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All your euros are belong to Greece. - Page 7

post #301 of 331
Sigur Ros pays for their universal healthcare system

All kidding aside my only point is that maybe there is a different path foward not in doing austerity measures. It appears in my opinion is that austerity has spectacular failed in an epic way. Now on a small scale level in Iceland their anti-austerity measures have worked very well so maybe giving Icelandic economic polices a chance might be the better way foward. I don't know I feel it's worth a shot. Draconian cuts have demolished Greece, Spain and put Britian and France in dreadful recession causing their credit to get downgraded. Austerity dosent work.
Edited by Arturo RJ - 2/27/13 at 1:10pm
post #302 of 331

Okay, gotcha.  USA is facing it's own Austerity with the sequester this Friday.

post #303 of 331
Ugh don't remind me. So stupid. Both sides are against it and totally avoidable yet no one will do anything about just dumb. It dosent do anything to fix the defecit and just hurts people who need services and makes it harder for the government to do their job. I don't mind the cuts to the milatary as defense spending is out of control and needs to be reigned in. But the rest? Just awful. Social security and Medicare don't do anything adverse to the economy but milatary spending and medical costs do. If we had a single payer health care system we'd be perfectly fine.
post #304 of 331
Article in The Economist about whether Austerity is working and if the opinion on it is changing. I'm super against Austerity but the data seems to show it has in fact not worked.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2013/03/austerity
post #305 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo RJ View Post

Article in The Economist about whether Austerity is working and if the opinion on it is changing. I'm super against Austerity but the data seems to show it has in fact not worked.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2013/03/austerity


 

It always fails, but the right wing never tires of invoking it. 

post #306 of 331
Good call EU! Yeah instead of thinking of ways to improve the economy of the Eurozone, worrying about pornography way more important! What are you Arkansas or Mississippi? Just stupid.

http://falkvinge.net/2013/03/06/next-tuesday-the-european-parliament-votes-to-ban-all-your-porn-yes-really-take-immediate-action/
post #307 of 331
post #308 of 331

The terms of Cyprus' EU Bailout?  A seven to ten percent 'fee' on all savings accounts in the country:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/16/us-eurozone-cyprus-idUSBRE92E02220130316

 

That's unconscionable.

 

Edit, the outrage gets worse:

 

 

 

Quote:
Mr. Sarris said the Cypriot Parliament would adopt the taxes over the weekend and the money would be extracted from accounts before banks take up business Tuesday. Monday is a public holiday.

 

No vote on it either.  So the people are being stolen from DIRECTLY to bail out the banks.


Edited by MrBananaGrabber - 3/16/13 at 4:24pm
post #309 of 331
Thread Starter 
Fuck that.

Inb4 justifiable uprising.
post #310 of 331

Serious question:

 

If you're in any EU country, what's the point of having your money in the bank, now that the precedent has been set for the EU central bank to take whatever they want from your account, with no input from the people?

 

Boom goes Europe?

post #311 of 331
Well now Europeans get a sense why IMF/World Bank are so hated in Unindustrialized nations. They've been doing this to the Americas and Africa for decades. Unfortunately now it's creeping to Europe. They really have to be stopped they have no justification to do this.
post #312 of 331

This whole Cypress thing is interesting. Whether what they are doing is 'proper', there definitely seems to be more backstory to this issue.

 

from Krugman

Quote:

OK, I didn’t see that one coming. With all the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal I wasn’t watching Cyprus. But that’s where the big euro news is this weekend; in return for a bailout, Cyprus is supposed to impose a large haircut — that is, loss — on all depositors in its banks.

 

You can sort of see why they’re doing this: Cyprus is a money haven, especially for the assets of Russian beeznessmen; this means that it has a hugely oversized banking sector (think Iceland) and that a haircut-free bailout would be seen as a bailout, not just of Cyprus, but of Russians of, let’s say, uncertain probity and moral character. (I think it’s interesting that Mohamed El-Erian manages to write about this thing, fairly reasonably, without so much as mentioning the Russian thing.)

 

The big problem, however, is that it’s not just large foreign deposits that are taking a haircut; the haircut on small domestic deposits is a bit smaller, but still substantial. It’s as if the Europeans are holding up a neon sign, written in Greek and Italian, saying “time to stage a run on your banks!”

 

Tomorrow and the days immediately following should be very interesting.

 

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/

 

from the Mohamed El-Erian link

Quote:

The scale of the problem and its concentration in the banking system: Like Ireland a few years ago, Cyprus has been brought to its knees by irresponsible banking. In entrusting funds to Cypriot institutions, depositors (and especially foreign depositors) inadvertently funded the over-extension of the banking system, both domestically and abroad. Now they are being forced to contribute to the bail out.

