CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › All your euros are belong to Greece.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

All your euros are belong to Greece. - Page 2

post #51 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Daywalker View Post

Americans should be watching Greece closely.



At this point we all should. They're like the canary in the coal mine right now, the economic equivilant of Franz Ferdinand swanning around just asking to be assassinated.

 

For what it's worth Stel, we've got the largest greek population in Melbourne outside of Greece (as I'm sure you already know - hell I'm guessing you have friends or family out here), the weather is varied, the people are relaxed and intelligent and there aren't riots going on down the street. 

 

You're welcome here if it comes down to fending off the enraged hordes with sharpened sticks while desperately foraging for food and petrol.

post #52 of 330

Having just moved to LA I have front row seats for any crazy that happens.

 

Will the United States go all crazed like the Greek? I doubt it.  At least not on their scale.

post #53 of 330

Anarchy or Totalitarianism?

 

Whoever wins we lose.

 

Welcome to the end of the golden age.

 

Where we go from here is a choice I leave up to you.

post #54 of 330

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about stuff that will happen to the US based on what's going on here. Your chrash dominoed into ours but their reasons are diametrically opposite.And so are the tools each of us has to deal with it. I could go into more depth about what I believe caused this shitstorm but I wouldn't want to bore anyone. 

post #55 of 330
Thread Starter 

Facts and insight are never boring!

post #56 of 330
The reason America should be watching closely is due to them being the most exposed to Greek debt out of any nation. If Greece defaults it could start a second global recession, but that's looking more and more unlikely.
Edited by Nabster - 6/29/11 at 7:54am
post #57 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

We're doing quite shit, actually. The whole private sector is in shambles, which is funny since it is the public sector that needs to be razed to the ground if we're to actually recover. Something that doesn't seem to be in the minds of either the government or the EU. The government seems content with squeezing the life out of private employees and pensioners making the obscene amount of money of 500 to 700€ per month while leaving the public sector, what's left of their powerbase unmolested


I've been trying to work out how to say this politely, but I can't, so fuck it. Is this general demonisation of the public sector rife in Greece? I only ask because at the moment The Conservatives are trying to dismantle the Public Sector in Britain and the more right leaning newspapers are leading with stories about lazy Public Sector workers and golden handshake pension packages. I can't help but read that you want to see the Public Sector razed to the ground and think of you as somewhat right-wing. But that could be because I don't understand the situation in Greece.

 

post #58 of 330

People seem interested so I might as well try. Sorry about the long post and the history lesson in advance.

 

To make a long story short, the last 37 years have been the longest period of domestic stability and unbroken democracy since the founding of the modern Greek state. From the first time Greece went bankrupt in 1897, which by the way led to a five decades long state monopoly on various commodities so that our loans could be paid, we've been involved in four regional wars, two world wars, three dictatorships (one fascist, two nationalist), a civil war and various massive population displacements, the biggest of those being the one in 1922 which amounted to almost 20% of the country's population. During the 1940 to 1948 period for example casualties amounted to 15% of the population. So we really haven't had time to ingrain ourselves with any sort of civic responsibility, since most of the time half the country was busy trying to kill the other half. Still, since the Greeks have traditionaly been quite frugal and hard working, the mostly conservative governments managed to keep a pretty nice rate of developement going. The biggest problem was that the left was outlawed until 1974. And after decades of constant manhunts they were naturally determined to get theirs. No one can blame them. Up to then they couldn't be employed in the public sector, the army, the police, things were pretty shitty for them. 

 

So we're at 1974. The prime minister then, was determined to drag the country into Europe no matter what. So for the next few years he ran a pretty tight ship. Even thought the country seemed to be going well, the people weren't seeing much of an improvement. Which brings us to the modern socialist party. It was founded in 1975 by the father of our current prime minister based on enabling the up to then discriminated against people to get a taste of power. They eventually won the elections a year after Greece was accepted in the EEC. Then they proceeded to do what they promised and "redistribute the wealth." But because they were bullshit socialists, with no intention of cutting ties with the ruling class, they didn't redistribute the wealth that already existed. Based on the fact that the Greek economy was up until then pretty tightly run they went on a borrow and spend spree, in the form of an explosive expansion of the public sector both in numbers and benefits. My mother who was a nurse at the time, saw her pay more than double in just over 18 months. The economy just couldn;t handle it. Inflation and deficit spiralled out of control but whenever time came for the bills to be paid the government would devalue the currency. So that brings us to the end of the eighties with an economy completely reliant on outside borrowing in order to function.

