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New Arizona immigration laws - Page 3

post #101 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Why not just decriminalise instead of legalize? Always seemed like a sensible middle ground to me.
This. It's working pretty well in Canada.
post #102 of 354
You didn't just say "some of these people will take advantage of the situation", you flatly stated that any taxes being paid in are being negated by fraud. That needs to be supported by facts.
post #103 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Don't for a minute think there aren't immigrants (with the same kind of false documents) taking full advantage of our country's welfare system. And NOT working. At all.

Whatever tax you think is being paid into the system is negated by the individuals who are exploiting that same system.

And people who make below a certain amount (see my wife for instance) don't get any tax taken out. Zero. So when we file jointly, her total pittance just adds to our total amount of taxed income... That means I have to pay for the tax that wasn't removed from her paycheck.

Also, ever hear of "working under the table". You think that doesn't go on? No tax. No paper trail.

And refusing to show said identification (like refusing to open your trunk) can raise that suspicion.
Do you honestly believe that immigrants are the only ones not paying taxes? Or that, in fact, that they are the largest percentage of people not paying taxes?

Paying under the table is a huge issue in Canada so I assume that it's the same in the States. It's also very rarely immigrants who are doing it. It's usually guys who want to double dip with a job and EI or collect a WCB claim while still working.
post #104 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
You didn't just say "some of these people will take advantage of the situation", you flatly stated that any taxes being paid in are being negated by fraud. That needs to be supported by facts.
Isn't it fraud that is providing them with a paycheck in the first place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Do you honestly believe that immigrants are the only ones not paying taxes? Or that, in fact, that they are the largest percentage of people not paying taxes?
Where did I say that?
"only ones"
"largest percentage "


Now who's assuming?

And for the record, I'm speaking of illegal immigrants, not ones that have taken the required steps to work and live here.

Alright, here's a link discussing costs:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
Welfare abuse isn't as high as I assumed (I'll admit when I'm wrong), but the system is still being taken advantage of in other ways.
post #105 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Isn't it fraud that is providing them with a paycheck in the first place?

Where did I say that?
"only ones"
"largest percentage "


Now who's assuming?
I have no idea if you rail against all people who abuse the system. I apologize if that's the case.
post #106 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
I have no idea if you rail against all people who abuse the system. I apologize if that's the case.
Sure. Like I said, I just had to cough up $1100 last week on the tail end of being laid off for a few months. I'm bitter and struggling.
post #107 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Don't for a minute think there aren't immigrants (with the same kind of false documents) taking full advantage of our country's welfare system. And NOT working. At all.

Whatever tax you think is being paid into the system is negated by the individuals who are exploiting that same system.

And people who make below a certain amount (see my wife for instance) don't get any tax taken out. Zero. So when we file jointly, her total pittance just adds to our total amount of taxed income... That means I have to pay for the tax that wasn't removed from her paycheck.

Also, ever hear of "working under the table". You think that doesn't go on? No tax. No paper trail.

And refusing to show said identification (like refusing to open your trunk) can raise that suspicion.
Um, white folks do the same shit. It's not an immigration issue. And as far as your wife's income - she has control over how much tax is taken out of her salary - you set all that up on your W-9 form when you start employment (assuming she's not working contract in a 1099-MISC scenario). Is it hard to get up on a horse so high? I'm just curious.
post #108 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Sure. Like I said, I just had to cough up $1100 last week on the tail end of being laid off for a few months. I'm bitter and struggling.
Fair enough. It's difficult some days to separate "I'm pissed about taxes" people from the "I'm pissed about brown people so I'll couch my words in terms of taxes" people. Given you're history on the board, I should've given you the benefit of the doubt.
post #109 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Um, white folks do the same shit. It's not an immigration issue. And as far as your wife's income - she has control over how much tax is taken out of her salary - you set all that up on your W-9 form when you start employment (assuming she's not working contract in a 1099-MISC scenario). Is it hard to get up on a horse so high? I'm just curious.
When did this become about color? This is about taking advantage of the system.

As far as my wife's pay, she talked to HR. They will not take out tax if her total is below a certain amount. I can't remember if it's a Federal, state, or corporate mandate, now that I think about it.

