Armed crazy looking white man just "wanted to see the President - Page 2

Again, big assumption. Try moving to a neighborhood in New Orleans where people get robbed AT GUNPOINT quite regularly, both on the street and/or have their homes broken into, and you'll see the attraction.


Also,

I'm sorry, but that's insane. These Tea Party nutjobs (and many others) extrapolate that to their own twisted means, but that IS still an important part of the constitution.

Plus, guns are just a reality in this country. Should the criminal element REALLY be the only ones carrying them around? Discuss.

Also, there's fucking TEA PARTIERS out there!

You really think I'd like to get caught with my pants down when these fucking loonies start popping off? Escalation and all that.


(I'm mostly kidding, but kind of not.)


ETA: As far as keeping something on my person, I'd probably prefer something along these lines:



Unless dude's got a handgun, you've pretty much got the quick upper hand here.

There is much evidence showing that violence goes hand and hand with poverty. If our country focused less on the right to bear arms and more on providing resources to the people that need them, there would be a lot less "need" for guns in "questionable" neighborhoods.

Not too long ago, slavery was "just a reality" in this country. Really stupid argument. Just because that's how things are doesn't mean that's how things should be.

Maybe he has OCD? He probably has to release the safety five times while counting out loud before firing each shot.

I love how there's an ad for "firearms training" popping up for this thread.

I couldn't agree with you more there.

Look, all I meant was that they're "there," whether you like it or not. Make some "law" or repeal the constitution or whatever, and you'll STILL have tons and tons of guns circulating. Only now, they're ONLY circulated by criminals. Doubly so since owning a gun at all would then make you a criminal.

And then the "real" criminal element would shift tactics, knowing that no one else save the police could have a gun on them.

We all have an ideal situation that we'd like to be in place. I'd fucking LOVE it if guns were wiped from the earth completely. But... ain't happening. Plus, someone would just find a big stick to whack people with anyway.

The real thing is to tackle the issue at it's root, as you've suggested above.

Not really. Listen to the NRA spokespeople some time. They all talk about their right to defend themselves from the criminal element. Ask yourself what that code word really means to the middle aged white man holding the gun.

I get the attraction. I don't get the going through with it. It's like that stupid bullshit that the neo-cons pulled in the eighties about mutually assured destruction.

And you haven't answered why you think the fertilizer bomb was hyperbolic when compared to a gun.



No, it isn't. There's a bunch of countries out there who manage quite well without it.

Absurd. You've been reading the NRA webpage.

I'm perfectly comfortable leaving the handguns in the hands of the capable person who handle them in a professional capacity everyday and not Joe Six Pack.

Well, not ALL of them. Possibly not even a majority, I don't know. I know it's difficult for you to accept, but I know of TONS of gun owners who aren't filthy racists (even behind closed doors).

Also:
-If I have to explain the difference between a fucking fertilizer bomb and a handgun to you...

-You've been reading the NRA page.

Or, I just use my logical faculties to see past this fluffy, squeaky clean version of the US you seem to have. And I fucking hate this because you're making me sound like an NRA lunatic. I just don't happen to believe in strict gun control.

I believe in working on a society that isn't driven to do the shit some of the degenerates in our country do on a regular basis.

It's very difficult for me to accept when the guys with the guns are the ones insisting on anti-immigration laws, stronger sentences for violent offenders and drug dealers AND are mostly white.

Yeah, you do. They are the same thing, a killing tool with no other purpose.

I believe the exact opposite of the US. But my problem is that people continue to believe that escalation is the same thing as parity. They think that owning a gun will keep them safer from this unknown criminal element. They believe that everyone has a gun so they need a bigger, better gun. They live in a world where every thing they don't know or don't understand scares the hell out of them.

I'm not saying there aren't places where protection might feel good. I'm saying it's absurd to think that a gun will decrease your chance of being involved in something nasty. I'm also saying that the false sens of security you get from a gun will likely get you further in to shit than you think. They're like 4x4s. By the time you actually need them, you'll be seriously fucked.

I'm also asking how many people who own guns live in those areas or frequent those areas on a regular basis. Does the average NRA member and gun owner live in an area where they are at risk?

How is looser gun control going to help move to a less chaotic country?

I didn't say that shit.

I didn't mean guns and cars were the same thing, I meant a situation with bad apples ruining it for everyone when they shouldn't. There's dozens of real life situations that are better examples.

