someone's papers before I offer them a water from my fridge, just to be sure they're a real American.
post #25 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Notice how there's never any mention of penalizing anyone who hires undocumented workers, as if supply exists without demand.
Arizona actually has a system in place already in regards to businesses who receive sizeable fines if they hire somebody (even for a day) and don't run them through some system first which verifies their citizenship. It looks to me like they're more concerned about the day laborers who congregate in multiple areas of the city hoping to find work for a day either from individuals or contractors who are small enough that they just ignore the laws.

I'm not sure how far away from McCain's election stance this is anyhow. His point during the election was that we really make minimal effort to stop people from crossing the border, and we make zero effort to find them once they've crossed illegally, so it makes no sense to act tough on people who have been here for years. His idea was basically to give blanket citizenship to those who were already here, and then move forward with better patrolling of the border and doing a better job of trying to find people who crossed illegally after the citizenship date.

So essentially he got no traction on the citizenship part, but he's able to get some push on trying to do a better job of locating illegals after they've crossed. I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's really not that far from where he started.

As far as somebody asking about how bad the situation is in Arizona, I'd guess it's no worse than most of the border states. The main difference is that this state is still conservative even though it wants to appear maverick. The Goldwater legacy is alive and well. Do bad things happen because of illegals? Absolutely, probably at just about the same rate as any citizens. Things like the farmer being shot get a LOT of run here though, and it's easy to rile people up and pretend that our state ills can be blamed on somebody.
post #26 of 352
America reign in the corporations and banks that are sucking you dry!
post #27 of 352
Next time you all don't pay through the fucking nose as bad as you COULD be for an orange, watermelon, pickle, cucumber, etc.... you should take a stroll through some of the farms in Florida (and I'd wager they're about the same everywhere else).

They won't ever REALLY come down on the people that employ illegals. And if they ever did, these same conservative assholes are going to be doing a WHOLE lot more whining and moaning about the price of goods than they ever were about illegals. The shittiest part it, they all know this. It's just a game of tough-guy posturing.
post #28 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
They won't ever REALLY come down on the people that employ illegals. And if they ever did, these same conservative assholes are going to be doing a WHOLE lot more whining and moaning about the price of goods than they ever were about illegals. The shittiest part it, they all know this. It's just a game of tough-guy posturing.
This sfm.

Also, this:
Quote:
In July of 2007, Prince William County, Virginia became “ground zero” in America’s explosive battle over immigration policy when elected officials adopted a law requiring police officers to question anyone they thought was “probably” undocumented.

9500 Liberty reveals the startling vulnerability of a local government targeted by national anti-immigration networks using the Internet to frighten and intimidate lawmakers and citizens. Alarmed by a climate of fear and racial division, residents form a resistance using YouTube videos and virtual townhalls, setting up a real life showdown in the seat of county government.

The devastating social and economic impact of the “Immigration Resolution” is felt in the lives of real people in homes and in local businesses. But the ferocious fight to adopt and then reverse this policy unfolds inside government chambers, on the streets, and on the Internet. 9500 Liberty provides a front row seat to all three battlegrounds.
Trailer here.
post #29 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Next time you all don't pay through the fucking nose as bad as you COULD be for an orange, watermelon, pickle, cucumber, etc.... you should take a stroll through some of the farms in Florida (and I'd wager they're about the same everywhere else).

They won't ever REALLY come down on the people that employ illegals. And if they ever did, these same conservative assholes are going to be doing a WHOLE lot more whining and moaning about the price of goods than they ever were about illegals. The shittiest part it, they all know this. It's just a game of tough-guy posturing.
Not exactly true. Most of our major farms are WAY down south near Yuma. The produce companies actually have a way around the system in taking the time and energy to bus employees from across the border to do the work for a day and then bus them back to the border each night. I'm not even sure what the logistics are behind it, but it's legal and as far as I know they don't have to follow US minimum wage requirements.

There are other farms near the metropolitan areas but I'm fairly certain all of those follow the guidelines. See, the fines are pretty nuts and you couple that with Joe Arpaio who is so intent on having his name in the news as "America's Toughest Sheriff" that I can't imagine those farms risking it. He already stages traffic stops and the like in different areas of the city on a regular basis looking for illegals and somehow avoiding lawsuits on racial profiling while still ending up on the news with people complaining about racial profiling. That guy lives for publicity, and if he thought there was a chance of shutting some farm down under the law he'd take it in a heartbeat.
post #30 of 352
We drew a line here and said "You can't cross it and if you do you're a criminal" is one of the most bullshit rationalizations for the mistreatment of our fellow human beings we've ever had the misfortune of dreaming up.

