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Mad Men - Season 4 - Page 8

post #351 of 1040
8/17/10 at 7:18pm



It's funny how good Pete's life is going for him. Especially in comparison to Don. Don is getting the shit kicked out of him this season.


The Don Draper MO:

This never happened. It will shock you how much this never happened.


Allison to Don:

This actually happened!
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post #352 of 1040
8/17/10 at 7:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by machiav View Post

The Don Draper MO:

This never happened. It will shock you how much this never happened.


Allison to Don:

This actually happened!
On the same episode in which Peggy is emotionally blindsided by how much it did happen. Good catch.
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post #353 of 1040
8/17/10 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
it all was just this side of too on the nose.
I swear I'm going to lose it the next time someone uses that phrase while describing some small detail in Mad Men. It's become its own cliché, actually.

This show gives us 30x more subtlety than almost anything else on television, I think occasional moments of more overt presentation are forgivable. It's like we're addicted to reading the hidden, secret subtext to every line delivered, and we're disappointed when a character says what they actually think.

Edit: I don't mean to come off as dismissive of legitimate criticism of Mad Men, I just have a pet peeve with the way "on the nose" gets used a little too often.
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post #354 of 1040
8/17/10 at 8:49pm
(Double Post).
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post #355 of 1040
8/17/10 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
She also says that when Joan retrieved the pencils from the ceiling the previous episode, that was inaccurate. She says that people DID throw pencils into the ceiling, and someone must have told Matthew Weiner this, but that it only happened in offices and art rooms, out of the way areas. It would not have happened in the middle of the ceiling in the main area of the SDCP (or whatever the acronym is) office
I saw this as her cleaning up after the party. So given there are art rooms and such, pencils on the ceiling would not be too surprising.
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post #356 of 1040
8/17/10 at 9:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Lively View Post
This show gives us 30x more subtlety than almost anything else on television, I think occasional moments of more overt presentation are forgivable. It's like we're addicted to reading the hidden, secret subtext to every line delivered, and we're disappointed when a character says what they actually think.
I wasn't referring exclusively to the dialogue.

Quote:
Edit: I don't mean to come off as dismissive of legitimate criticism of Mad Men, I just have a pet peeve with the way "on the nose" gets used a little too often.
Did I use it wrong? Or say I was gonna stop watching? Take it easy, amigo.
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post #357 of 1040
8/18/10 at 7:42am
Sorry Lively, I gotta agree with Phil's usage of on the nose. Mad Men doesn't really do bad episodes, but this one hit me much less than the last three, and mostly because for a show that has an almost absolute mastery of subtext, they were awfully clear about their points here.
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post #358 of 1040
8/18/10 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
I saw this as her cleaning up after the party. So given there are art rooms and such, pencils on the ceiling would not be too surprising.
Fair enough, MBN. I don't always agree with my mom about her criticisms (she is much more into the show than I am), but all the same I thought I'd post some of them because of her unique perspective on the whole thing
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post #359 of 1040
8/19/10 at 12:20am
I approve of the addition of Jessica Pare' as the front receptionist hot stuff. Even Peggy's friends wanted to see her again!

Goodbye, Allison. She's gone the way of Sal, folks.

Also, Don's old lady secretary was the same actress who was Daniel Larusso's mom in the original Karate Kid. Oh, the ravages of time!
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post #360 of 1040
8/19/10 at 12:30am
I knew I recognized her. That reminds me, my wife has a copy of Lost and Delirious around here somewhere...
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post #361 of 1040
8/19/10 at 12:56am
Much as I love this show, I don't think it's ever really been subtle in terms of its themes. Much like the Sopranos, they tend to deal in pretty big, obvious metaphors. It's not exposition-heavy in the way bad TV is, where nothing can be left for the viewer to figure out on there own, but it's also not quite Deadwood or Generation Kill in terms of nuance.
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post #362 of 1040
8/19/10 at 1:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpel007 View Post
but his personal life is in complete taters.
Officially my new favorite phrase
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post #363 of 1040
8/19/10 at 2:15am
When the show opened with Pete having to shed his father-in-law's account, together with the chance meeting with Cosgrove, I was expecting it to end with Pete offering him Clearasil in exchange for some other account.

