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New Arizona immigration laws - Page 2

post #51 of 354
From what I keep hearing though... a lot keep saying that it will pretty much be "business as usual" in Arizona. Only now, there's more legal protection surrounding the way assholes like Sheriff Joe like to do things?
post #52 of 354
To think I was this |--| close to moving to Phoenix.
post #53 of 354
Quote:
I've got no problem with immigrants. I just want them to pay taxes like the rest of us. This statement comes on the heels of just owing Uncle Sam $1100 a week or so back.
Don't a lot of illegals pay into Social Security?
post #54 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
Don't a lot of illegals pay into Social Security?
If they're the ones who get fake documents, they pay a lot of shit. Pretty much the same as everyone else, only they never get to take it back (i.e. tax returns, etc.)
post #55 of 354
Yeah, that's what I thought.
post #56 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post

I've got no problem with immigrants. I just want them to pay taxes like the rest of us. This statement comes on the heels of just owing Uncle Sam $1100 a week or so back.

Immigrants pay taxes. I don't think they're all driving back to Juarez or La Paz and buying groceries or cars. Doubtful that many of them would be paying in anyway. If anything, they'd probably be eligible for as much tax relief as your average working class family.

And if anyone caught McCain this morning he was spinning this shit hardcore into being about "drugs" and the "cartels" in Mexico. Does anyone with the ability to be rational actually buy bullshit like that? I just want to know ahead of time so I can save the hassle and go straight to me knowing you're a moron instead of the whole "getting to know you" phase.
post #57 of 354
They're never going to understand that legalizing lesser drugs like marijuana would totally nix all this "cartel" business they're having so much trouble with, are they?

I mean, they'll just move on to the bigger stuff like cocaine and heroin, but it's a smaller pool to fish in at least. Of course, you could be really bold and legalize all of it and... poof. No more drug cartels. Problem solved. New (and less deadly) problem in place.
post #58 of 354
I have alot to say about this story, but the fact of the matter is that it's so frightening and it makes me so angry that I don't think I can contribute constructively without typing in all caps

Instead I'll just say that this is fascism and needs to be crushed, ASAP. As an American, and an Irish American to boot, I have little patience for those who want to play the immigrant blame game.

For the record: It's not a black and white issue and I actually support English as the national language (I think it's important for every American citizen, from any walk of life, to be able to walk up to another and have a conversation. A shared language is important for national identity and to prevent ghettoization for certain ethnic groups)

But yeah, to quote the late great 'Vin Costner, "When it looks like it, smells like it and sounds like it, you call it what it is: Fascism!"


"WTF, Arizona?"

Plus, how do law and order types think it's a good idea to rob the police of the ability to make judgement calls as to who is and is not important to pay attention to? The cartel must be loving this, because now the attention that the police might otherwise pay one of their operatives will be divided among every Hispanic person in Arizona.

PPS And the law was written by white supremacist neo nazis, as I learned last night on Ms Maddow's Prime Time News Hour..
post #59 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
They're never going to understand that legalizing lesser drugs like marijuana would totally nix all this "cartel" business they're having so much trouble with, are they?

I mean, they'll just move on to the bigger stuff like cocaine and heroin, but it's a smaller pool to fish in at least. Of course, you could be really bold and legalize all of it and... poof. No more drug cartels. Problem solved. New (and less deadly) problem in place.

That would make too much sense. What would the prison lobby do? They might actually have to get real fucking jobs. What value does a lobbyist have in a society where people actually don't fall for bullshit! Oh, the horror.....next thing you know we might have real health care options and no illegal immigration problem! THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!
post #60 of 354
I think the thing they fear the most about legalization is that suddenly the cartels that have been built up as this great boogeyman would suddenly become legitimate businesses.
post #61 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I think the thing they fear the most about legalization is that suddenly the cartels that have been built up as this great boogeyman would suddenly become legitimate businesses.
Not without a business license. Tax = cha-ching!!! Hello, Gov't boner!
post #62 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I think the thing they fear the most about legalization is that suddenly the cartels that have been built up as this great boogeyman would suddenly become legitimate businesses.
Um, no? We wouldn't be buying drugs from murderous gangsters decked out in ill fitting business suits, we'd be buying drugs from Phillip Morris and Phizer, just like always. Do you really think that Corporate America would let billions in business go to poor brown people covered in tattoos?

To quote the great film of 2004, LAYERCAKE:

Quote:
Always remember that one day all this drug monkey business will be legal. They won't leave it to people like me... not when they finally figure out how much money there is to be made - not millions, fucking billions. Recreational drugs PLC - giving the people what they want... Good times today, Stupor tomorrow. But this is now, so until prohibition ends make hay whilst the sun shines.
post #63 of 354
I don't remember the last time the Coors CEO Uzi'd his way into a board meeting of Anheuser-Busch and chopped off their CFO's head.

