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The 30th anniversary of Friday the 13th is upon us...

post #1 of 47
4/22/10 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 
May 9th to be exact. The news that the sequel to the rebootquelmake is apparently dead is, as a fan, a bit depressing to me and puts a bit of a damper on this thread which I thought up just a few hours before hearing the news, but I'll do it anyway.

So 30 years since a woman who looked curiously like Mr. Ed chopped up a bunch of kids and whose retarded dead son would be inexplicably resurrected in the sequel and retard-scurry his way into pop culture history. 30 years. So I say all that to say this. Is it a classic? I don't think I've heard this, this is a conversation I've never really had. Halloween is a classic, Texas Chainsaw Massacre is a classic, but Friday the 13th, despite it's longevity, has always been the bastard. Has it been long enough? Has the ripple effect been large enough? Do we dare make the argument?
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post #2 of 47
4/22/10 at 4:56pm
It's a classic purely as a result of its cultural impact. From a film perspective, it's a terrible piece of cinema.
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post #3 of 47
4/22/10 at 4:59pm
As many classics are.

But let's not turn into another "I have no taste thread"
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post #4 of 47
4/22/10 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
Friday the 13th, despite it's longevity, has always been the bastard.
I thought it was "the retard".
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post #5 of 47
4/22/10 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
I thought it was "the retard".
You can be both. Growing up, I had a neighbor like that.
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post #6 of 47
4/22/10 at 7:11pm
Too fundamentally flawed to be a classic. It's not up there with THE EXORCIST, THE SHINING or even HALLOWEEN. A staple, yes. A classic, no. Not now, not ever.
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post #7 of 47
4/23/10 at 12:53pm
Man, 1970 to 1985 or so really was the last true Golden Age of horror, wasn't it? Everything since feels like variations on the genre-defining stuff from that time.
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post #8 of 47
4/23/10 at 1:17pm
I suppose it depends on one's exact definition of "classic." If we are talking purely quality, then there's no way the film can be. It's simply not a good piece of cinema. I mean, it doesn't even get its own structure right. We SHOULD have heard the Jason story at the beginning of the movie. Or ANY story. You know, so we could wonder who is doing all the killing. There should've at least been a red-herring. Or two.

But when talking about film - especially genre film - I generally use classic to refer to anything that had major influence or impact. In which case FRIDAY definitely is a classic. HALLOWEEN made the masked killer big. FRIDAY THE 13th made the kids-trapped-in-the-woods idea big.

Oddly enough, Jason was by far my favorite 'monster' growing up. So I hated the first film when I finally saw it. "Where the hell is Jason?" I vividly recall thinking.
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post #9 of 47
4/23/10 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyWorm View Post
I suppose it depends on one's exact definition of "classic." If we are talking purely quality, then there's no way the film can be. It's simply not a good piece of cinema. I mean, it doesn't even get its own structure right. We SHOULD have heard the Jason story at the beginning of the movie. Or ANY story. You know, so we could wonder who is doing all the killing. There should've at least been a red-herring. Or two.
To be fair, Steve Christy is a red-herring, a poorly set-up one, but he is. His relationship with Alice, his jeep, and his leaving the camp are total set-ups. Bill is sort of a red-herring, when he kills the snake with the machete and the camera captures that glower on his face, it feels like more than just a reaction shot. Shit, Crazy Ralph is a red-herring too.

The biggest failure is not introducing Mrs. Voorhees earlier. Had they not fucked that up, the structure of the film wouldn't be attacked as often as it is. Also, I'd like to add that it always made zero sense that Alice would dream about Jason looking exactly as he did as a child when she'd only just been made aware of him by his mother who offered no details about the boy.
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post #10 of 47
4/23/10 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
Man, 1970 to 1985 or so really was the last true Golden Age of horror, wasn't it? Everything since feels like variations on the genre-defining stuff from that time.
I don't know. The new millenium has brought some amazing stuff to the genre. If you dig below the surface--past the Platinum Dunes remakes and J-Horror junk--there's, in my opinion, quite a little renaissance going on.
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post #11 of 47
4/23/10 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
To be fair, Steve Christy is a red-herring, a poorly set-up one, but he is. His relationship with Alice, his jeep, and his leaving the camp are total set-ups. Bill is sort of a red-herring, when he kills the snake with the machete and the camera captures that glower on his face, it feels like more than just a reaction shot. Shit, Crazy Ralph is a red-herring too.