I was glad to be wrong, since that power grab scene was great.
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post #364 of 1040
8/19/10 at 3:41am
Quote:
Goodbye, Allison. She's gone the way of Sal, folks
You would think so, but Mathew Weiner really loves this actress. And she's such a great secretary! And Don will probably feel guilty about it. I don't think we've seen the last of her.


So the lesbian photo editor after Peggy is David Mamet's (and Lindsay Crouse's) daughter.



"Zosia Mamet"
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post #365 of 1040
8/19/10 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
Much as I love this show, I don't think it's ever really been subtle in terms of its themes. Much like the Sopranos, they tend to deal in pretty big, obvious metaphors. It's not exposition-heavy in the way bad TV is, where nothing can be left for the viewer to figure out on there own, but it's also not quite Deadwood or Generation Kill in terms of nuance.
I haven't seen Generation Kill, but I just finished watching Deadwood last night. It's a good show, but I don't get how it's more nuanced than Mad Men. Mad Men may employ some obvious surface symbolism regularly, but it tends to bury a fair bit of it, as well. And it's definitely more subtle than Deadwood in terms of character.
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post #366 of 1040
8/19/10 at 1:40pm
I feel like there's large sections of season two and three where smart people can have completely different understandings of why characters did something. Duck abandoning his dog, for example.

I love me some Deadwood, and I think one of its chief virtues is how much it said with the dialogue. Mad Men is almost the opposite.
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post #367 of 1040
8/19/10 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
Much as I love this show, I don't think it's ever really been subtle in terms of its themes. Much like the Sopranos, they tend to deal in pretty big, obvious metaphors. It's not exposition-heavy in the way bad TV is, where nothing can be left for the viewer to figure out on there own, but it's also not quite Deadwood or Generation Kill in terms of nuance.
I completely disagree with everything in this post. There have been some heavy handed episodes, and some on the nose moments, but a great deal of it is subtle and handled with great restraint. Think of the season one episode where Don builds the playhouse. That's as subtle as anything on the Sopranos. Probably more-so.

And metaphors only work when they're obvious enough that people can think about them and figure them out. So I never really understood the complaint that the show has "obvious metaphors." If the metahpors aren't obvious to some degree, what good are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
I love me some Deadwood, and I think one of its chief virtues is how much it said with the dialogue. Mad Men is almost the opposite.
I'm not a big fan of Deadwood, but yes. The dialogue drives the action with that show. You get that to a certain extent with Mad Men, but Don virtually never lets people in. I think his confession in season 3 to Betty is one of the few times he spilled his guts to another character, and that was just because he kinda had to. Most of his motivation is explained in other ways, usually visually.
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post #368 of 1040
8/19/10 at 5:35pm
Alan Sepinwall interview with John Slattery. For his first time directing anything, I thought he did a helluva job.
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post #369 of 1040
8/19/10 at 11:41pm
Quite late to the party this week and it's been mentioned before, several times, but fuck it: one more zomg for Pete's shrug.
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post #370 of 1040
8/21/10 at 3:26pm
Don't get me wrong, the episode was great, but I felt like I was watching a completely different show as compared to the rest of the series. There's a huge lack of subtlety in the episode, and altogether way more straightforward comedy. Don's new secretary, and the last scene for example, with the old man asking about the pears? Both seemed out of place and did not belong in this show, IMO.
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post #371 of 1040
8/22/10 at 11:35pm
"How does she not tip over" is early favorite for line of the season.
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post #372 of 1040
8/23/10 at 12:12am
Has anyone noticed they're using the word "shit" more often? Were they always able to say it or did AMC give them special licence to use it and so now they're taking advantage of it?
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post #373 of 1040
8/23/10 at 12:43am
Thread Starter 
This one ain't gonna win over any Betty haters.
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post #374 of 1040
8/23/10 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
This one ain't gonna win over any Betty haters.
Yeah, that was rough. But the fact is, it actually should because it underlines what they've been missing the entire time. She's seriously fucked up and she doesn't know what to do about it. I'm glad she's back in therapy...with a better therapist. And I'm glad Sally is too. Hopefully, that will help their relationship grow.