 

Now it's the nineties. The socialist goverment has fallen and the right once again takes over. Since they have been brow beaten for a decade though, they lack the fortitude to implement any sort of a recovery program. For a few years things stagnate, neither getting better nor worse. But then a deus ex machina appears in the form of the stock market. Both the right governement and the subsequent socialist one look to the market as the savior of our deficit riddled economy. Anything that isn't nailed down is thrown into the stock market. The ASE index lifts off from 800-900 points to almost 6000. A feeding frenzy in which not only the state but almost anyone with money to spend joins in ensues. When the bubble bursts it takes with it not only large parts of the states reserves but most of the liquid assets of the market. Almost overnight the Greek economy goes from cash heavy, to being completely credit dependent.

 

It's 2000 and the governments start lying through their teeth. They're cooking numbers like crazy in order to hit the goals the EU sets. Everyone including the European Commission knows that, but money is still cheap and every lender thinks that they can fix things by throwing more money at them. The banks are making out like bandits, though. Until the crash happens and suddenly everything grinds to a halt. Which brings us to now.

 

With a cash starved private sector. Zero private investment. A hillariously overstaffed public sector. A disorganized, incompetent and illogical tax system based on basically ransoming taxes from those without the means to cheat it. These are the things that need fixing. But neither the EU nor the government seem interested in fixing these. They'd rather ransom as much money out the same people as possible without even a slight thought towards the future. Just make the next payment. That's what's pissing me off. 

post #59 of 330

I don't say this often, but that's a great, fascinating, post.

 

Thanks for sharing.

post #60 of 330

stelios, thanks for that summary. I feel horrible for what is happening in your country, but I also find it hard to fully understand the situation, so your insight is greatly appreciated.

post #61 of 330

Yea, great post Stellios.  Isn't it true, things could never have gotten to this point, if Goldmen Sachs didn't cook the books and help hide the debt?

 

I'm sure you're correct that the EU knew the books were cooked, but did everyone really know the books were cooked?  Because if they knew Greek securites were laden with so much hidden debt, why would all these banks be exposed to billions of dollars worth of them?  It seems to me Greece, the EU, and Goldman Sachs colluded to get Greece into the Euro Zone, at the expense of other investors.

post #62 of 330

EUROSTAT came out numerous times over the years and asked us to correct our books because they were iregular. Each and every time the issue was buried after what I can only assume was political and financial pressure. Everyone and their illiterate grandmother knew the books were cooked.

 

Not trying to divert blame by the way. 90% of our problems come from grosss mismanagement. Everyone else turning a blind eye to them only postponed the inevitable.

post #63 of 330

If you're up for it, and you're not busy boarding up the windows and heating up that can of stewed tomatoes, any chance of an update from the coalface Stelios?

 

How long do you give your government before the now (surely) imminent default?

post #64 of 330

Well, after dragging our feet for almost two years the committee finally decided to put the knife on our ridiculous government's throat. So instead of choking the fuck out the market trying to squeeze blood from a stone, the public sector is coming up to the chopping block. Finally. Of course being so late in doing so made sure that we won't see the light for the better part of the next decade but hey, we made our own bed. But I don't see an actual default coming up. The cost of that is bigger than the cost of them actually bailing us out.

 

Anyway, screw Greece. We've been through worse stuff. We'll eat shit until the time comes we can stop. Then we'll go back to business as usual.

 

What really worries me is Europe. I'm a pretty hardcore, borderline fanatical European federalist and I really want us to see that only by tight integration and unification we will be as strong as we are supposed to be. If that means giving up national sovereignty, so be it. I find this brand of 19th century nationalism, besides absurd, quite antithetical to what being Greek is supposed to be. There's all this whining about being puppets of foreign organizations and national this and that. Nonsense. I want to grab these people and remind them that not that long ago we still referred to ourselves as Romans. For fuck's sake the second most famous saying during our Independence was is "I was born a Roman and I will die a Roman."

 

Bah, I'm rumbling. I just hate seeing so much potential wasted because of stupid ideologies. 

post #65 of 330

So, stel - this referendum huh? Thoughts?

 

 

 

Quote:

Is Athens ready to quit the zone?

Steven Erlanger 
November 3, 2011 - 3:00AM

 

THE crisis of the euro zone has finally hit the potholed road of real politics, with the Greeks now openly questioning whether their commitment to Europe and its single currency still matters more to them than control over their own future and economic well-being.

During the two-year financial crisis, the wealthier countries of northern Europe, led by Germany, have insisted that their heavily indebted brethren in the south radically cut spending in return for emergency loans. They have stuck to that prescription even though austerity has undermined growth and increased unemployment in Greece, Spain, Portugal and now Italy, betting that people in those countries would swallow the harsh medicine because their only alternative is to default and possibly leave the euro zone altogether.

