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Armed crazy looking white man just "wanted to see the President - Page 3

post #101 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
To them it's representative of southern pride.
Which is what, exactly? You never really hear of "Northern Pride", or "Western Pride".
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post #102 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
Well I've met plenty that weren't racists. They're absolutely aware of the negative things associated with the flag and they don't like that it's being automatically associated with racism. It doesn't even necessarily mean they wish they won the war and wish we'd secede from the union again. To them it's representative of southern pride.

It's like if you ever go to a Civil War reenactment and talk with the people on the Confederates side. They like being the Confederates even though they lost. They wave the flag with pride. But are they racists or want to overthrow the government? No...they're really just big geeks. Many display the flag in their private life as well.
You know, Hitler did wonders for Germany's infrastructure. but people don't celebrate that and show pride in such Germanic efficiency because Hitler ALSO SLAUGHTERED SIX MILLION JEWS. Fuck these assholes who think that "the South is great" somehow outweighs the racism of their precious flag. I can't believe this is even up for debate. If you want to show pride in the South - although God knows why given that it's major defining characteristic is that it once went to war with the North in order to keep its uppity negroes in their place - then find a better symbol.
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post #103 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:25pm
Those who say the flag is just for being a rebel or "southern pride" are at best ignorant, not innocent. They're latching on to a symbol of whose connotations they're completely unaware, and it takes a LOT to be unaware what the Confederate flag represents to so many people.
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post #104 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
Well I've met plenty that weren't racists. They're absolutely aware of the negative things associated with the flag and they don't like that it's being automatically associated with racism. It doesn't even necessarily mean they wish they won the war and wish we'd secede from the union again. To them it's representative of southern pride.

It's like if you ever go to a Civil War reenactment and talk with the people on the Confederates side. They like being the Confederates even though they lost. They wave the flag with pride. But are they racists or want to overthrow the government? No...they're really just big geeks. Many display the flag in their private life as well.

Are there people that USE the flag as their symbol for racism? Yes. Usually, it's the younger crowd. Though I've had more encounters with racism from people who don't have the flag.
I'm a Buddhist and proud of it but I'm not about to hang a Seal of His Heart on my walls because it looks like a damn swastika. I don't like that it's associated with racism but I don't get a say in that, do I?
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post #105 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
You know, Hitler did wonders for Germany's infrastructure. but people don't celebrate that and show pride in such Germanic efficiency because Hitler ALSO SLAUGHTERED SIX MILLION JEWS. Fuck these assholes who think that "the South is great" somehow outweighs the racism of their precious flag. I can't believe this is even up for debate. If you want to show pride in the South - although God knows why given that it's major defining characteristic is that it once went to war with the North in order to keep its uppity negroes in their place - then find a better symbol.
Racism and eugenics aside...
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post #106 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:29pm
Hey, the trains ran on time. Right to Auschwitz, but still...
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post #107 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:30pm
Just to be clear: I'm not personally defending the confederate flag. I think it's fucking stupid, and that any "pride" taken that far is the sign of a true dipshit.

All I'm saying is, if you're ever down here and you see one, don't just automatically paint the person as some Klan-robe wearing racist. They might, MIGHT not be. But the odds are in your favor, I guess.

And the Nazi analogy is a bit hyperbolic, though I see your point (and saw it before you brought that up).
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post #108 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
You're right, but like it or not, it's just not how a lot of people down here see it. I'll say that a majority of proud confederate flag wavers ARE probably racist.

But there is certainly a huge number of them that honestly don't look past it as "I live in the south, I LOVE the south, and that used to be the flag of the south. Therefore, I wear it/fly it/put bumper stickers on my car."

Which DOES make them incredibly short-sighted and stupid and ignorant. But not entirely racist. But yeah, MOST of them are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Those who say the flag is just for being a rebel or "southern pride" are at best ignorant, not innocent. They're latching on to a symbol of whose connotations they're completely unaware, and it takes a LOT to be unaware what the Confederate flag represents to so many people.
I qualified that, though I know this gets people riled up and all.