Actually, I think I'd respect them more if they actually did that. At least the Cartels don't try to drive down wages, break unions and be just general assholes..well, except for the random murders of civilians. That's uncool. But hey, you can't make an omelet without butchering a few hundred eggs in a bloody rampage of death or some shit.
post #64 of 354
The cartels would just switch to selling World of Warcraft gold and powerlevelling services, same as the Chinese.

Who cares about the cartels. Arizona has an immigration problem because business owners in states near the border have a bottomless appetite for exploitable, desperate workers. No other reason, none. The big money boys have enough influence to keep the borders as porous as a sieve, and they're untouchable enough that working class Arizona citizens have nobody to take their anger out on but the immigrants.

You could write an encyclopedia about all the episodes in our nation's history when the language of race has been used to obfuscate class issues, but you'd have to update the damn thing annually. Politicians keep going to the same well over and over again because it works.
post #65 of 354
No Irish, Quota-based immigration policies for Chinese and Japanese nationals, etc, etc. It really is the same story over and over in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Racism is just a tool of the trade to mask the real issues of class division and economic exploitation that still exist in this country.

The problem I have is more and more people who should fucking know better cling to this shit. We're not talking about poor, uneducated whites being thrown a few bones during Jim Crow to keep them from realizing that they had more in common with blacks than they did with the traditional economic and political structure. We're talking about middle class/upper middle class, educated people buying into these baseless arguments.

It's infuriating to me as someone who a. Has a brain and b. grew up around immigrant and migrant labor.
post #66 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
From what I keep hearing though... a lot keep saying that it will pretty much be "business as usual" in Arizona. Only now, there's more legal protection surrounding the way assholes like Sheriff Joe like to do things?
Essentially, yes.

I think most other states had forgotten our Governor Mecham issues at this point. Nobody remembers Chuck D and his ill-informed take on our MLK holiday issues any more. Every time the public consciousness moves past the latest Arizona racial issue our government decides it's time to screw up again.
post #67 of 354
You reminded me of my favorite bit from Pryor's Live on the Sunset Strip just now A-Pathetic.


"I went to penitentiary one time, not me personally, but me and Gene went there for a movie. "Arizona State Penitentiary" Population: 90 percent black people. But there are no black people in Arizona, they have to bus motherfuckers in!"

Between By The Time I Get To Arizona, my hatred of Miles Simon and this current travesty I can honestly say Arizona is probably the worst fucking place in the world. Steve Nash better not forget his papers....
post #68 of 354
Good piece in the New York Times:

Quote:
The city of Hazleton, Pa., passed a law that made it a crime for a landlord to rent an apartment to an undocumented immigrant. A federal district judge struck down the law on the ground that immigration is the business of the federal government, not of Hazleton, Pa.

Indeed, federal pre-emption would appear to be the most promising route for attacking the Arizona law. Supreme Court precedents make clear that immigration is a federal matter and that the Constitution does not authorize the states to conduct their own foreign policies.
And of course, the second this gets struck down by the court, I expect the "states rights" loonies will be in full throat.
post #69 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
What, they're reputation? Or do you mean "in the head?"
Their economy.

Their infrastructure is going to collapse if they can't depend on cheap labor. Meanwhile, tourism (what little I imagine they have) is going to drop like a stone.

This is the problem with treating illegal immigration like a simple problem with a simple solution.
post #70 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
New (and less deadly) problem in place.
Do you really think millions and millions of new addicts would prove less of a problem than this?

I'm willing to bet there is a higher percentage of the population that is alcoholic now as compared to pre-Prohibition days. Would that not even further cripple our Health Care System?
post #71 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
Do you really think millions and millions of new addicts would prove less of a problem than this?

I'm willing to bet there is a higher percentage of the population that is alcoholic now as compared to pre-Prohibition days. Would that not even further cripple our Health Care System?
If there would actually be "millions and millions" of new addicts, then MAYBE. Maybe.

But the trouble is, there wouldn't be. Damn near anyone who really wants to get drugs gets them, right now. It's quite easy, actually. That's the first on the list of faulty arguments against legalization. But... that's probably best for another thread altogether.
post #72 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
This is the problem with treating illegal immigration like a simple problem with a simple solution.
Yeah, but... if it's brown, flush it down. Ammirite, guys? Ammirite?
post #73 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Their economy.