The turmoil in the government of Prime Minister George Papandreou means that Greece is about to call that bet. Many Greek politicians appear to be calculating, at this late stage, that they have more to lose by sticking to Germany's terms than by risking a messy default, and even going it alone with their old currency, the drachma, outside the euro zone.

Austerity, in other words, is facing its first really big political test.

Mr Papandreou's decision to press for a popular referendum on the bailout was the inevitable result of Greece's loss of sovereignty to Brussels and the International Monetary Fund.

A Greek rejection of the deal could at the very least put new pressure on the European Central Bank to continue to prop up heavily indebted nations by buying their debt or even becoming a lender of last resort, like the US Federal Reserve. That is a step that is anathema to Germans, who see it as violating European treaties to benefit irresponsible nations. But treaties can be changed, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy still considers the bank to be the best answer to the problem of how to set up a firewall to protect the vulnerable as they try to fix themselves.

NEW YORK TIMES

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/is-athens-ready-to-quit-the-zone-20111102-1mvp3.html

 

 

post #66 of 330
post #67 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

So, stel - this referendum huh? Thoughts?

 

 

 

 


First of all, there's NO way the people vote against the EU. Absolutely no way. There are several parties that would like to hijack this popular discontent and spin it into some anti-European sentiment. It is not.

 

What pisses me off is their stupid timing. I may be certain of the outcome but it is not a sentiment shared by everyone. Especially the markets. And if there's one thing we do not want at this point is uncertainty. Things are precarious enough without having a live grenade potentially about to go off. You want to ask the people what they want you witless moron? DO IT WHEN THERE IS TIME FOR ANYTHING ELSE TO BE DONE!

 

I'm so pissed off. After two years of the Greek economy crumbling, they thought to have a referendum now? After the rest of the EU finally grew some balls and decided to take actual measures? I'm mad at everyone. I'm at the point where if I wasn't afraid that us defaulting could drag the EU down and give the anti-EU UK cunts and their US based "special relationship" pimps the satisfaction, I'd be all for it. Thinking of my country as being a burden to others makes me fume. 

 

 

post #68 of 330
post #69 of 330

Of course it was. Fucking shithead for a prime minister. The good news is that even if he makes it past the weekend he won't see the end of next week.

post #70 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post



First of all, there's NO way the people vote against the EU. Absolutely no way. There are several parties that would like to hijack this popular discontent and spin it into some anti-European sentiment. It is not.

What pisses me off is their stupid timing. I may be certain of the outcome but it is not a sentiment shared by everyone. Especially the markets. And if there's one thing we do not want at this point is uncertainty. Things are precarious enough without having a live grenade potentially about to go off. You want to ask the people what they want you witless moron? DO IT WHEN THERE IS TIME FOR ANYTHING ELSE TO BE DONE!

I'm so pissed off. After two years of the Greek economy crumbling, they thought to have a referendum now? After the rest of the EU finally grew some balls and decided to take actual measures? I'm mad at everyone. I'm at the point where if I wasn't afraid that us defaulting could drag the EU down and give the anti-EU UK cunts and their US based "special relationship" pimps the satisfaction, I'd be all for it. Thinking of my country as being a burden to others makes me fume. 


Well, I suppose I qualify as a UK quasi-cunt. I am not anti EU but I have always been against the Euro and have never liked the pompous wankers in charge of the EU. Even in University - 13 years ago - it seemed stupid to include so many divergent economies in one currency. Monetery union without fiscal union equals big problems. You're right Stelios, closer integration - fiscal and possibly political - is needed in the long term, to stop this mess happening again. But in the short term they need to put a firewall around Greece to stop healthier countries like Italy and Spain defaulting.

Personally, I'm not sure Greece was ready to join the Eurozone back in 02, but the self-serving EU politicians didn't want to admit it and lose face.
post #71 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluelouboyle View Post
 
Well, I suppose I qualify as a UK quasi-cunt. I am not anti EU but I have always been against the Euro and have never liked the pompous wankers in charge of the EU. Even in University - 13 years ago - it seemed stupid to include so many divergent economies in one currency. Monetery union without fiscal union equals big problems. You're right Stelios, closer integration - fiscal and possibly political - is needed in the long term, to stop this mess happening again. But in the short term they need to put a firewall around Greece to stop healthier countries like Italy and Spain defaulting.

Personally, I'm not sure Greece was ready to join the Eurozone back in 02, but the self-serving EU politicians didn't want to admit it and lose face.