 

Lax banking regulation: At a time of renewed emphasis on sound banking worldwide, officials have questioned publicly whether Cypriot banks have intermediate funds with dubious origins. By killing once and for all the notion that Cyprus is a safe and lax offshore haven, the levy serves to limit such intermediation in future.

http://blogs.ft.com/the-a-list/2013/03/17/a-muddled-and-dangerous-approach-to-cyprus/#axzz2Nql1CeIu

post #313 of 331

Jesus if I found out that over the weekend the Government had just taken X% of my money from my Checking and Savings accounts I'd be looking to fucking immigrate to Australia or Canada stat. This is really disturbing.

post #314 of 331

Holy shit.  That's blatant theft. 

 

Would a similar action in the USA be constitutional?  I'd have to think that it would never come to pass, but who knows anymore.

post #315 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post

Holy shit.  That's blatant theft. 

 

Would a similar action in the USA be constitutional?  I'd have to think that it would never come to pass, but who knows anymore.

 

FYI - I'm just being rhetorical here....

 

theft...   investment....

 

The line between those have become blurred thanks to the likes of Jamie Dimon and the big 'investment' banks.  I'm not saying what what the Euro Zone has demanded is morally correct, but there is some serious wonky shit happening in the financial markets all around the world. It would seem that it's all about hiding money to avoid taxes.

It's like the world banking industry has become infected with Gordon Gekko disease and I really wonder if the patient(s) are terminal?

Quote:

According to a US Senate report published in May 2013 after 9 months of investigation[40], Dimon misled investors and regulators as losses rose dangerously to $6.2 billions on a “monstrous” derivatives bet made by the so-called "London Whale" Bruno Iksil. According to Carl Levin, Chairman of this panel, JP Morgan had “a trading operation that piled on risk, ignored limits on risk taking, hid losses, dodged oversight and misinformed the public”. Dimon dismissed press accounts of possible losses in Iksil’s book as a “tempest in a teapot” on april 13, 2012 when he new that Iksil had already lost $1 billion, which led Levin to say “None of those statements made on April 13 to the public, to investors, to analysts were true,” and “The bank also neglected to disclose on that day that the portfolio had massive positions that were hard to exit, that they were violating in massive numbers key risk limits.” [41][42]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Dimon#London_Whale

post #316 of 331
A few things to bear in mind:

1 deposits in banks are loans, liable to be lost if the bank gkes bust. There has clearly been a weighing exercise.

2 taxing deposits gets around the EU deposit guarantee. Sucks for the smaller depositors.

3 why did they hit smaller depositors as well? To hide the fact that they weren't prepared to underwrite money laundering. Note that public denials are coming out all over the place on the Russian connection, but there's enough of a stink in the press for it to have come from somewhere.

4 the tax isn't uncompensated. Depositors get bank shares in return (it's a debt for equity swap essentially) with options for gas-revenue tied bonds in a few years. YMMV on whether that's pound-for-pound eventually.

The average Cypriot has every right to be pissed, but the question remains how much worse would it have been had their banks gone bust. Of course, the other question is how much damage will this do to their financial sector, which makes the previous question academic.

What I find interesting is how sympathy has clearly settled with ordinary Cypriots, despite a significant part of their economy having survived on ill gotten gains. I wonder how keen we'd be to voice our support for the citizenry of Cayman, BVI or Aruba?
post #317 of 331

What'll be interesting to see is how the other Euro countries take that news.  Sure, they mitigated the theft with those measures described above, but the newspaper headlines alone from that will be pretty bad and worse, inflammatory.  It just sounds so bad to the Average Joe (jose, jacque, gio?) over there that it could have a pretty big impact, none of it particularly good.

 

Edit: Well, that was fast, hard to tell how bad it is over there, but the new "tax plan" is not off to a good start http://www.npr.org/2013/03/18/174598781/e-u-bailout-tax-causes-bank-run-in-cyprus


Edited by Costco Mike - 3/18/13 at 2:31am
post #318 of 331

It's also worth pointing out that, if I've understood the Western monetary policy response to the financial crisis correctly, the combination of low short term interest rates, and quantitative easing lowering longer term rates, has done the self-same thing as the tax on deposits. Except it's more of a slowly boil the lobster approach to shifting the liability on to depositors.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the view that every 60-year old who worked in the financial services sector or professional service industries for the last thirty years, and/or who has seen their land use related wealth increase disproportionately as the majority of the world slipped into hunger and poverty, should be taxed 100% and made to volunteer for the rest of their lives for room and board. It may not be economically sound, but it would make me feel a whole lot better.

post #319 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costco Mike View Post

What'll be interesting to see is how the other Euro countries take that news.  Sure, they mitigated the theft with those measures described above, but the newspaper headlines alone from that will be pretty bad and worse, inflammatory.  It just sounds so bad to the Average Joe (jose, jacque, gio?) over there that it could have a pretty big impact, none of it particularly good.