The biggest failure is not introducing Mrs. Voorhees earlier. Had they not fucked that up, the structure of the film wouldn't be attacked as often as it is. Also, I'd like to add that it always made zero sense that Alice would dream about Jason looking exactly as he did as a child when she'd only just been made aware of him by his mother who offered no details about the boy.
True enough. "Poorly set-up" being the key phrase. When I first saw the film it never occurred to me that any of the characters we had might be the killer.

Agreed on Mrs. Voorhees. It needed the classic Scooby-Doo structure.

FRIDAY THE 13TH is really a perfect example of a film being successful despite itself.
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post #12 of 47
4/23/10 at 3:22pm
Aside from the Tom Savini gore, the Jason scare at the end (also Savini's contribution) and the campground setting, there is nothing that elevates this movie to what I consider to be "classic" status. A classic film in any genre has to be a film that impacted film in some artistic way. The impact of FRIDAY THE 13TH was only commerce. It was aping a film that had real artistic influence (HALLOWEEN) while not contributing anything significant to the genre itself. Plus, it's just really not that great. Better than it had a right to be, but not great.
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post #13 of 47
4/23/10 at 3:30pm
I'm sure in 2034, there will be a thread in some super reality version of CHUD about the 30th Anniversary of Saw and what a "classic" it is (after the three reboots of course).
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post #14 of 47
4/23/10 at 4:33pm
No. It's fun, and it certainly had an impact (you can't say a film with 11 sequels had no impact) but classic is overvaluing it. Especially since the main character the series is mostly known for didn't arrive until the 2nd film and didn't get the look most people assoiciate with the series until the 3rd.
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post #15 of 47
4/23/10 at 4:39pm
I started to say Friday the 13th is Homicidal to Halloween's Psycho, but that's perhaps too generous.
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post #16 of 47
4/23/10 at 4:51pm
Jason's status as a pop culture icon is solidified, but that's about it. The reboot was much better than any of the originals IMO.
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post #17 of 47
4/23/10 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyWorm View Post
I mean, it doesn't even get its own structure right. We SHOULD have heard the Jason story at the beginning of the movie. Or ANY story. You know, so we could wonder who is doing all the killing. There should've at least been a red-herring. Or two.
Interesting. I never knew a red herring was a prerequisite for proper storytelling. I actually find it refreshing when I'm not thrown obvious misdirection in a story. The story is still suspenseful along the way, and when the killer's identity is revealed, it comes full circle and doesn't feel a cheat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
Also, I'd like to add that it always made zero sense that Alice would dream about Jason looking exactly as he did as a child when she'd only just been made aware of him by his mother who offered no details about the boy.
Who said he looked exactly the same in both visions (one being a far away shot at night, the other being close-up during the day), or that both visions were not Alice's own even...or that it was even a dream Alice had to begin with?
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post #18 of 47
4/23/10 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad View Post
Jason's status as a pop culture icon is solidified, but that's about it. The reboot was much better than any of the originals IMO.
Watch Part 2, The Final Chapter, and Jason Lives, then spend a day in solitude contemplating how incorrect you are.
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post #19 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:04pm
I love the original eight films more than the children I'll never have.
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post #20 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post
Watch Part 2, The Final Chapter, and Jason Lives, then spend a day in solitude contemplating how incorrect you are.
That won't be necessary. I owned 1-4 for years but I had to let them go, just as I let go of the false memories that they were good films. Beyond Savini's stellar FX work, there's nothing that warrants clinging to/defending them for, save for pure nostalgia.