 


Disclaimer: I don't think everyone in the UK are cunts. There is a big part of the political system that wished the Isles were closer to the US rather than Europe, though.

 

As for your second point, you're 100% right. And when Eurostat came out and said so guess what happened? First we threw some money at all these glorious financial institutions that now upgrade and downgrade whole countries to help us cook the books better. Then, behind closed doors the leaders of the EU said: "Don't worry, there's enough money around. We'll just keep throwing them at the problem until it goes away."

 

Until the glorious financial institutions that helped us cook the books ate shit and the money ran out. 

 

post #72 of 330
Stelios: I just wanted to say that I appreciate and respect your point of view on this issue. Thanks for providing 'on the frontline ' insight to those of us outside of Europe...I suspect we'll all be going through similar hardships in the next decade.
post #73 of 330

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/greece-the-debtor-that-roared.html

 

Interesting bit of commentary on the Greek referendum kerfuffle. It's worth noting that the EU forgot the first principle of banking: when you owe the bank one million dollars, the bank owns you, but when you owe the bank one billion dollars (or hundreds of billions in this case), you own the bank.  I think the Chinese are starting to figure this out, which is why they're beginning to shy away from lending to the stabilization fund for the Eurozone.

 

Stel--I get you're pissed, and rightfully so, but the Germans need to understand that inflation isn't the sole reason for a strong central bank.  The collapse of the Eurozone, which a disorderly Greek default could bring about, is a much more pressing issue than the possibility of a Wiemar-like scenario.  I think Papandreu's (sp?) move may have been a good wake-up call to everyone involved.  The plan proposed by the Troika/DE/FR wasn't going to do much.

post #74 of 330

The Germans are positively psychotic about inflation. Their absolute rejection of any measures that would trigger a small rise is very limiting to the European economy. A whole set of economic tools for getting out of a recession is being ignored.

 

In fact our ability to drop our inflation sufficiently was a big factor in them turning a blind eye to our economy's other huge problems and letting us join the Euro.

 

And Judas, thanks for the kind words. I sincerely hope this mess can be contained to us as much as possible.

post #75 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

Of course it was. Fucking shithead for a prime minister. The good news is that even if he makes it past the weekend he won't see the end of next week.


Welp, turns out I was right. The heads of the two big parties have met with the president of the republic and decided to form a unity government to push through what was decided in Oct. 26 and then go immediately to elections. Tomorrow morning Greece will have a new government. 

 

 

post #76 of 330

Stel, it's hard to trust the news on this side of the Atlantic, but what I gather is that Papandreo's (sp?) referendum vote is like what they did in Iceland, which to me seems like a good thing--basically telling the banking swindlers to suck it.  On the other hand, this would get Greece kicked out of the Eurozone and cause economic havoc.  Is that anywhere close to what's going on?  And what do you think is the answer?  Greece was overleveraged to begin with and then Goldman Sachs made it worse, but it seems to me that austerity will wreck the economy also, and that tax evasion on the top brackets is as bad there as it is here. 

post #77 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

Stel, it's hard to trust the news on this side of the Atlantic, but what I gather is that Papandreo's (sp?) referendum vote is like what they did in Iceland, which to me seems like a good thing--basically telling the banking swindlers to suck it.  On the other hand, this would get Greece kicked out of the Eurozone and cause economic havoc.  Is that anywhere close to what's going on?  And what do you think is the answer?  Greece was overleveraged to begin with and then Goldman Sachs made it worse, but it seems to me that austerity will wreck the economy also, and that tax evasion on the top brackets is as bad there as it is here. 

 


The moron didn't even say what the referendum was going to be about. This was never about doing what the people wanted. Just retarded political tricks. Plus, the huge majority of the people were against this referendum. 70% to 80% if the polls are to be believed. And my personal experience supports this. We don't want to help them hide from their responsibilities behind our skirts. They must do their fucking job.

 

The past few days I went from being angry at the whole situation to just being amused.

 
 
 

 

 

post #78 of 330

Take care sir!

post #79 of 330

Italy's bond kablooey is overshadowing Greece, while France Germany and Belgium consider kicking everyone else out of the Euro treefort:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-eurozone-future-sarkozy-idUSTRE7A85VV20111109

post #80 of 330

A nice little catch-you-up to where we are right now:

 

 

 

Quote:
Well I promised the Crikey editor that today I would not write about Greece and Italy. That decision has been rescinded, by Greece and Italy. For the first time since the European debt crisis began last year, the prospect of a break-up of the euro became a very real and present possibility today. The main cause was the sudden spike in the Italian new bond rate, to 7.5%, as m’colleague Jo McKenna notes, but across the sea, Greece outdid its Mediterranean cousin in bringing da chaos.
 