I should just stick to talking about movies. I don't want to see posts that say "Well he's crazy. You know his rep in the politics forum..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Fair enough. It's difficult some days to separate "I'm pissed about taxes" people from the "I'm pissed about brown people so I'll couch my words in terms of taxes" people. Given you're history on the board, I should've given you the benefit of the doubt.
No prob. I tend to have a terrible brain to mouth filter and regret thinks I say/type, but I'd hate to give the wrong impression round here.
post #110 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
When did this become about color? This is about taking advantage of the system.
It's an immigration thread. Had you started a thread railing against all welfare abusers it probably wouldn't be an issue, but using this bullshit law to air specific grievances with illegal immigrants does make it seem like it's a little bit about colour. Just playing devil's advocate.
post #111 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
As far as my wife's pay, she talked to HR. They will not take out tax if her total is below a certain amount. I can't remember if it's a Federal, state, or corporate mandate, now that I think about it.
That must be some corporate policy. Even minimum wage employess have taxes deducted from their checks.

Quote:
I should just stick to talking about movies. I don't want to see posts that say "Well he's crazy. You know his rep in the politics forum..."
You're fine, you big silly.
post #112 of 354
Yeah, I shoulda said legal citizens, that's my bad. Point still stands, though. And that's interesting about your wife's job. Minimum wage jobs back when I was a teenager still made me take out taxes. Hm.

But yeah, someone already said it before - illegals aren't necessarily a drain, tax-wise. They certainly BUY shit, so they're paying all the state, local and sales tax applied to said shit, and even if they did file a federal return, CHANCES ARE (specualtion, yes), that they'd make so little they'd either be in a situation like your wife's where they don't pay any to begin with, OR they'd pay in but get it ALL back (and then some, depending on the circumstances) in April.
post #113 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
It's an immigration thread. Had you started a thread railing against all welfare abusers it probably wouldn't be an issue, but using this bullshit law to air specific grievances with illegal immigrants does make it seem like it's a little bit about colour. Just playing devil's advocate.
Fair enough.

It's mostly the timing of the thread and that taxes were just due on the 15th.
post #114 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Don't for a minute think there aren't immigrants (with the same kind of false documents) taking full advantage of our country's welfare system.
Do you even know what the definition of immigrant is???
post #115 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Do you even know what the definition of immigrant is???
And?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
... for the record, I'm speaking of illegal immigrants, not ones that have taken the required steps to work and live here.
.. and carry their share of the tax burden. I'm not talking about all foreign-born households, Cap.
post #116 of 354
Then say "illegal immigrants", "undocumented immigrants"', etc. , unless you want to sound like a nativist nutjob.
post #117 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Then say "illegal immigrants", "undocumented immigrants"', etc. , unless you want to sound like a nativist nutjob.
Sorry, I thought it was implied when I said:
Quote:
immigrants (with the same kind of false documents)
and
Quote:
immigrants with false documentation to work
and
Quote:
illegal workers
and
Quote:
illegal immigrants
I may be a nutjob for enjoying the schlocky movies I do, but I know this country was built on the backs of the tired, poor, and huddled masses.
post #118 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Yeah? Got any links to studies or statistics that back that up, or are you just sure of it?
I have to imagine it's difficult to get reliable statistic data on people breaking the law in the shadows of society.

You end up getting your ticket punched for your trouble.

'A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti..."

Don't assume there are countless millions of illegals on the dole while dealing drugs and sex slaves, or precious few thanks to their totally innocent put upon angelic state. It's somewhere in the middle.

I don't blame illegals for coming here. If I lived in Mexico under these conditions, I'd be making a run for the border too. We have to do something about conditions there as well as here.
post #119 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
I don't blame illegals for coming here. If I lived in Mexico under these conditions, I'd be making a run for the border too. We have to do something about conditions there as well as here.
Shit, if the Tea Party assholes ever truly got a stranglehold on this country, I'd be New Zealand's version of the "filthy Mexican scourge."
post #120 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Shit, if the Tea Party assholes ever truly got a stranglehold on this country, I'd be New Zealand's version of the "filthy Mexican scourge."
Come to Canada first. It's easier to get citizenship here then go to another Commonwealth country.
post #121 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Come to Canada first. It's easier to get citizenship here then go to another Commonwealth country.
Good point. I'll actually be visiting Vancouver for the first time this coming fall. Can't fucking wait.
post #122 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
There are naturalized citizens who have been told to keep their papers locked in a secure location due to the difficulty and cost of replacing them. Now they're essentially being told to have them with them at all times in case a cop decides they don't look legal.
Driver's licenses and green cards aren't exactly things that aren't carried around. Especially for those getting paid by check. Yes that still happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Notice how there's never any mention of penalizing anyone who hires undocumented workers, as if supply exists without demand.
That's not true. The bill clearly has penalties for "knowingly employing unauthorized aliens" and "intentionally hiring unauthorized aliens". (Section 7 and Section 8 respectively)


Now look, there is no doubt there is a dangerous precedent set with,

Quote:
B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.