ETA: A preemptive "Yes I know" that Savini only worked on 1 & 4.
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post #21 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:32pm
JASON LIVES is a legitimately good film. I will battle whoever says otherwise.
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post #22 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
Interesting. I never knew a red herring was a prerequisite for proper storytelling. I actually find it refreshing when I'm not thrown obvious misdirection in a story. The story is still suspenseful along the way, and when the killer's identity is revealed, it comes full circle and doesn't feel a cheat.
Wait, are you saying that Mrs. Voorhees popping up out of nowhere isn't a cheat?
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post #23 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyWorm View Post
JASON LIVES is a legitimately good film. I will battle whoever says otherwise.
I won't argue against that. But when you consider that FTT6 is the best of the original franchise, and it's almost an outright parody, well... there you go.
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post #24 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:45pm
JASON LIVES, while being a very fun film, cannot be considered the best of the series because it doesn't have boobies. THE FINAL CHAPTER meets all of the requirements of a FRIDAY THE 13TH film (aside from the campground setting, which let's face it, is the least important element) ergo it is the best.
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post #25 of 47
4/23/10 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
JASON LIVES, while being a very fun film, cannot be considered the best of the series because it doesn't have boobies. THE FINAL CHAPTER meets all of the requirements of a FRIDAY THE 13TH film (aside from the campground setting, which let's face it, is the least important element) ergo it is the best.
The FX in Final Chapter are the best, and dancing Crispin is a huge bonus, but that's still not enough to eclipse JL.
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post #26 of 47
4/23/10 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wydren View Post
Mrs. Voorhees popping up out of nowhere isn't a cheat?
I'd say it was more of an intended play on audience mis-assumption to think that the boogeyman would indeed be a man to begin with. The flashback intro doesn't reveal who killed the counselors, but it only makes sense that it would be Palmer, seeing as Jason had yet to be established as a zombiefied serial killer. This is the lone aspect of the story that could be seen as even remotely clever.
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post #27 of 47
4/23/10 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
JASON LIVES, while being a very fun film, cannot be considered the best of the series because it doesn't have boobies. THE FINAL CHAPTER meets all of the requirements of a FRIDAY THE 13TH film (aside from the campground setting, which let's face it, is the least important element) ergo it is the best.
Gospel. Plus, wasn't Jason Lives one of the most MPAA-hacked of the series, which puts it at a huge disadvantage?
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post #28 of 47
4/23/10 at 10:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad View Post
I won't argue against that. But when you consider that FTT6 is the best of the original franchise, and it's almost an outright parody, well... there you go.
Hard to argue with logic.

As for the rest, I stand my ground. If I was grabbing some beer and watching a Jason movie with a group of friends, yeah I'd go with 4 or 5 cause they're the most awesomely ridiculous. But I still say JASON LIVES is the best movie in the series.
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post #29 of 47
4/24/10 at 3:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad View Post
That won't be necessary. I owned 1-4 for years but I had to let them go, just as I let go of the false memories that they were good films. Beyond Savini's stellar FX work, there's nothing that warrants clinging to/defending them for, save for pure nostalgia.
I have absolutely no nostalgic feeling toward the Friday films. Most of them are wretched. But 2, 4, and 6 outclass the remake in every way.
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post #30 of 47
4/24/10 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad View Post
I won't argue against that. But when you consider that FTT6 is the best of the original franchise, and it's almost an outright parody, well... there you go.
I'd agree that Part 6 and 4 are the only ones that approach being a good movie, but I can't really deny this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad View Post
I'd say it was more of an intended play on audience mis-assumption to think that the boogeyman would indeed be a man to begin with. The flashback intro doesn't reveal who killed the counselors, but it only makes sense that it would be Palmer, seeing as Jason had yet to be established as a zombiefied serial killer. This is the lone aspect of the story that could be seen as even remotely clever.
Yeah, it was a little bit clever, but you've got to admit, the killer being someone who wasn't in the movie at all up to that point is a huge cheat.
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post #31 of 47
4/24/10 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
JASON LIVES, while being a very fun film, cannot be considered the best of the series because it doesn't have boobies. THE FINAL CHAPTER meets all of the requirements of a FRIDAY THE 13TH film (aside from the campground setting, which let's face it, is the least important element) ergo it is the best.
This is dumb. And Lives isn't an out and out parody, it still functions as a horror film. It's the only one that puts the kid campers in danger!

And the most MPAA hacked entry in the series was New Blood. Most of the kills in that are incoherent due to the terrible editing.

Final Chapter is definitely a great Friday movie, and has the best Jason of all of them.
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post #32 of 47
4/24/10 at 11:52am
Richard Brooker from part 3 is still my favorite. Also my favorite film in the series.
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post #33 of 47
4/24/10 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dross View Post
Richard Brooker from part 3 is still my favorite. Also my favorite film in the series.
I think if you put Part 3's Jason in any of the pre-zombie Jason movies you get a better movie. Grinning retard all the way.

I like the very narrow window the F13 movies occupy between professional filmmaking and utter trash. They feel like handmade films, but they're reasonably well shot and scored. But the nature of the series was they were cranking them out end to end, and no one gave a fuck about the scripts. By 6 they were getting "clever", but I was never a fan of undead Jason. That's largely the reason I enjoyed the remake. They made him a backwoods killer again, but the script was having fun.
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post #34 of 47
4/24/10 at 2:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
Interesting. I never knew a red herring was a prerequisite for proper storytelling. I actually find it refreshing when I'm not thrown obvious misdirection in a story. The story is still suspenseful along the way, and when the killer's identity is revealed, it comes full circle and doesn't feel a cheat.
On the face of it it doesn't feel like a cheat because the mystery is secondary to the spectacle, but seeing as how mystery is an element, it's a cheat. The most we get in the way of a clue is when the truck driver is recounting the history of Camp Crystal Lake to Annie: "Boy drowning in '57."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
Who said he looked exactly the same in both visions (one being a far away shot at night, the other being close-up during the day), or that both visions were not Alice's own even...or that it was even a dream Alice had to begin with?
The first time we see Jason it's through the eyes of his mother as she imagines him drowning, he's clearly deformed. The second time we see him is in Alice's dream (which is clearly meant to be a dream and is the stated intention of the filmmakers) where he is the partially decomposed version of the same Jason we saw in Mrs. Voorhees vision. Savini's mongoloid makeup is evident in both scenes.