Also, her husband is kinda perfect for her. I kept waiting for him to be a giant douche, but I guess they're not going that way.

Best episode of the season, if you ask me. The Honda-fake out was incredible.

Anyone else think Don's gonna end up with Dr. Miller? Are they pushing that too hard as a fake out, or is it going to happen....eventually?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Kane View Post
"How does she not tip over" is early favorite for line of the season.
Personally, I liked the follow up exchange.

"Well, they're not subtle."

"No. They're not."
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post #375 of 1040
8/23/10 at 1:15am
Excellent episode. The evils of female masturbation! I felt my feminist lit teacher from college sense a disturbance in the force. 4 times a week for therapy seems a bit excessive. This episode won't please the Betty haters, but I was thinking of this thread the entire time I was watching the show. (Well, when not thinking of Joan's subtleties.)

Betty getting therapy with a child therapist in a room filled with toys. Everyone in the room going Whoa when she just slaps Sally. Betty is messed up, and has been. I, too, expected the new husband to be an ass, but he may actually be good for Betty. Poor Bobby is never going to realize how screwed up his family is, even when, in the future, his sister spits on her mother's grave.
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post #376 of 1040
8/23/10 at 1:19am
Episodes like this is why I look forward to Sunday nights.
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post #377 of 1040
8/23/10 at 1:24am
This episode was so much fun. It reminded me of last season's finale. I always love the show but it is at its best when Draper's wheels are spinning.
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post #378 of 1040
8/23/10 at 1:42am
Yeah, the Honda fake out was a stroke of genius. Weird to introduce a competitive firm and central nemesis so fast and kill it off at the same speed. Peggy's little bike ride was as cute as she poking her head up the window last episode.

Betty's slap was rough. Henry seems to be the best person of the entire show. Sally continues to develop into one of the strongest characters.

And the power struggle between Pete and Roger is fascinating. Some people asked what Cooper brought to the table. He proved it this episode. He's got wisdom, culture and experience out of the ass.
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post #379 of 1040
8/23/10 at 2:08am
Great episode, for all the reasons previously mentioned. As a Betty hater, I agree with Parkers post. I also think the therapist angle may lead to the revelation that Bettys father molested both her and Sally.
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post #380 of 1040
8/23/10 at 2:09am
Definitely got a Tony Soprano vibe from Betty when she met with Dr. Edna. The meeting was supposed to be about Sally but she made it about herself. And Carla taking Sally to her first therapy appointment...fuck.
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post #381 of 1040
8/23/10 at 2:16am
God, fuck Betty.
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post #382 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker
Also, her husband is kinda perfect for her.
You mean her new dad?

His instructions to Betty on how to handle Sally after the haircut were delivered like he was talking to a child... and they sounded an awful lot like how he handles Betty herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTyres
Betty getting therapy with a child therapist in a room filled with toys.
And then there's that.

The Honda stuff was all gold. I didn't see Don's plan coming, which made it all the more fun to watch. Sterling's anti-Japanese insults were so messed up - I loved how the translator just sat there in silence. During all his WWII rants, I kept thinking, "Wasn't Don in WWII?" It seemed like he could've shut down the lectures even sooner than he did.

Also, did we ever find out who the person was that Sterling mentioned before he stormed out of their partners' meeting?
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post #383 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:10am
Sally Draper: closet Man From UNCLE fan. Who knew?