Now, most of my mother's family came to the U.S. from Vietnam and did so legally. I don't see why it is so hard for others to do that as well.

If you don't come here legally, and aren't showing motivation to become a citizen of this country or an authorized worker, then what is the purpose for being here? It really isn't hard to start paperwork to become legal or authorized.

I don't agree with all parts of this legislation, most notably leaving the decision and judgments to officers on determination of a person's legality. But at the same time having undocumented people in a state is costly and can lead to danger.

The best thing about this legislation may be the fact that there is more serious talk taking place in D.C. about what should be done.
post #123 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Good point. I'll actually be visiting Vancouver for the first time this coming fall. Can't fucking wait.
Van is beautiful but you need to head to the Island. It's well worth the ferry ride particularly in the fall.
post #124 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
Now, most of my mother's family came to the U.S. from Vietnam and did so legally. I don't see why it is so hard for others to do that as well.

If you don't come here legally, and aren't showing motivation to become a citizen of this country or an authorized worker, then what is the purpose for being here? It really isn't hard to start paperwork to become legal or authorized.
Money. You need a fair amount of money.
post #125 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Money. You need a fair amount of money.
Yeah because "boat people" had so much money... Obviously there were many things surrounding Vietnamese immigrants, but they came here, applied for visas and later citizenship.
post #126 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
Yeah because "boat people" had so much money... Obviously there were many things surrounding Vietnamese immigrants, but they came here, applied for visas and later citizenship.
Boat People could apply for political refugee status.

ETA: Unless it was before 1981 then they could apply for asylum.
post #127 of 354
Like I said, there were other things surround the Vietnamese immigrants, but it didn't mean it was a "walk in the park".

I would expect that you agree that the system needs to be changed and clearly defined, as to facilitate the ability of immigrants to get green cards and citizenship.
post #128 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
Yeah because "boat people" had so much money... Obviously there were many things surrounding Vietnamese immigrants, but they came here, applied for visas and later citizenship.
Unless I read it wrong, the paperwork costs $595, the fingerprinting (should you be between the ages of 14 and 79) will cost $80, and the Green Card itself will cost $930. Not exactly feasible to a lot of immigrants.
post #129 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
Like I said, there were other things surround the Vietnamese immigrants, but it didn't mean it was a "walk in the park".

I would expect that you agree that the system needs to be changed and clearly defined, as to facilitate the ability of immigrants to get green cards and citizenship.
Firstly, that was a huge difference for the Vietnamese people. I didn't say it made it easy but it does eliminate the need to have a certain amount in cash and possessions before you even apply for a green card. Many Mexican illegal immigrants are in a no-win situation because they lack that door.

Secondly, I do agree with that statement but it's unlikely to happen because every politician capable of winning wants to look like they're saving the jobs for Americans so they'll likely never ease those regulations.
post #130 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGButler View Post
Unless I read it wrong, the paperwork costs $595, the fingerprinting (should you be between the ages of 14 and 79) will cost $80, and the Green Card itself will cost $930. Not exactly feasible to a lot of immigrants.
My brother also needed to prove that he had over five thousand dollars worth of cash and possessions before he even thought of applying.
post #131 of 354
I'm not even sure what we are arguing here. I think we are probably all in agreement in what should be done, it was just the face I gave an example that doesn't exactly match the current situation.
post #132 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorF View Post
I'm not even sure what we are arguing here. I think we are probably all in agreement in what should be done, it was just the face I gave an example that doesn't exactly match the current situation.
It's part of the problem with comparing one era's immigration with another. There are so many factors at play that it's comparing apples and oranges.
post #133 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
I may be a nutjob for enjoying the schlocky movies I do, but I know this country was built on the backs of the tired, poor, and huddled masses.
Then stop saying you are worried about "immigrants" that don't pay taxes. That's like saying you're worried about black women that don't pay taxes.
post #134 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Then stop saying you are worried about "immigrants" that don't pay taxes. That's like saying you're worried about black women that don't pay taxes.
I'm worried about Oprah not paying taxes, does that count?
post #135 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Then stop saying you are worried about "immigrants" that don't pay taxes. That's like saying you're worried about black women that don't pay taxes.
Not really. Unless YOU equate "illegal" with "black". Do YOU, Cap?