Last night, in Athens, there was still no new prime minister or cabinet, despite talks and negotiations going all day. Indeed, there is now no clear front runner for the job. Previous candidate Lucas Papademos, former ECB wonk, has faded from the running, and all talk is now of Filippos Petsalnikos, currently the parliamentary speaker, and a Pasok member. New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras was quoted as saying that he had “no problem” with Petsalnikos as leader, or anyone else George Papandreou could come up with.
 
The issue was deferred to a meeting at 6pm, Athens time, with the expectation that it would end with the naming of a PM and cabinet. However, leader of the New Orthodoxy party, Giorgos Karatzaferis, left the meeting an hour after it began, accusing Papandreou and Samaras of “playing politics” — the horror! The meeting broke up, with no resolution and the gob-smacking announcement that it would reconvene at 10am tomorrow (about 7pm today Australian time). Since the meeting was preceded by a lachrymose farewell speech by Papandreou, saying that he was leaving to show that Greeks can “all work together”, the sense of absurdity was complete.
 
The demise of Papademos as a likely candidate was said to be a response to the demands he was making of both parties — chiefly, a longer period of “caretaker” government than the three months set down, and a sideways move for Evangelos Venizelos, the finance minister, deputy PM and de facto leader of Greece. Venizelos is reputed to have vetoed Papademos, but other Pasok MPs are said to be objecting to the selection of Petsalnikos as PM.
 
A half-dozen other names had been suggested throughout the day, prompting one blogger to note that the news agencies were being used by the numerous factions of the major parties to run their own agendas, a measure of the degree to which a process originally intended to be a response to crisis, has become bogged down in politics as usual. Indeed, the crisis now has a decidedly vertiginous aspect — since Papandreou has now officially resigned, and Greece tonight may or may not have a prime minister.
 
Italy remains the linchpin, the only major economy with a 7% interest rate danger bailout threshold, due to its high borrowings. But the concern now, at the higher end, is “contagion”, with the bond rates for Spain and France creeping up, north of 4%. No one supposes that they will be in a default zone, but the problem is that the situation will tie up all of southern Europe, Ireland and France — a pretty major chunk of Europe — in a debt trap, pitching the continent into a decade of stagnation.
 
The exception is, of course, Germany, whose borrowing costs are falling, and the gap between northern and southern Europe widening. That in itself is damages the euro further, since one monetary policy must now cover radically different demands. Germany’s continued refusal to allow for direct intervention by the ECB, to guarantee the supply of money is a mild version of the tension that might later result.
 
That’s at the big end. At the narrow end, it is surely the capacity of national politics, a la Greece, to drift away from any sense of present emergency, and back into party politics, that would add to the sense that, impossible as it may seem, there may come a point where the euro is simply irrecoverable. As Paul Krugman has noted:
 
“I still find it hard to believe that the euro will fail; but it seems equally hard to believe that Europe will do what’s needed to avoid that failure. Irresistible force, meet immovable object — and watch the explosion.”

 

post #81 of 330
More cheer from The Economist:

http://www.economist.com/node/21536872?fsrc=scn/tw/te/ar/staringintotheabyss

"Many roads to disaster

While the world waits for Europe to make up its mind, catastrophe is in the air. It could take many forms. A country might storm out of the euro—which the treaty forbids, but who could stop a determined government? European banks might suffer a fatal loss of confidence. Italy or Spain might become unable to borrow on decent terms. Or a government trying to impose austerity might be replaced by one that rejects it. Any of these could cause contagion and plunge the world economy into depression."
post #82 of 330
post #83 of 330

The Complete And Annotated Guide To The European Bank Run (Or The Final Phase Of Goldman's World Domination Plan)

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/complete-and-annotated-guide-european-bank-run

 

 