Why does race have to play a card in this? I feel like it's a bit of reach.

Do you honestly believe when an NRA member is saying 'criminal element' he doesn't have a specific image in his mind of who he thinks is going to rob him? Do you imagine that guy is white?

Look, I admit it's hyperbole to say that every gun owner is a closet racist but I suspect the crossover in that Venn diagram is much larger than the NRA would care to admit.

Of course it's an issue. If the Tea Partiers were overwhelmingly black, this would be a whole different thing. I don't see throngs of Asians publicly arming themselves against 'criminal elements.' Which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of heavily armed Asians ready to do battle with rampaging mobs. But it's distinctly and pointedly white people who are out in public waving their guns around, blabbering on about 'protecting themselves' from zombies or some shit. It's not like these gringos are poppin off shots in the projects over busted drug deals or some shit. They're not really using their guns (except to shoot the living hell out of cans, possums and their own digits). It's a power trip for pitiful white folks who think they've been ripped off because they grew up constantly hearing about how the white man had a leg up in country, and now that they're middle aged and failed, they're expressing their anger that their lives fucking suck. Obviously, it's somebody's fault, and they want that somebody, whoever that may be (black, illegal, muslim, liberal, homosexual, whoever) to know that if we ever meet, by God, we have guns! We still have our second amendment rights! We're still white, and that still counts for something!

Hey, my family's asian. I know for a fact they're not scared of white people, they're scared of black people. I'm sure asians would have guns too if they thought about it, because they sure as shit have pepper spray and tasers.

I think you're going too far with the whole white superiority thing and why they want guns so much. Like I said before, I think that sort of thing is just an over exaggeration...and I live in the south.

Do they also have powerful kung-fu? I kid! And I hope so.

I'm aware that 'gun culture' is it's own distinct thing. I'm not saying that it is, in and of itself, a racist manifestation. But the whole Tea Party, let's march on the National Mall and defend our gun rights (because everyone's gun rights have been trampled on lately, sure) - that shit is racist. It's the racist, ignorant manifestation of the popular (more benign) gun culture.

Because it needs to be reiterated:

Diva that's fucking brilliant, and would be worth relinking in the official Tea Party thread.

I wasn't aware the Tea Party was marching for gun rights, Zhakov. I've seen countless misspelled signs and they're all mostly about government control, health care, taxes, and Obama being a commie. Don't tell me the gun rights posters are the ones that are actually spelled correctly. It would be too amazing.

I was gonna put a bunch of stuff about how the Tea Party isn't necessarily racist...but that would severely derail this thread. Heading to the Tea Party thread for that. I found a pic of a black dude at a Tea Party rally.

Ahahahahaha!

I was in grad school when this happened -- made a real impression on me my first month in the USA.

Sorry, man. Must've messed up my quote editing.

For a start... JESUS, people, brush up on your fucking logical faculties. You HAVE to, as hard as it admittedly is, take the tea party nonsense out of the overarching gun argument. At the very least, you can't just use them as your prime example of "gun owners."

That's like, day fucking one of Logic 101.


Hey! Look at that! That's about the only part of your posting that holds much weight. I understand you're passionate about this, but seriously, your logic is all over the place and terrible.

It's totally irrelevant that "some" gun owners/NRA members are racists. It's also fucking stupid to assume that all "gun owners" are chest beating members of the NRA who sleep with their weapons.

Ditto. I live in the SOUTH, and I see/deal with racism every single fucking day. And I'm TELLING you (especially Ryan), you're way off base in your over simplification of the issue.

Tone down the condescension a little.

When people are marching on Washington brandishing weapons it's hard not to see them as the face of gun owners. The NRA hasn't come forward to chastise them for doing something so stupid and I haven't heard any other special interest group related to firearms come forward either.

The NRA vote has also been part of the core Republican base for years now so to say that they aren't connected or at least don't share some space on a Venn diagram is absurd.


Again, you're kinda being a condescending jerk.

You have yet to answer why you think guns are at all different from anything else whose sole purpose is to kill. All you answer with is "If I have to explain it to you..." and "Your logic is terrible". Or worse yet, you come from the 'logical' place of "Oh, if you lived in the inner city of NO you'd carry a piece, too."