I just want to clarify, when I started this thread I hadn't (and still haven't) formed an opinion of Friday the 13th's status, but the concept popped into my head so I put it out there just to see what the reaction would be.


Edit: For the record, I actually like part 3 less and less and I know why. Sure Jason gets his hockey mask and the kills are great, but since it takes place the day after part 2 and none of these kids know who Jason is, there's no mythology, there's no meat to the thing, just potatoes. The most you get is the ersatz Crazy Ralph with the eyeball who gives a vague warning to the new arrivals and then you have the final girl's rememberance of a, to her, nameless deformed hillbilly who raped her way back when. Jason's name never comes up, no one knows who he is (despite this the final girl inexplicably has a nightmare about being attacked by Jason's maggot-ridden mother, a woman she's never seen and presumably knows nothing about). I don't know, I just like Friday the 13th films better when that campfire tale element is represented, it's a nice cushion.
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post #35 of 47
4/25/10 at 2:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
On the face of it it doesn't feel like a cheat because the mystery is secondary to the spectacle, but seeing as how mystery is an element, it's a cheat. The most we get in the way of a clue is when the truck driver is recounting the history of Camp Crystal Lake to Annie: "Boy drowning in '57."
No, it doesn't feel like a cheat to me. Even the opening scene sets up the timeline to be considered throughout, along with all the townspeople recounting the history and Crazy Ralph (a weak red herring, if you HAVE to have one) doing his thing. I respect that you felt cheated though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
The second time we see him is in Alice's dream (which is clearly meant to be a dream and is the stated intention of the filmmakers)...
I've heard interviews where certain parties said they would use the dream excuse as a way out, but I never heard to where it was definitively used in the story.

The final film is all we can judge, and it is left on an ambiguous note, as to whether Alice was actually attacked or suffered a nightmare. We are even told that some of the lawmen pulled her out of the lake. Well, how did she get there? Did she sleeptip the canoe over?

See, if we're going to nitpick, then we should allow the film the benefit of the doubt too in the opposite direction. For my money, the ending is open-ended enough to satisfactorily address your complaint.
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post #36 of 47
4/25/10 at 2:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Edit: For the record, I actually like part 3 less and less and I know why. Sure Jason gets his hockey mask and the kills are great, but since it takes place the day after part 2 and none of these kids know who Jason is, there's no mythology
That kind of awareness is nearly always a detriment in the genre, though. When the protags exist in a world without knowledge of an infamous boogeyman, it tends to be more effective.
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post #37 of 47
4/25/10 at 2:52am
What's even better is how Jason goes from being 5'10"/ 190 lbs to 7'/ 250 lbs overnight.
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post #38 of 47
5/6/10 at 3:21am
Friday the 13th movies are just out and out pure trashy fun. That being said, I think the movies lost a little something once they hit the 20-year mark and started being made by people who grew up watching them. There was never much subtlety in the introduction of weed, breasts, or sex in the flicks but goddamn if the New Line films didn't just beat you over the goddamn head with how aware of it they were. Maybe I'm just crying about shit smells in an outhouse here but I don't know.
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post #39 of 47
5/6/10 at 3:19pm
I know what you mean. They'd put in breasts for the sole purpose of having breasts. Just because the previous films had them. I mean technically the original films did the same thing...breasts for the sake of breasts...so I can't really put newer movies down for that. Jason X got naked and rolled around in all the series' staples, which is why as bad as it is, it's still so fun.

New Blood...wow. When I saw it recently, I thought I must have gotten the TBS cut or something. The kills could've been rather good if they weren't hacked to pieces.

Jason Lives is definitely the best movie. I think it had the best budget too, right?
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post #40 of 47
5/6/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
I know what you mean. They'd put in breasts for the sole purpose of having breasts. Just because the previous films had them. I mean technically the original films did the same thing...breasts for the sake of breasts...so I can't really put newer movies down for that. Jason X got naked and rolled around in all the series' staples, which is why as bad as it is, it's still so fun.
I didn't much care for Jason X. I watch it from time to time but it's easily my least favorite of the series. Or maybe it's Freddy vs. Jason.