Man, Miss Blankenship was killing it tonight.

And, yep, we definitely need a .gif of Peggy riding that scooter around the studio.
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post #384 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:11am
Don was in the Korean War.
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post #385 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
You mean her new dad?

His instructions to Betty on how to handle Sally after the haircut were delivered like he was talking to a child... and they sounded an awful lot like how he handles Betty herself.
My thoughts exactly. This episode showed that Henry's a nice guy, but that his relationship with Betty is kind of fucked up.
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post #386 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:29am
Seriously Kiernan Shipka deserves an Emmy nod if they keep it going where its going.

Pete busting into Roger's office and not holding back was great, Ive really like how they have slowly, had him coming to his senses at the new firm.
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post #387 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:30am
Loved how the therapist pretty much ended up treating Betty as a child as well. You could just tell she could see through all the shit Betty was spewing.

Each new episode I'm enjoying Pete more and more. Good to see Don take his side.
Anyone else annoyed with the "Med Men" style commercials?
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post #388 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:43am
Just read the AV Club review and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks Don will end up with Faye based on her shocking resemblance to Betty.
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post #389 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
My thoughts exactly. This episode showed that Henry's a nice guy, but that his relationship with Betty is kind of fucked up.
I don't know. He sounded to me like he was talking to someone whom he loves very much who happened to do something pretty fucking awful. He was treading dangerous waters and handling it in a mature way. He wasn't being condescending. He wasn't being dismissive. Other than how fast they got married, what exactly is fucked up about their relationship?

The way he talks to her about therapy is the same kind of example. He wants to hear more about it. He listens to her, or at least wants to. Don mostly viewed her as a problem to solve. I don't think this guy does.

Also, Grampa Gene molested both lady Drapers? That's a bit much, isn't it?

I also don't agree with the AV Club review (which is weird, because I usually do). The great thing about Betty and Don fighting is that they're both right, they both have a point in the argument.

And yes, she hits Sally and tells her she's going to cut her fingers off. But that's just to set up to remind everybody how fucked up she is. People seem to be forgetting that shit. She's been fucked up for a while. Since, you know, the show started. And she's been through a lot since then. People are acting as if the only interesting thing about her character, the only important thing she ever went through, is divorcing Don.
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post #390 of 1040
8/23/10 at 3:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
Anyone else annoyed with the "Med Men" style commercials?
Yes. Especially the ones that open with a slight pan through the office, because for a split second I think the show's back on and pay attention, and then the two guys show up and I think 'who the fuck are these guys?' and then I realize it's still a commercial and I'm angry at whatever it is they're advertising.

My favourite sort of subtle bit this episode: The re-ordering of the gifts. Why Pete thought giving a cantaloupe to the head guy and whisky to the second and the interpreter was a good idea I have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker
I don't know. He sounded to me like he was talking to someone whom he loves very much who happened to do something pretty fucking awful. He was treading dangerous waters and handling it in a mature way. He wasn't being condescending. He wasn't being dismissive. Other than how fast they got married, what exactly is fucked up about their relationship?
You didn't get a sense of him dressing her down in a kindly, yet paternal, manner after she slaps Sally, and Betty being childishly contrite about it? Yeah, he listens to her and tries to be understanding, but it feels like the way a father listens to his daughter's problems, not the way a husband listens to his wife's. Even his courtship of her in Season 3 was intentionally playing into her fantasies of a knight in shining armour coming and saving her from her awful existence.

And there were hints that Gene may have molested Betty, but I don't buy for a second that he laid a hand on Sally.
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post #391 of 1040
8/23/10 at 4:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
This one ain't gonna win over any Betty haters.
And it bugs me more than it probably should because it doesn't change her narrative one iota, yet, to them, it probably reinforces the idea that she never was anything but a bitch in the first place.