Dickson, I know you're in Central Florida, but I've been there enough to know that you can appreciate just how fucking stupid a lot of southerners can be, and it's not that crazy that many of them really are THAT unaware.

It's not that they've forgotten about slavery, just that they're truly too dumb to realize how that is inextricably tied to that flag. It CAN'T just be about "southern pride" or loving the good things about this region. But try telling them that...
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post #109 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:36pm
Not all racism is of the robe-wearing cross-burning variety. It's not always overt.
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post #110 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:40pm
Hell, some down south consider the civil war to be an "Act of Northern Aggression"
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post #111 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:41pm
And yeah, I went to junior high (middle school to you youngins) at a school that was right between the suburbs and the more rural areas, and we had our share of the Bocephus-lovin' dip chewers who thought wearing a Confederate flag t-shirt made them some kind of bad ass good ol' boy. Which, seeing as how the Confederacy lost, never made sense to me. "Don't mess with me; I sided with the losers!"

All the romanticism that's sprung up around the South as some kind of great lost cause routinely ignores just what that cause was. It gets hidden behind states rights and self-determination, but it was basically "Our economy is screwed if we have to give up our slaves."
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post #112 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Not all racism is of the robe-wearing cross-burning variety. It's not always overt.
Come on, man. I know that.

I'm talking about people that truly have no qualms what so ever with black people, and also don't think of them as un-equal. They do exist.

Also keep in mind that we have ALL, every single human, displayed racist tendencies at some point. So if you want to nitpick you can wind up making anyone a "racist."

But... this is getting stupid and I sound like I'm defending the confederate flag and ALL who wave it proudly, which I'm certainly not. I'd have no problems extinguishing it for good.
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post #113 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:54pm
joeypants is a RACIST REBEL-LOVER!!!!!!
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post #114 of 124
4/28/10 at 12:54pm
I know where you're coming from, but it just bugs me when people say, "Well, it's not like they're with the Klan." At least with the Klan, you know where they stand. The people who'll watch a black customer with suspicion when they come into a store but say, "Oh, some of my best friends are black!" when called on it, that's the problem.
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post #115 of 124
4/28/10 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
All I'm saying is, if you're ever down here and you see one, don't just automatically paint the person as some Klan-robe wearing racist.
They don't have to be Klan-robe wearing. I'm just agreeing that you shouldn't automatically paint them as a racist, even if you think their "southern pride" is retarded.

The whole Civil War was an Act of Northern Aggression thing....I swear I heard it was being taught at one of the schools in this state. It was just a rumor though. It's probably fucking true in other states though. I do remember hearing from people that lived in Hickory, NC that it was the most racist part of the state. It was such a small town with no black people so they could just hate all they want.

But when the President of the Union refuses to make a peace treaty with you because since he doesn't recognize you as a nation, you have no voice whatsoever....I think that's sort of like a smack in the face.

It was good logic though.
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post #116 of 124
4/28/10 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I know where you're coming from, but it just bugs me when people say, "Well, it's not like they're with the Klan." At least with the Klan, you know where they stand. The people who'll watch a black customer with suspicion when they come into a store but say, "Oh, some of my best friends are black!" when called on it, that's the problem.
Hey, I look at every black dude dressed like a gangsta with suspicion when I drive or walk somewhere in a neighborhood. I'm not stereotyping....it just so happens the majority of trouble I've gotten in the past has been from black dudes dressed like gangstas. Then again I'd look at white dudes dressed the same way with suspicion so I dunno if it has anything to do with color.