Their infrastructure is going to collapse if they can't depend on cheap labor. Meanwhile, tourism (what little I imagine they have) is going to drop like a stone.
Between the Grand Canyon, Spring Training, and the resorts that are all over Scottsdale I think you greatly underestimate tourism here. We're already seeing conferences being cancelled in light of the new law, so we'll see how long before businesses start raising bloody hell.

Brewer is a bad person and a bad governor, and we got her because Napolitano (a bad person and a bad governor) got the call up to the big leagues. Our economy was screwed before this (as I've mentioned before, my wife is a teacher and I could tell you horror stories of the budget cuts on that side of things), but this certainly won't help.
post #74 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
Between the Grand Canyon, Spring Training, and the resorts that are all over Scottsdale I think you greatly underestimate tourism here. We're already seeing conferences being cancelled in light of the new law, so we'll see how long before businesses start raising bloody hell.

Brewer is a bad person and a bad governor, and we got her because Napolitano (a bad person and a bad governor) got the call up to the big leagues. Our economy was screwed before this (as I've mentioned before, my wife is a teacher and I could tell you horror stories of the budget cuts on that side of things), but this certainly won't help.
This is shameful but I forgot about the Grand Canyon! No disrespect to your state intended. The tourism thing is a nightmare I can only imagine about. But how much of the low-scale work force depends on illegal immigrants? I'd imagine (just like everywhere else) that it's quite a bit. And if they really start cracking down, that's when things really start to hurt and the price of everyday goods skyrocket.
post #75 of 354
post #76 of 354
I would love to see the police start detaining middle aged white people for not carrying around their birth certificate. I wonder how fast opinions would change if grandma had to spend a day or two in jail.
post #77 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
Do you really think millions and millions of new addicts would prove less of a problem than this?

I'm willing to bet there is a higher percentage of the population that is alcoholic now as compared to pre-Prohibition days. Would that not even further cripple our Health Care System?
Do you honestly think that people are sitting around lamenting the fact that they'd love to shoot some horse, if only their hands were not tied by this darned prohibition?

All drug legalization would do is stop crime, not create addicts.
post #78 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
Do you really think millions and millions of new addicts would prove less of a problem than this?

I'm willing to bet there is a higher percentage of the population that is alcoholic now as compared to pre-Prohibition days. Would that not even further cripple our Health Care System?
Hard to judge. Stats of alcoholism are, as you would imagine, hard to come by. Americans drink more alcohol per capita then they did before prohibition (2.18 gallons versus 1.8 gallons) but cirrhosis levels are about the same. One study I read said it's likely that the stats are about the same or, at the very least, statistically insignificant.
post #79 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
This is shameful but I forgot about the Grand Canyon! No disrespect to your state intended. The tourism thing is a nightmare I can only imagine about. But how much of the low-scale work force depends on illegal immigrants? I'd imagine (just like everywhere else) that it's quite a bit. And if they really start cracking down, that's when things really start to hurt and the price of everyday goods skyrocket.
In the greater Phoenix metro area they've already cracked down on the employee citizenship quite a bit. I don't anticipate this impacting the economy in that way. For a couple of years they've required employers to use "E-Verify" (whatever that is) for each of their employees. If you are found to have a non-citizen on your payroll and can validate that you ran them through E-Verify, you're safe. If you didn't, you eat a gigantic fine.

Obviously this doesn't impact the REALLY small scale businesses that can drive by and pick up laborers for a days wages, and those (and private citizens) are the people who will be impacted by the new law.

A few times over the past few years I've utilized day laborers for work I was doing in my yard. There are probably a half dozen areas around different metro Phoenix suburbs where the poor guys line up in the sun all day long just hoping to pick up one job to help feed their families. I figure I can pay them a better wage than a lot of those unscrupulous contractors will, I can give them a meal and make sure they have lots of water and they're nothing but happy for the chance. Now? With the new law I can be nailed just for transporting an undocumented citizen in my car. Realistically the chances of me being hit for this are slim, but how hard would it be for local cops to stake out those areas where the laborers are waiting for work and pull people over? Not hard at all.
post #80 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by seacup_79 View Post
I would love to see the police start detaining middle aged white people for not carrying around their birth certificate. I wonder how fast opinions would change if grandma had to spend a day or two in jail.
Given the tans on some of the grandmas I saw in AZ, I think they could reasonably be checked for ID.

I'd better warn my brother not to go to Arizona. He never carries his green (pink, actually) card with him and he looks hispanic.
post #81 of 354
If your brother legitimizes this travesty by getting his Canadian ass arrested, you'd better punch him in the mouth for all of us.