We are a nation of fucking immigrants! Do people not get this shit? Unless your ancestors were hunting buffalo herds on the Great Plains, dropping peyote in the desert to commune with God or creating a proto-marxist society in the Hudson River Valley you can just shut the fuck up about illegal immigration. But hey, it's much easier to oppress someone out of fear and because certain interests have created boogiemen to ward you away from the real problems facing human society.

In closing, fuck Arizona and fuck the people in this country who support this bullshit.
post #31 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
He already stages traffic stops and the like in different areas of the city on a regular basis looking for illegals and somehow avoiding lawsuits on racial profiling while still ending up on the news with people complaining about racial profiling. That guy lives for publicity, and if he thought there was a chance of shutting some farm down under the law he'd take it in a heartbeat.
I seriously hope that cocksucker dies a horrible death. Today if possible. Oh my, how I hate that hypocritical asshole.

Raped and murdered slowly by his own prisoners would be nice. Or by his own family.
post #32 of 352
Not that it should be a surprise to anyone here but the Tea Parties are all for it!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/rig...he_arizon.html

From the Arizona Tea Party's page on how to rally for the bill:

We are asking for you to spread the word to see if anyone is available to come down there... to show your support of the bill.




So much for opposition to government intrusion into your lives...
post #33 of 352
Achtung, Arizona. Jesus wept.
post #34 of 352
Quote:
"We must enforce the law evenly, and without regard to skin color, accent, or social status," she said. "We must prove the alarmists and the cynics wrong."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_549931.html

What a load of shit! Yeah, all these Europeans sneaking into Arizona across the desert...ROFLMAO
post #35 of 352
Seriously, what does this really mean? Do I have to carry my US passport when traveling to this state (And believe me, I'll avoid going to Arizona at all costs if possible)?

Is it constitutional for a cop to see me and decide to question me for my freaking citizenship, I don't understand the practicality of this law. And I'm horribly disappointed in McCain, he really sold everything out during the election, but is doing nothing to redeem himself now.
post #36 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Seriously, what does this really mean? Do I have to carry my US passport when traveling to this state (And believe me, I'll avoid going to Arizona at all costs if possible)?

Is it constitutional for a cop to see me and decide to question me for my freaking citizenship, I don't understand the practicality of this law. And I'm horribly disappointed in McCain, he really sold everything out during the election, but is doing nothing to redeem himself now.
Like I said, Sherriff Joe was essentially already doing this. All they did was legalize what he was doing (and what he claimed was legal already). It's shocking that our state is in such dire financial straits as we continually do everything possible to alienate people and encourage out of staters to do everything in their power to drive around our state on the way to California.
post #37 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorboy View Post
So much for opposition to government intrusion into your lives...
Come on, it's OK for the government to intrude if you want to have an abortion, if you're gay and want to get married, or if you look sufficiently Hispanic to have your citizenship questioned. How are those not acceptable exceptions?

$1000 to the first cop in Arizona who questions a blonde-haired blue-eyed person they suspect might be here illegally. I suspect it'll be safe.
post #38 of 352
Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html
post #39 of 352
Greg Palast's investigation has shown that this is about intimidating and disenfranchising legal voters of latino origins.
Quote:
In 2008, working for Rolling Stone with civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy, our team flew to Arizona to investigate what smelled like an electoral pogrom against Chicano voters ... directed by one Jan Brewer.

Brewer, then Secretary of State, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelming Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

Which raises the question: were these disenfranchised voters the criminal, non-citizens Brewer tagged them, or just not-quite-white voters given the José Crow treatment, entrapped in document-chase trickery?

The answer was provided by a federal prosecutor who was sent on a crazy hunt all over the Western mesas looking for these illegal voters. "We took over 100 complaints, we investigated for almost 2 years, I didn’t find one prosecutable voter fraud case."

This prosecutor, David Iglesias, is a prosecutor no more. When he refused to fabricate charges of illegal voting among immigrants, his firing was personally ordered by the President of the United States, George W. Bush, under orders from his boss, Karl Rove.

Iglesias' jurisdiction was next door, in New Mexico, but he told me that Rove and the Republican chieftains were working nationwide to whip up anti-immigrant hysteria with public busts of illegal voters, even though there were none.

"They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments," Iglesias told me. The former prosecutor, himself a Republican, paid the price when he stood up to this vicious attack on citizenship.
The rest is here.

ps. don't bother discrediting Palast. You may not like his style but his investigative reporting is solid. So, before you attack him, prove him wrong.
post #40 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html
Well that didn't take long.
post #41 of 352
In a just and righteous world, one that made some sort of sense to me, those Tea Party buffoons would be out in force protesting against shit like this. Instead, once again, we have everything ass backwards because certain interests have pegged certain issues/demographics/people as detrimental to traditional economic and power structures. And we're supposed to better than the rest of the world how?