"Nervous investors around the globe are accelerating their exit from the debt of European governments and banks, increasing the risk of a credit squeeze that could set off a downward spiral. Financial institutions are dumping their vast holdings of European government debt and spurning new bond issues by countries like Spain and Italy. And many have decided not to renew short-term loans to European banks, which are needed to finance day-to-day operations. " So begins an article not in some hyperventilating fringe blog, but a cover article in the venerable New York Times titled "Europe Fears a Credit Squeeze as Investors Sell Bond Holdings." Said otherwise, Europe's continental bank run in which virtually, but not quite, all banks are dumping any peripheral exposure with reckless abandon is now on. Granted, considering the epic collapse in bond prices of Italian, French, Austrian, Hungarian, Spanish and Belgian bonds which all hit record wide yields and spreads in the past week, and furthermore following last week's "Sold To You": European Banks Quietly Dumping €300 Billion In Italian Debt" which predicted precisely this outcome, the news is not much of a surprise. However, learning that everyone (with two exceptions) has given up on Europe's financial system should send a shudder through the back of everyone who still is capable of independent thought - because said otherwise, the world's largest economic block is becoming unglued, and its entire financial system is on the edge of a complete meltdown. And just to make sure that various fringe bloggers who warned this would happen over a year ago no longer lead to the hyperventilation of the venerable NYT, below, with the help of Goldman's Jernej Omahan, we bring to our readers the complete annotated and abbreviated beginner's guide to the pan-European bank run.

But first some more details from the NYT:

The flight from European sovereign debt and banks has spanned the globe. European institutions like the Royal Bank of Scotland and pension funds in the Netherlands have been heavy sellers in recent days. And earlier this month, Kokusai Asset Management in Japan unloaded nearly $1 billion in Italian debt.

 

At the same time, American institutions are pulling back on loans to even the sturdiest banks in Europe. When a $300 million certificate of deposit held by Vanguard’s $114 billion Prime Money Market Fund from Rabobank in the Netherlands came due on Nov. 9, Vanguard decided to let the loan expire and move the money out of Europe. Rabobank enjoys a AAA-credit rating and is considered one of the strongest banks in the world.

 

American money market funds, long a key supplier of dollars to European banks through short-term loans, have also become nervous. Fund managers have cut their holdings of notes issued by euro zone banks by $261 billion from around its peak in May, a 54 percent drop, according to JPMorgan Chase research.

Is this setting familiar to anyone? It should be: "Experts say the cycle of anxiety, forced selling and surging borrowing costs is reminiscent of the months before the collapse of Lehman Brothers in 2008, when worries about subprime mortgages in the United States metastasized into a global market crisis." 

Ah, but there is one major difference: last time around, the banks were not all in on the wrong side of the world's worst poker hand (as described by Kyle Bass earlier). Now they are. And should Europe's banks begin a domino-like spiral of collapse, there will be nobody to bail out first Europe, then Japan, then China, then the US and finally the world.

But lest someone suggest this is merely the deranged ramblings of yet another blogger, here is Goldman Sachs with a far more cool, calm and collected explanation for why we should all panic (which comes at the sublime moment: just as Goldman takes over all the key political locus points of the European continent: more on that in the conclusion...)

Core’ banks cut GIIPS debt by €42 bn (-31%) in 3Q; a manifestation of PSI side-effects? 

 

In 3Q2011, banks from the ‘core’ cut their net GIIPS sovereign debt holdings by €42 bn (or by one-third), mostly Italian (€26 bn), Spanish (€7 bn) and Greek (markdown of €7 bn). French and Benelux banks cut their exposures most, by €21 bn and €9 bn, respectively. GIIPS portfolios remained unchanged with periphery banks.

 

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.32.37%20PM.png

 

Greek PSI sets a risky precedent, in our view, as the prospect of ‘voluntary’ haircuts becoming a template for GIIPS crisis resolution could drive exposure reduction. Core banks now have €88 bn of GIIPS sovereign bonds remaining. We expect this to decline. Problematically, we observe that GIIPS bond reductions are not resulting in ‘core’ bond purchases but in a rise in deposits at the ECB.

 

  • The disposal of GIIPS sovereign debt accelerated during 3Q2011, and we highlight the following.
  • Banks cut net GIIPS sovereign exposure by €43 bn. The largest reductions relate to Italian (€26 bn), Spanish (€7 bn) and Greek (€7 bn) net sovereign debt positions.
  • Almost all of the reduction (€42 bn) came from banks in the European ‘core’, where the GIIPS bond positions therefore fell by just over one-third (31%). At the same time the banks from the ‘periphery’ kept their exposures unchanged.
  • French (€21 bn) and Benelux (€9 bn) banks reduced their exposure most.
  • Individually BNP (€12 bn), KBC (€4.4 bn), SG (€4.1 bn), BARC (€3.5 bn) and ING (€3.5 bn) cut the net sovereign exposures most, in absolute terms.

 

We expect this trend to extend into 4Q and to ultimately lead to a long-term reduction GIIPS bond holdings by core banks.

 

Greek PSI – and the ‘voluntary’ 50% haircut – has changed the risk perception of GIIPS bonds. We believe it has allowed for an assumption that PSI will be used as a template in helping other GIIPS sovereigns improve their public finances. Such intention is denied by policy makers. Banks, on the other hand, express their view of the likelihood of such an event through the changes in their net positions.