So did Don effectively end that guy's advertising career? Will he go on to design the ending to Metroid?
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post #392 of 1040
8/23/10 at 4:40am
Thread Starter 
Gene was, in the short time we knew him, the only sraight-shooter on the show, a confused codger whose dementia gave his words a clarity with which no one else dared speak. He grabbed Betty's tit because he thought it was his wife. I refuse to accept any molestation retcon.
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post #393 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
And it bugs me more than it probably should because it doesn't change her narrative one iota, yet, to them, it probably reinforces the idea that she never was anything but a bitch in the first place.
Why are people defending a physically and emotionally abusive parent?

She threatened to cut her child's fingers off for Christs sake! Seriously, fuck Betty, she's an awful human being and were she a real person I'd want to keep my kids as far away from her psycho ass as possible.
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post #394 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:30am
Thread Starter 
I agree in life we need to make snap judgments about certain people and whether to steer clear of them. But from the safe distance of fictional television it's more interesting and rewarding to dig deeper. We're not defending Betty (or again, anyone on the show), so much as we are enjoying the explorations of the characters. Black & white TV "heels" are for soap operas* and wrestling.

*Not always!
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post #395 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:41am
A sterling (ba-dum-tsh) episode for Bert Cooper, taking charge with the Honda guys. Good to see him stepping up, but is there anything in his history we know of which would make him so knowledgeable about Japanese customs?

Don's pitch? Awesome. (Was his cheque for $3,001?)

I'm looking forward to seeing where Betty goes from here, whether the child psych will help her out or not.

I hope they get rid of Drapers secretary and replace her with someone competent. The jokes getting old.
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post #396 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Allen View Post
A sterling (ba-dum-tsh) episode for Bert Cooper, taking charge with the Honda guys. Good to see him stepping up, but is there anything in his history we know of which would make him so knowledgeable about Japanese customs?

Don's pitch? Awesome. (Was his cheque for $3,001?)

I'm looking forward to seeing where Betty goes from here, whether the child psych will help her out or not.

I hope they get rid of Drapers secretary and replace her with someone competent. The jokes getting old.
Pretty sure it was 3000 dollars and 00/100 cents.

You have to take your shoes off before entering Cooper's office. Is it any wonder he knows a little bit about the Japanese?

Sally Draper's masturbation was perfect.
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post #397 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
You have to take your shoes off before entering Cooper's office. Is it any wonder he knows a little bit about the Japanese?
Nice catch!

And agree with Paul Allen about being tired of Wacky Old Secretary already.
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post #398 of 1040
8/23/10 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
And agree with Paul Allen about being tired of Wacky Old Secretary already.
Yeah, I was expecting the episode to end with Don firing the lady. Surely there are more competent secretaries.
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post #399 of 1040
8/23/10 at 6:02am
Thread Starter 
I read this article before watching the episode. After the final conversation about Honda's cars in the episode, I read it again. Crazy shit.

Quote:
ast year, AMC’s Mad Men included a storyline about McCann Erickson taking over Don Draper’s fictional ad agency, Sterling Cooper, which so charmed the real-life agency that for a brief period it replaced its homepage with a video montage of all the times McCann was mentioned in the show. McCann also bought some ads in the trade mags welcoming their non-existent new employees from Sterling Cooper.

Last night, however, Mad Men’s fictional McCann account director Ken Cosgrove went into an extended riff about how much he hated his agency. He compared McCann to a hospital his mom worked at:

"I never thought I’d see as many retards in one building."

Ouch! You can bet that won’t make it onto McCann’s web site any time soon.
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post #400 of 1040
8/23/10 at 6:34am
Thread Starter 
I found a sadness in Roger's anti-Japanese hostility. Roger's always painted as the good-time Charlie, an affable, close to the vest guy. After his racist rants, he kept trying to open up about the horror of losing all his friends in WWII, kept trying to share. We see that he's carrying around just as much unresolved pain as anyone else on the show. And everyone (including Joan) is all "No one cares, Roger. Stop fucking up the business."
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