We're a nation of fearful hypocrites waiting to be manipulated en masse for the benefit of interests beyond our own. So kudos to Arizona for living up to the real American Dream: Arresting the brown people because you're afraid of losing an illusionary grip over the control of a nation founded on the same terms you're currently railing against.
post #42 of 352
Thread Starter 
post #43 of 352
So what are the odds that some deluded Birther or oathkeeper, who has a daytime job as cop, does attempt to arrest President Obama during his next Arizona gig, for not being able to show his birth certificate and thereby being illegal in Arizona?

Would the secret service be allowed to shoot that guy in the attempt?
post #44 of 352
Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight.com offers up his take on this whole sitation:

Quote:
And here is how Rasmussen polled on the question:

Do you favor or oppose legislation that authorizes local police to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant?

Granted, there are some ambiguities about what the law actually does. And coming up with the appropriate poll wording for complex questions like these is never easy.

But Rasmussen's portrayal of the law is very gentle. There's no mention of the provisions that liberals and civil libertarians find most odious: that the law would charge legal immigrants with trespassing for failure to carry documentation papers (although -- note -- this is already required under federal law); that it would give law enforcement officers new powers of detention (rather than mere "verification"); that it would allow officers, without a warrant, to arrest people who they suspected might be guilty of offenses that could lead to deportation, and that it would prohibit certain types of work-for-hire involving moving vehicles.

The Rasmussen poll says that 60 percent of Americans (and 70 percent of Arizonans) favor the new law, but how would those numbers change if people were read a longer or more complete description of the measure? Since there's been no other polling on the subject, we have no idea. It wouldn't shock me if the law indeed proved to be popular, especially in Arizona, if a fuller description were read. (Liberals, who uniformly seem to think that the law will be unpopular with certain key demographic groups, are a bit too sanguine about this). But this poll is so simplistic as to provide very little informational value.

To their credit, Rasmussen later asked people whether they were concerned that "efforts to identify and deport illegal immigrants will also end up violating the civil rights of some U.S. citizens"; 58 percent said they were in fact somewhat or very concerned. But that finding did not get their lede, nor was that concern expressed relative to Arizona's law itself.

And in general, this poll seems to be emblematic of a commercial polling industry that gravitates toward surveys that are about a mile wide and an inch deep. That approach might be perfectly fine for horse-race (election) polling, where many of the "non-traditional" pollsters (including Rasmussen) do just fine. Polling on policy issues, however -- particularly policy issues like a new state law on which the public is liable to have limited familiarity -- ought to inspire more thought and more finesse.
post #45 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
So what are the odds that some deluded Birther or oathkeeper, who has a daytime job as cop, does attempt to arrest President Obama during his next Arizona gig, for not being able to show his birth certificate and thereby being illegal in Arizona?

Would the secret service be allowed to shoot that guy in the attempt?
I'm sure our theoretical Birther would live to tell about it, provided he hits the ground and puts his hands over his head the first time the Secret Service quick-draw and scream at him.
post #46 of 352
Geez, every time I hear someone say, "Well, if you have all your papers and have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about," I want to claw their eyes out.
post #47 of 352
Wow. Arizona's fucked.
post #48 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Wow. Arizona's fucked.
What, they're reputation? Or do you mean "in the head?"
post #49 of 352
Ya know, I kinda dismiss most folks when they complain about "Godwin" elements in a political thread. Mostly because it's become almost as knee-jerk to bitch about it as it is to label something Nazi-esque.

Now here we have the perfect example of the "how it all gets away from you" principle in history. Nobody believes that shit like this can get past the "I can't believe they're even discussing shit like this!" phase. Why? 'Cause we're Americans, dammit! Seperating niggers into their own units while claiming the moral high ground over arrogant krauts and jap monkeys was just part of the price of liberty, apparently.

Well, all the internet chatter, all the Daily Show commentaries, all the profound blog posts, all the assumptions of reason have proven what? It can still happen. It has happened. And you know what? Folks are still just sitting there going "This can't happen here!" Hey asswipe, it just did!

By the way, this is exactly the thing I tried to caution ElCapitan about in the mAnn Coulter thread. Now, for him, his country has 49 states and one passport-required protectorate.
post #50 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Wouldn't, I don't know, ACTUALLY BEING FUCKING ELECTED AND SWORN IN prove he meets the requirements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
Never underestimate the nefarious potential of red tape bureaucracy.

When I went to renew my driver's license, my prior one was not good enough proof of who I was...even though it was my PRIMARY FORM OF LEGAL IDENTIFICATION ISSUED BY THE DMV THEMSELVES!
Same thing happened to me when I went in to change my address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
We are a nation of fucking immigrants! Do people not get this shit?
I've got no problem with immigrants. I just want them to pay taxes like the rest of us. This statement comes on the heels of just owing Uncle Sam $1100 a week or so back.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › New Arizona immigration laws