Don't know if this has been brought up before but has anyone else noticed that both New Beginning and New Blood could be pulled right out of the series and the viewer wouldn't miss a thing? I know continuity is an afterthought with these films but you'd have thought they'd establish something there.
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post #41 of 47
5/6/10 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
That's true. I don't think I ever thought of that, though the lack of anything having changed between 5 and 6 was more a conscious decision to keep the brand alive than the result of the bland storytelling of one entry to the next. It's okay, but New Blood really is the entry that brings nothing to the table. Jason is brought back from the dead and he looks...deader. Little cockeyed telekinetic girl isn't a gimmick that one can enjoy on the same level as Jason going to Manhattan (for five seconds) and whatnot.
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post #42 of 47
5/7/10 at 6:00am
But Terry Kiser being a dick to her is pretty great.
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post #43 of 47
5/8/10 at 3:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
That's true. I don't think I ever thought of that, though the lack of anything having changed between 5 and 6 was more a conscious decision to keep the brand alive than the result of the bland storytelling of one entry to the next. It's okay, but New Blood really is the entry that brings nothing to the table. Jason is brought back from the dead and he looks...deader. Little cockeyed telekinetic girl isn't a gimmick that one can enjoy on the same level as Jason going to Manhattan (for five seconds) and whatnot.
Well, not only does New Blood establish no new ground, it drops Jason right back where he started at the end.

Friday the 13th is to the slasher film series as Family Matters is to the sitcom. Others came before and arguably did much better but it had the right gimmick at the right time. Whether it's Jason and his hockey mask or Urkel and his goofy catchprashes, both would be thrown into any and all silly gimmicks (occasionally many times over) just to get more dollars. Nearly every F13 movie is built on a gimmick. We have Jason in 3-D. Jason fighting a telekenetic teen. Jason going to New York. Jason dying for good... twice. A fake Jason. Jason going to space. Jason fighting Freddy. And so on and so forth.

I think Jason Lives worked the best because it basically tried to bring a little sense to things. Whether he was dead or not before, he's dead here and risen from the grave. Ironically enough, it is the first film in the series to have a hockey-masked Jason stalking counselors at an open camp (but oddly enough, it isn't called Crystal Lake in this one.) Not a fan of the "let's randomly insert famous horror director's names" gimmick but I could deal with it here. I did like the classic horror movie feel in which the film was shot.
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post #44 of 47
5/8/10 at 3:51am
I choose to see Jason's mythology as a branching, choose your own adventure style continuity.
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post #45 of 47
5/8/10 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
I choose to see Jason's mythology as a branching, choose your own adventure style continuity.
Not a bad way to go about it. I've always subscribed to the idea that he drowned in the lake way back and then returned after his mom's head got hacked off.

There's some suggestion that he didn't actually drown and he's just some mongoloid hermit wandering through the woods but him tracking down Alice says to me there are greater forces at work. He takes a ridicilous amount of damage and is definitetly killed at least once before finally being officially done in in The Final Chapter so the whole idea that he's just a regular guy until Jason Lives never quite washed with me.

You kind of need your own ideas because the series has a unbelievable disregard for continuity from film to film. All still manages to be watchable so it's all good.
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post #46 of 47
8/13/10 at 2:55am
Happy Friday the 13th!

I'm doing my usual marathon of the first four films.

I just finished watching the original on Blu-ray and am still astonished by how great the presentation is. The level of detail and the vibrant colors throughout most of the film is rather remarkable.

The only downside is that the neck appliances (on "Annie" and "Jack") are really noticeable now in HD, due to the distinct difference in skin tones from the actor's actual skin to the appliance. Small nitpick.

The TrueHD audio is something else! The whole film sounds incredible, and Manfredini's score really punctuates the proceedings.

The ending scene, in the canoe, with all the colors from the trees bouncing off the lake water, and "Sail Away, Tiny Sparrow" soaring on the soundtrack, looks and sounds so good on Blu that I was tempted to raise a lighter in salute.

The only downside is that I must continue my marathon with standard dvds from here on out.

I hope you guys are enjoying your own F13th celebrations.




"Doomed. You're all doomed!"
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post #47 of 47
8/13/10 at 3:48am
Thank you kind sir.

I'm celebrating by watching JASON TAKES MANHATTAN, the first FRIDAY movie I saw as a younger gentleman. It's just as inept as I remembered, and I still have a huge crush on the first girl that gets killed. Oh well, "You can't get the adrenaline pumpin' without the terror, good people".
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