ETA: Hyperbole was for emphasis. I'm sure he's a lovely young man, kind to old ladies, et cetera.
post #82 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post
If your brother legitimizes this travesty by getting his Canadian ass arrested, you'd better punch him in the mouth for all of us.

ETA: Hyperbole was for emphasis. I'm sure he's a lovely young man, kind to old ladies, et cetera.
He's such good people that he'd likely start an intramural floor hockey team while he's in prison plus teach some Mexican with Down's Syndrome how to read. I don't know where my parents went right with him.
post #83 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Same thing happened to me when I went in to change my address.

I've got no problem with immigrants. I just want them to pay taxes like the rest of us. This statement comes on the heels of just owing Uncle Sam $1100 a week or so back.
Most illegal immigrants pay taxes. In fact, they probably pay more than you? You know why? Because they're all salaried employees working for minimum wage (sometimes less). Their employers withhold the required taxes but, being illegals, the employees don't file their tax returns so that they can get money back, which the US government owes to them.
post #84 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
By the way, this is exactly the thing I tried to caution ElCapitan about in the mAnn Coulter thread. Now, for him, his country has 49 states and one passport-required protectorate.
This has nothing to do with what I was talking about in the Ann Coulter thread.

"My" country still has 50 states, but as was the case always, some states are worth visiting more than others. Arizona just accelerated its fall to the bottom of that list for me.
post #85 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
I've got no problem with immigrants. I just want them to pay taxes like the rest of us.
Can anybody point out the fundamental flaw in the above pair of sentences?
post #86 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
This has nothing to do with what I was talking about in the Ann Coulter thread.

"My" country still has 50 states, but as was the case always, some states are worth visiting more than others. Arizona just accelerated its fall to the bottom of that list for me.
I can't tell whether you're just rationalizing or if you genuinely believe it's that mundane an issue. I'm not the one who needs to make sure my papers are in order should I find myself in Arizona and it bugs the crap out of me.
post #87 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
I can't tell whether you're just rationalizing or if you genuinely believe it's that mundane an issue. I'm not the one who needs to make sure my papers are in order should I find myself in Arizona and it bugs the crap out of me.
You just need a drivers license, if you don't have that then yes... you need other forms of ID to prove you are who you say you are. It's no different than if a police officer were to pull you over, the questionable bit is justification.. it isn't like they're just targeting drivers who have broken the law.. how do you justify ID'ing someone crossing a road or hanging out at Home Depot.

He looked.... illegal. (OMGHAXRACIST!)
post #88 of 354
Rationalizing? Wow. Not what I'm saying at all, but I do find your suggestion very insulting.

What I mean is that I don't consider myself any less of a citizen than anybody else, even when a state passes a stupid law like this one. At the end of the day, Arizona doesn't define my citizenship, but what it does do is add itself to a statewide ignore list that I hope has some dire economic impact on the whole state.

I also find your original point on that Ann Coulter thread even more insulting. You basically insinuated that my free speech stance was entirely conditional, that if she was insulting Hispanics (which I'm sure she's done at one point in her career) I wouldn't believe what I believe at all. In essence, I was either a cynical hypocrite or a couldn't see past my race. Either option almost equally insulting as the other.
post #89 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Hard to judge. Stats of alcoholism are, as you would imagine, hard to come by. Americans drink more alcohol per capita then they did before prohibition (2.18 gallons versus 1.8 gallons) but cirrhosis levels are about the same. One study I read said it's likely that the stats are about the same or, at the very least, statistically insignificant.
Yeah now consider the millions of dollars spent on advertising for various alcoholic products, then think about millions spent on advertising cocaine, heroin etc.

Then think about the fact that these "new drugs" are designed in a laboratory to addict the user as efficiently as possible. (EG Meth).

Oh and even if advertising on TV and magazines were bagged, could you ban viral marketing techniques like YouTube, email, etc.?

Legalizing drugs would guarantee millions of new addicts plus a super rich interest group in Washington able to make sure things stay the same.
post #90 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
What I mean is that I don't consider myself any less of a citizen than anybody else, even when a state passes a stupid law like this one. At the end of the day, Arizona doesn't define my citizenship, but what it does do is add itself to a statewide ignore list that I hope has some dire economic impact on the whole state.
So when it happens in Florida, you'll what...move?
post #91 of 354
I doubt it would pass here in FL, I also doubt this will hold up constitutionally to be quite honest.

Not sure what you want me to say, that I'm going to leave the US because the people of Arizona are idiotic?
post #92 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Yeah now consider the millions of dollars spent on advertising for various alcoholic products, then think about millions spent on advertising cocaine, heroin etc.