Why do you think guns are an important part of American culture? Why do you think they need to stay an important part of American culture? Why is it important to you to defend people's right to own weapons?

Let me ask again, when the NRA gets up and says that you have the right to protect yourself from the criminal element, what do you suppose the criminal element looks like in their mind?

It's also not irrelevant when they're the ones parading them around and they're the ones calling for less strict gun laws in regards to full auto and cop killer ammunition. Where's the moderate approach to guns?

Besides, I've already said it was hyperbole. I'm sure there's a huge number of hunters/farmers out there who are perfectly happy with their .22 or thirty ought six. It's the people on the news, those who cry that their freedoms are being taken away, or that they have the right to defend their home from the criminal element, or they have the right to pack heat on an expedition downtown, those are the guys who leave those fateful words out of their speech.

Let me ask, who is the average gun owner in your neck of the woods? What are they like? Would you consider the average gun owner to be progressive? Why do they own a gun? Why do they own the gun they own?

Honestly? There is no "average" gun owner as far as my own experience goes. There are tons of them, all with a wide range of varying stances on anything and everything.

I know of the exact racist, gun-crazy caricatures you've invoked, and I know a lot of downright tree-hugging liberals who also own guns. And everything else in between.

Look, I understand where you're coming from. I do. But just because a certain group yells the loudest (i.e these fucking assholes dominating the media at the moment), doesn't mean they're an accurate representation of gun owners.

Honestly, if you knew me, you'd probably find it shocking and hilarious that I'm even taking this stance.



And to put this briefly: a fertilizer bomb is made for MASS destruction. Only. That is it.

A gun can be put to many smaller uses (i.e. hunting, protecting your home, shooting ONE asshole who tries to break into your house, terrorize family, etc. etc. and other somewhat unlikely scenarios). Guns ARE made to kill, yes. But the scale is terribly different.

But... you know that, and just wanted to make an illogical and hyperbolic point.

The Supreme Court recently came to the conclusion that the police have NO obligation to protect the general public, therefore with the proper training, people NEED the right to protect themselves. Guns are just one of the tools people employ to protect themselves. You don't like it? Don't own one.

Well gee, thanks for clearing that up for us.

Jacob if you do not stop being a smartass I am going to shoot you with my not-gun.

Sort of but I honestly see no difference between a fertilizer bomb and a fully automatic or semi-automatic gun.

As for the rest, beyond hunting I see no need for guns. Particularly concealed ones. So, I still question the logic of someone who packs a weapon "just in case". I literally do not understand it so maybe it's best to just drop it here.

Way to completely misrepresent that case.

I never understood why anti-gun folks don't go after bullets. The constitution doesn't protect bullets.

If someone could explain to me why they think packing heat will protect you from someone else with a gun, that would be great. Because I'm finding it hard to imagine a situation where, if someone sticks a gun in your face and demands your wallet, pulling a gun of your own is going to help matters in any way whatsoever.

It seems like the people who need guns for "protection" are the ones who end up wreaking havoc. That attitude is precisely the problem.

That's why I'd carry.

I seem to be the only Canadian ambivalent about the matter; I will elucidate.

I used to oppose carrying, for reasons like the creepy wizard who wanted to see Obama and the poor guy who was shot asking directions to a party, which was the incident that galvanized my opinion. I still think the gun-rights nuts are nuts, I still think the NRA is fine as a big gun club but should not be any sort of political force because by and large they're way too right-wing, and I still think firearms exacerbate crime.

But the fact is, were I to live somewhere where one could carry, I would. There'd be a lot of guns there, ripe for the picking by a larger number of criminals than I'm used to having around; I know they're there by the crime statistics they leave behind. If it turned out to be no more dangerous than I'm used to I'd put the gun away.

Yeah well if you're home is broken into by a dude with a knife and you walk out there with a gun...I think he's going to listen to you. In no way does it mean you're going to use the weapon. It simply means you have leverage. Even if he did have a gun, if you have a gun pointed to his head, I think he'll be more inclined to put his gun down. I mean sure, you could carry a taser instead, but if there's more than one, you're screwed.

I'm not saying I agree with carrying a gun everywhere you go, but I do see the point of owning one. If a dude already has a gun pulled on you, there's not much you can do, except do as he says or call his bluff and run. You usually don't have time to pull out a gun. But if he hasn't pulled first, or he has a knife and you're physically outmatched, or you're surrounded by a whole group who are threatening to beat you up...a gun might give you a chance. It's intimidating. It's a psychological advantage.