EDIT: nevermind
post #136 of 354
The new law is already affecting businesses that cater to the Hispanic community.

Quote:
Hector Manrique takes a look around his taqueria and sighs. It's 3:30 in the afternoon, and usually around this time at least five or six tables are occupied by day laborers fresh off work, or schoolchildren and families in search of a torta or taco after school.

But today, Taqueria Guadalajara's plastic lawn chairs and tables are empty, and so is the tip jar on the counter. Street traffic in this predominantly Hispanic neighborhood of Phoenix, Arizona, is also lighter than usual, says Manrique, who opened the casual Mexican eatery in 2003.

Not even a week has passed since Gov. Jan Brewer signed into law tough measures targeting illegal immigrants, but Manrique and others who own businesses that cater primarily to Phoenix's large Hispanic community say they are already feeling the effects.

"I think they're afraid of being out on the streets knowing they're going to get pulled over by the sheriff," says Manrique, a Mexican-born U.S. citizen who has lived in Phoenix since the 1990s. "A lot of people told me they're afraid to go out even though the law's not fully passed."
Well look at that, driving minority businesses out of business. I'm sure there are a few people who aren't too broken up about that.
post #137 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Well look at that, driving minority businesses out of business. I'm sure there are a few people who aren't too broken up about that.
They should be. They'll pay for this.

Oh how they'll pay.
post #138 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
They should be. They'll pay for this.

Oh how they'll pay.
Are you trying to imply that the illegals will have an armed uprising?
post #139 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Awfully defensive about this issue with illegal immigration. What are you hiding?

"Yeah, let's see *his* papers!"

Scheesh. How quickly things turn sour in the Political Forums....
post #140 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
"Yeah, let's see *his* papers!"

Scheesh. How quickly things turn sour in the Political Forums....
What are YOU hiding???

"Alien Overlord" indeed. An illegal Alien Overlord?
post #141 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
What are YOU hiding???

"Alien Overlord" indeed. An illegal Alien Overlord?
As opposed to a Legal Alien Overlord?

Hell, I want to see my papers too. I think they're written in Sanskrit.
post #142 of 354
Should there be any restrictions (financial or otherwise) placed on people who wish to emigrate to the US?
post #143 of 354
post #144 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI's linked article
Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) wants to start deporting American citizens.

Not all American citizens, mind you. Just the natural-born American citizens that are the children of illegal immigrants.

Hmmm, I wonder how many generations back he'd like to go with that? Christ, these fucking people.

On the upside, though, we'd be rid of Michelle Malkin...
post #145 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Hmmm, I wonder how many generations back he'd like to go with that? Christ, these fucking people.
Yeah, but the (white) people that came over in the 1900's and before and all weren't illegal.
post #146 of 354
I'm a Canadian of European descent. I've been on EI for months, with conflicted intentions to either work, or enjoy my last few months of living at home. I'm perfectly healthy. I'd take a good job in a second, but most offers have been from crap places (retail, bad call centers), at which most people I know work. And it's not entirely enjoyable to have lots of free time on your hands - I was pretty directionless for a while - but I wouldn't whine and say I lead bad existence. No, I actually pissed off every right-wing white guy, or girl, whom I've met over the past six months. They can't stand it that a white guy is like "those lazy Indians" (even though those Native Americans actually aren't lazy, and most beggars are victims of Canada's Holocaust: residential schools).
post #147 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Then stop saying you are worried about "immigrants" that don't pay taxes. That's like saying you're worried about black women that don't pay taxes.
When it comes to illegal immigrants you have one of two choices.

1) they are being paid under the table and are not paying state / federal income taxes, medicare or social security.

or

2) they are using someone elses SS# and engaged in identity theft.

ETA. That includes illegal's from europe, china etc...
post #148 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
Are you trying to imply that the illegals will have an armed uprising?
It worked once before.


/The United States of America
post #149 of 354
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Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
It worked once before.


/The United States of America

Those were rich land-owning citizens of the British Empire. Not the same thing at all.
post #150 of 354
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Those were rich land-owning citizens of the British Empire. Not the same thing at all.
Go ask the Cherokee their opinion of it. I seem to remember a vast and diverse array of Native American societies inhabiting North America until a bunch of white people looking for work showed up.
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