 

Edit: Well, that was fast, hard to tell how bad it is over there, but the new "tax plan" is not off to a good start http://www.npr.org/2013/03/18/174598781/e-u-bailout-tax-causes-bank-run-in-cyprus

 

Part (note I say part) of that is media hype though. I've read the reports on most of the "serious" English language newspapers and they're all being economical with the detail for the sake of the story. Some cooler heads are suggesting this will be a few days of nerve-testing then it will pass. I hope so. Last thing we need right now is another sovereign and currency crisis.

 

What upsets me more than anything is that recognition of the massive benefits the EC and later EU have had, and would continue to have, for the majority of the population of the continent is being pissed away. People, especially those we foolishly put in charge, are really quite rubbish. The survivors of WW2 who put together the original deal in Rome must be throwing their hands up in despair. The fact we now have narratives saying pull out of Europe and reinstate in the name of progress and freedom (!) all the dodgy working practices, protectionist war-mongering economic policies, and unequal treatment the bureaucrats and judges in Brussels and Luxembourg (for all the democratic deficit) spent forty years overcoming just makes me want to sit down and cry.

post #320 of 331

Sounds like they're renegotiating the lower band levies. May turn out to have been the mother and father of all "flag pole runs".

 

I'm amused to see how snarky everyone is about Putin's interjection, even amongst those who have been appalled by the intial reports on the deposit tax. He really has zero credibility outside his home country.

post #321 of 331

Today's Krug

 

Quote:

How big a deal is the Russian factor in Cyprus’s crisis? Pretty big, it seems. Over at FT Alphaville, Izabella Kaminska reports on estimates of 19 billion euros in Russian nationals’ deposits in Cyprus banks, which is more than the country’s GDP. Without being an expert here, I wonder whether this is an understatement; given what we think we know about the nature of much of this Russian money, is all of it really being declared as Russian?

 

Let me make a broader point: we’ve now seen three island nations around Europe become huge international banking hubs relative to their GDPs, then get into crisis because their domestic economies don’t have the resources to bail out those metastasized banking systems if something goes wrong. This strongly suggests, to me at least, that we have a fundamental problem with the whole architecture (to use the preferred fancy word) of international finance.

post #322 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhp1608 View Post

It's also worth pointing out that, if I've understood the Western monetary policy response to the financial crisis correctly, the combination of low short term interest rates, and quantitative easing lowering longer term rates, has done the self-same thing as the tax on deposits. Except it's more of a slowly boil the lobster approach to shifting the liability on to depositors.

 

That's a good point.  Huge psychological difference between the two. 

 

One the one hand: "I expect to earn this much less on my deposits (savings, retirement, etc)"

 

On the other: "I just bounced a check, and am being charged fees because of the haircut, or a small business can't make payroll because of the haircut, etc."

post #323 of 331

If memory serves, foreign depositors (perhaps even local, I can't remember) took a bath in Iceland when their banks collapsed, leading to half a decade of litigation and counting. They probably figured it would be marginally cleaner this way, savings losses would be crystallised immediately and banks wouldn't go bust.

 

Also? Less chance of a porn ban.

post #324 of 331
Man Cyprus is totally screwed! A 100 Euro limit for withdrawals that a terrible sign. This could be the spark to ignite the Eurozone financial explosion this could get ugly fast.

http://rt.com/business/cyprus-bailout-withdrawal-banks-756/
post #325 of 331

Yeah, that's not going to calm the bank runs in Spain, Italy, Portugal, and maybe even France.

 

Of course the US markets are doing great, as more investors look to them as a safe haven.

 

Globalism!

post #326 of 331
post #327 of 331
Thread Starter 

I'd wager Putin is pretty pissed.

post #328 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

I'd wager Putin is pretty pissed.

 

Just a guess, but it may be a really cold winter in eastern Europe this year.

post #329 of 331
Thread Starter 

Inb4 unexplained deaths.

post #330 of 331

There's a larger geo-political game being played, quite apart from the issue of insolvent finance sectors and who pays the piper. Russia and the EU are currently engaged in a slow burning wrestling match over gas supplies to the continent. Russia thought they had it sown up, but the EU is now getting on board the fracking bus which is bothering Gazprom, Rosneft and their joint CEO, Vlady Pu.

post #331 of 331
Throwing Bananas at the first Italian PM of African decent. Oh man that's just unacceptable Italians! I get that her proposal is kind of pouring salt on the wounds considering how bad their economy is but come on! I think it's nice sentiment to give citizenship to those people but in a bad economy it's politically stupid. God Italy is so screwed. So when is the revolution going down?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3662860/
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