 

It is important to emphasizes that a bank’s decision to hold sovereign debt is not an expression of an investment preference. Rather, it is a decision related to liquidity management. As such banks seek ‘risk free’ assets that can be used to access liquidity at any time, particularly at the time of crisis. Regulators continue to treat sovereign debt as highest-quality and risk free (0% risk-weight) collateral. With no RWA constraint and full refinancing eligibility, banks are encouraged to hold sovereign debt; its (selective) transition from a ‘risk free’ to a ‘risk’ asset is therefore unexpected and highly damaging.

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.33.07%20PM.png

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.33.14%20PM.png

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.33.34%20PM.png

Earlier we said all but two entities have been dumping PIIGS (or GIIPS as Goldman prefers to call them). Sure enough, one of the unlucky two tasked with buying everything sold in the secondary market is of course the ECB: the same bank that everyone is accusing of not doing more to help.

 

Funding: Increasingly reliant on the ECB

 

The use of ECB facilities rose again in October, driven by Spanish (€7 bn) and Italian (€6 bn) banks. For 4Q, we expect a sharp increase in use by Italian banks, driven by: (1) LCH’s increased margin requirements on Italian REPOs, which now make market REPOs comparatively more expensive than those at the ECB; and (2) a steady fading of the ECB funding ‘stigma’. It is possible that the majority of the €300 bn of interbank funding and market REPOs could end up on ECB’s balance sheet. That alone would have the capacity to lift current ECB use from €579 bn to just below €900 bn. This level of use would compare with previous crisis peak levels (2009) of €870-897 bn.

 

We have long argued that the ECB has capacity to back-stop bank funding requirements – and there is no change to this view. That said, a gradual closing of the last functioning wholesale funding market – short-term REPOs, backed by government bonds – is certainly not an encouraging sign. The re-opening of the long-term funding markets has been pushed further out, in our view.

 

LCH triggers increased margin requirements on Italian REPOs

 

On November 9, 2011, LCH.Clearnet (LCH) announced its decision to increase ‘deposit factors’ applied to Italian debt repo transactions (e.g. haircut on collateral) by 3.5% to 5% depending on the duration of the collateral. The move was not a surprise as LCH’s Risk Management Framework states that it “would generally consider a spread of 450bp over the 10-year AAA benchmark to be indicative of additional sovereign risk”, which may cause it to “materially increase the margin required for positions in that issuer”. Previously, ECB interventions kept the spreads below the key trigger level of 450bp.

 

Italian banks likely to switch to the ECB

 

Owing to increased margin requirement, market REPOs have become more expensive. In our view, the banks are therefore likely to look for alternative sources of funding, especially with the ECB.

 

Typically, the cost a bank faces to fund a sovereign bond portfolio through a tri-party repo transaction consists of: (i) the funding rate (‘repo rate’) for the duration of the repo and applied to the market value of the bonds; and (ii) additional funding costs, mostly in the form of the haircut/margin required by the Central Clearing House as collateral. The higher the haircut/margin level and the marginal funding cost, the higher the cost of the borrowing, which becomes ineffective when it exceeds the cost of the ECB repo facility (1.5% repo rate + haircut funding cost).

 

The Italian banks’ funding currently includes €155 bn of customer repos and €193 bn of interbank funding exposure to non resident MFIs. The large portion of the latter takes the form of secured funding (repos). In addition, the Italian banks currently draw on €111 bn of ECB funding.

 

It is possible that the majority of the €300 bn of interbank funding and market REPOs could end up on the ECB’s balance sheet. That alone would have the capacity to lift current ECB use from €579 bn to just below €900 bn. This level of use would compare with previous crisis peak levels (2009) of €870-897 bn.

So just why again is it that anyone accuses the ECB of doing nothing? When all is said and done under the current regime, the ECB balance sheet will be just under €2 trillion, and that is without any incremental printing, courtesy of the farce that is "sterilization" with banks which exist only due to the ECB, thereby making said sterilization about the most idiotic thing ever conceived. Yet that is what spin is for...

In the meantime, the European shadow banking system is on the verge of a complete shutdown, with repos of all shapes and sizes about go dark.

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.33.43%20PM.png

And summarizing all of the above visually, here come the charts:

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.33.56%20PM.png

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.34.11%20PM.png

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.34.23%20PM.png

Screen%20shot%202011-11-19%20at%206.34.32%20PM.png

And while we already discussed that one half of Europe's dumb money is the ECB by necessity, to get the answer for who is the other half we go back to our post from last Friday:

Completing the picture is the answer of who the dumb money is:

Italian bonds still have one support bloc. Domestic banks appear to be holding on to their much larger holdings. As of last December, EBA stress tests showed Intesa Sanpaolo held €60bn of Italian debt. UniCredit and Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena held €49bn and €32bn respectively. Recent results indicate that those holdings have changed little.