If you're looking at black people with suspicion, but have no reason to other than they're black...then I suppose that would be a problem. But if actual experience has taught you to be wary of certain black people who look and dress like thugs...then...I dunno. Tough call.
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post #117 of 124
4/28/10 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
The people who'll watch a black customer with suspicion when they come into a store but say, "Oh, some of my best friends are black!" when called on it, that's the problem.
See, I'm not even talking about those people. That's what I tried to get across initially. I know THAT type as well, and yeah, they're racists.

I'm talking genuine, honest-to-god non-racists who look at black people just like everyone else. Genuinely. Not some case where they start telling "Obama's a monkey" jokes behind closed doors. In fact, many of these people that I know will get downright angry if you hurl a racial epithet around.

Sounds odd, I know. But there's plenty of them out there.
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post #118 of 124
4/28/10 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
They don't have to be Klan-robe wearing. I'm just agreeing that you shouldn't automatically paint them as a racist, even if you think their "southern pride" is retarded.
Ya gotta admit it's hard not to think of them that way though. If someone in Cork placed a Red Hand of Ulster over their pub because it represented Irish pride, you'd have to be pretty dumb to claim innocence when the Catholics got pissed.

(Sorry to our Irish Chewers, I just couldn't think of an example of silly pride that didn't involve the Nazis)
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post #119 of 124
4/28/10 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radb707 View Post
Hey, I look at every black dude dressed like a gangsta with suspicion when I drive or walk somewhere in a neighborhood. I'm not stereotyping....it just so happens the majority of trouble I've gotten in the past has been from black dudes dressed like gangstas. Then again I'd look at white dudes dressed the same way with suspicion so I dunno if it has anything to do with color.

If you're looking at black people with suspicion, but have no reason to other than they're black...then I suppose that would be a problem. But if actual experience has taught you to be wary of certain black people who look and dress like thugs...then...I dunno. Tough call.
...Huh.
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post #120 of 124
4/28/10 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Way to completely misrepresent that case.
Completely Misinterpret? This point of view was in the brief from Ginsberg on the Second Amendment case.
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post #121 of 124
4/28/10 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_k42 View Post
Completely Misinterpret? This point of view was in the brief from Ginsberg on the Second Amendment case.
I said misrepresent:

"A State's failure to protect an individual against private violence generally does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause, because the Clause imposes no duty on the State to provide members of the general public with adequate protective services. The Clause is phrased as a limitation on the State's power to act, not as a guarantee of certain minimal levels of safety and security . . ."

Yes, you are correct that the public has no legal right to protection but that does not limit the police's ability to act. It's like expecting to have the right to have marshmallows on the shelf at all times and the court says that not all stores have to have marshmallows on the shelves. You don't run around and start stockpiling marshmallows. You're more than likely to find them even if it's not codified in your inalienable rights.
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post #122 of 124
4/28/10 at 4:50pm
Ahhh. Great point.
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post #123 of 124
4/29/10 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Ya gotta admit it's hard not to think of them that way though. If someone in Cork placed a Red Hand of Ulster over their pub because it represented Irish pride, you'd have to be pretty dumb to claim innocence when the Catholics got pissed.

(Sorry to our Irish Chewers, I just couldn't think of an example of silly pride that didn't involve the Nazis)
I agree. I used to always think they were all retarded racists until I actually talked to some of them. If I went to a gun show, there'd be at least one place with the flag up and I'd just look around to make sure there's no black people for them to shoot lol. I was totally stereotyping. Which is what most people do when a black guy dressed like a thug walks into a store.

I've never known any of them to claim innocence, but they explain how it shouldn't mean what people think it means if someone mentions it. The most racist people I've ever met didn't even have the flag.
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post #124 of 124
4/29/10 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Ya gotta admit it's hard not to think of them that way though. If someone in Cork placed a Red Hand of Ulster over their pub because it represented Irish pride, you'd have to be pretty dumb to claim innocence when the Catholics got pissed.
The Red Hand is actually adopted by some Catholic Irish as the Red Hand of O'Neill. Both Loyalist and Separatist extremists can claim that one as their own! It's very versatile.
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