Also, living in the south, anybody I've met that's a member of the NRA has never had a rifle to protect them from races. When they say criminals...they mean criminals. If a black/white/purple dude isn't coming in their house to steal something or threatening them, they're not going to shoot them. The majority of them use their guns for hunting or recreational shooting. One of the main reasons they vote republican and are with the NRA is because they're afraid a liberal is going to take their guns away. So I don't think it's a race thing, even if some of them are racists.

That's like saying ANY middle aged white person with a rifle and an accent is a racist...or ANY white people with the confederate flag on their truck or home are racists.

You whacky yanks and ya guns.

I think we can agree any celebration of the confederacy is not only per se racist, but treasonous as well.

They lost. We won. Get over it.

Imagine being a black guy and walking past a house that's flying the flag of the organisation who wanted to keep your race in perpetual servitude. Yeah, totally not racist. Fucking Hell.

Also, I'm with Ryan S and Prankster, and Diva and Jake. We here in the UK put the gun genie back in the bottle over a decade ago, and we shockingly haven't been overrun with marauding gangs of illegal-weaponing-brandishing criminals. We just don't get very many people dying of gunshot wounds. It's not hard, guys - there is no reason for guns to be such a prevalent part of any society. Certainly not for protection from OTHER people carrying guns. How in fuck does pulling a weapon in that situation make things better?

But what about the chavs running rampant committing KNIFE CRIME? The streets of the UK run red with innocent blood and this could have been avoided if the lawful people were armed. Have fun in your BROKEN country.

I worry not about knives. I have a board with a nail in it.

You're right, but like it or not, it's just not how a lot of people down here see it. I'll say that a majority of proud confederate flag wavers ARE probably racist.

But there is certainly a huge number of them that honestly don't look past it as "I live in the south, I LOVE the south, and that used to be the flag of the south. Therefore, I wear it/fly it/put bumper stickers on my car."

Which DOES make them incredibly short-sighted and stupid and ignorant. But not entirely racist. But yeah, MOST of them are.

That'll stop those hooligans from knocking over dustbins in Shaftsbury.

You could use this rational eto excuse displaying the Swastika. The Confederate flag is the symbol of an extremely unpleasant part of American history - I find it hard to believe that those who display it are unaware of its connotations.

No, the nail-board is kept in reserve until they become ruffians.

And anyone who displays an Ulster flag or a Union Jack in the Republic of Ireland is remembering simpler times.

Symbols have power for those who have been crushed under a boot heel. One of the ways in which someone can be kept in place is to prominently display that symbol. I cannot imagine that there's that many people who don't get what the Confederate flag means to black people.

Well, start believing it because it's true. I don't know what else to say other than: move down here and start meeting lots and lots of southerners. Then you'll get it.

And I'm not defending it. It's fucking stupid. Nonetheless, there's a lot of people who innocently display that flag/image in one way or another.

There are plenty who display the image because it represents the image of a "Rebel". Someone who does not conform or some shit like that.

I live in the South, and pretty much every single person I've ever met who likes to display a confederate flag is an inveterate racist. I don't think I've ever met someone who "innocently displays" that flag.

Well I've met plenty that weren't racists. They're absolutely aware of the negative things associated with the flag and they don't like that it's being automatically associated with racism. It doesn't even necessarily mean they wish they won the war and wish we'd secede from the union again. To them it's representative of southern pride.

It's like if you ever go to a Civil War reenactment and talk with the people on the Confederates side. They like being the Confederates even though they lost. They wave the flag with pride. But are they racists or want to overthrow the government? No...they're really just big geeks. Many display the flag in their private life as well.

Are there people that USE the flag as their symbol for racism? Yes. Usually, it's the younger crowd. Though I've had more encounters with racism from people who don't have the flag.


There's a big difference between the Swastika and the Confederate flag and what they truly represent. The Nazi party was about taking over land and eventually genocide. The Confederate states were about protecting their land and their rights. They felt if their slaves were freed, their crops would die out and their economy would be in the shit. Since up to that point, the South had the majority of crops and resources. It was their livelihood. I mean they still didn't see owning slaves as wrong, so I'm not really defending them...I just think Nazis and Confederates are completely different.