Then think about the fact that these "new drugs" are designed in a laboratory to addict the user as efficiently as possible. (EG Meth).

Oh and even if advertising on TV and magazines were bagged, could you ban viral marketing techniques like YouTube, email, etc.?

Legalizing drugs would guarantee millions of new addicts plus a super rich interest group in Washington able to make sure things stay the same.
It's just a question of what's worse to you, although I think your prediction is a bit of a stretch. "Millions" is a ridiculous number to throw out.

But, what's worse? Because you will NEVER, ever ever ever stop shit like these cartels, organized crime dealing in drugs, etc. Ever. Can't.

Does it then just become moral high-ground of deciding to constantly "fight the good fight?"
post #93 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
that I'm going to leave the US because the people of Arizona are idiotic?
Hi there.
post #94 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Yeah now consider the millions of dollars spent on advertising for various alcoholic products, then think about millions spent on advertising cocaine, heroin etc.

Then think about the fact that these "new drugs" are designed in a laboratory to addict the user as efficiently as possible. (EG Meth).

Oh and even if advertising on TV and magazines were bagged, could you ban viral marketing techniques like YouTube, email, etc.?

Legalizing drugs would guarantee millions of new addicts plus a super rich interest group in Washington able to make sure things stay the same.
I'm on the fence on legalization so I don't really care but I couldn't just let the comment about higher rates of alcoholism just sit there without being challenged.

As far as faster addicting drugs, yeah, like that's never happened under the auspices of legal drugs before.
post #95 of 354
Thread Starter 
Why not just decriminalise instead of legalize? Always seemed like a sensible middle ground to me.
post #96 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
You just need a drivers license, if you don't have that then yes... you need other forms of ID to prove you are who you say you are. It's no different than if a police officer were to pull you over, the questionable bit is justification.. it isn't like they're just targeting drivers who have broken the law.. how do you justify ID'ing someone crossing a road or hanging out at Home Depot.

He looked.... illegal. (OMGHAXRACIST!)
Correct me if I'm wrong but if a cop asks to see my ID, don't I have every right to say "No."
post #97 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but if a cop asks to see my ID, don't I have every right to say "No."
I believe that partially depends upon what state you live in. This website has more information, but it specifically mentions:

Quote:
This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

<snip>

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity.
Of course, if you're in one of those 24 states, "reasonable suspicion" is going to be interpreted by the cop, so you're taking a real chance if you refuse. Charges might not stick, but you'll still be inconvenienced or worse.
post #98 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
Immigrants pay taxes. I don't think they're all driving back to Juarez or La Paz and buying groceries or cars. Doubtful that many of them would be paying in anyway. If anything, they'd probably be eligible for as much tax relief as your average working class family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Most illegal immigrants pay taxes. In fact, they probably pay more than you? You know why? Because they're all salaried employees working for minimum wage (sometimes less). Their employers withhold the required taxes but, being illegals, the employees don't file their tax returns so that they can get money back, which the US government owes to them.
Don't for a minute think there aren't immigrants (with the same kind of false documents) taking full advantage of our country's welfare system. And NOT working. At all.

Whatever tax you think is being paid into the system is negated by the individuals who are exploiting that same system.

And people who make below a certain amount (see my wife for instance) don't get any tax taken out. Zero. So when we file jointly, her total pittance just adds to our total amount of taxed income... That means I have to pay for the tax that wasn't removed from her paycheck.

Also, ever hear of "working under the table". You think that doesn't go on? No tax. No paper trail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccubed View Post
Of course, if you're in one of those 24 states, "reasonable suspicion" is going to be interpreted by the cop, so you're taking a real chance if you refuse. Charges might not stick, but you'll still be inconvenienced or worse.
And refusing to show said identification (like refusing to open your trunk) can raise that suspicion.
post #99 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Don't for a minute think there aren't immigrants (with the same kind of false documents) taking full advantage of our country's welfare system. And NOT working. At all.

Whatever tax you think is being paid into the system is negated by the individuals who are exploiting that same system.
Yeah? Got any links to studies or statistics that back that up, or are you just sure of it?
post #100 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Yeah? Got any links to studies or statistics that back that up, or are you just sure of it?
It's called human nature.

If there are immigrants with false documentation to work, there are immigrants with false documention to NOT work. It may be an assumption. I have not thoroughly researched this, but I didn't see links proving that these illegal workers are paying taxes. Then why is that asked of me?

Why not pick apart the fact that the 2 quotes I had in my post above contradict each other. Do illegal immigrants pay taxes or not?

EDIT: I always regret stepping into the politics forum.
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