 

“We will keep investing the largest part of our liquidity in Italian government bonds,” said Corrado Passera, chief executive officer at Intesa Sanpaolo, in a call with analysts this week. “We believe they provide the right yields vis-à-vis the cost. So no policy change on our side.”

 

Still, according to the investment banker advising firms on their Italian holdings, the domestic banks’ decisions to hold on could have more to do with their inability to offload such large amounts quickly and without deep losses. Indeed, some Italian bankers seem resigned to the situation.

 

Capital concerns are also preventing them from selling. “The key issue is on solvency and I think they made a mistake in requiring us to hold more capital,” said the chief executive of a mid-sized Italian bank. “To meet these levels we cannot sell too much of our sovereign debt.”

So instead of selling, Italian banks are doing all they can to dodecatuple down and...buy!?

To summarize: everyone is dumping European paper, except for the ECB and Italian banks, which have no choice and instead have to double down and buy more. In the meantime, the market is going increasingly bidless as liquidity evaporates, confidence has disappeared and virtually everyone now expects a repeat of Lehman brothers. Of course, this means that when the bottom finally out from the market, the implosion of the Italian banking system, and thus economy, will be instantaneous. And when Italy goes, so goes its $2 trillion+ in sovereign debt, and at that point we will see just how effectively hedged and offloaded the rest of the world is, as contagion shifts from Italy and slowly but surely engulfs the entire world.

Incidentally, is it really that surprising that Goldman is now doing its best to precipitate a bank run of Europe's major financial institutions by "suddenly" exposing the truth that was there all along? During the great financial crisis of 2008, the one biggest winner from the collapse of Bear and Lehman was none other than the squid. This time around, Goldman has set its sights on Europe and has already made sure that its tentacles will be in firmly in control at all the right places when the collapse comes, as the Independent shows.

Pg-12-eurozone-graphic.jpg

And when banks are falling over like houses of cards in the middle of a tornado cluster, and the financial power vacuum is in desperate need to be filled, who will step in once again but... Goldman Sachs.

post #84 of 330

If we're doomed to live in a corporation-controlled dystopia, can't we at least get some better art direction?  A new life awaiting us in the Offworld Colonies?  Anything?

post #85 of 330
Now the markets are worried about Germany:

THE bad news out of Europe is coming fast and thick now. Markets were still digesting news of Spain's terrible bond auction yesterday, in which the yield on its 3-month debt more than doubled, from 2.3% to over 5%. That was but an appetizer, however; in an auction of 10-year debt today, Germany failed to place some 40% of the issuance. The lack of appetite for German debt has come as a shock to many, and the language being used to describe matters is increasingly apocalyptic. "It is a complete and utter disaster", Reuters has one strategist saying. On the secondary market, German bond yields have finally joined those of its neighbours on their upward march. The German 10-year yield is up over 7 percentage points today, and back above 2%. It still has a ways to go to catch France and Austria (approaching 4%), Belgium (over 5%), and Spain and Italy (back near 7%).

Trouble at big European banks is growing; the euro-zone banking system is increasingly reliant on the European Central Bank for funding. The prospect of bank failures is a troubling one given the fiscal strain on European sovereigns; no one wants to find itself in Ireland's position, squarely in bond vigilantes' crosshairs having assumed the obligations of sinking banks. Uncontrolled collapses are too awful to contemplate, however, and so the pressure on the ECB will grow. Meanwhile, trouble is growing around the eastern periphery of the euro zone. Poland's zloty is under pressure, and there are signs of bank runs in the Baltics.
Perhaps worst of all, the financial strain in the euro zone is increasingly apparent in the real economy. New data indicate that euro-zone industrial orders plummeted in September, falling 6.4%. Orders dropped 4.4% in Germany, 6.2% in France, and 9.2% in Italy. Predictions that the euro zone will face little more than a shallow recession oin 2012 increasingly seem to be wildly optimistic. That's a scary thought. The impact of a serious euro-zone downturn on the finances of banks and governments, not to mention on the sentiment among voters facing high and rising unemployment, is tough to contemplate.
The rest of the world won't be able to dodge that bullet. New data indicate that China's economy continues to slow, enough to shift the outlook for monetary policy from tightening to easing. As my colleague points out, America faces a series of big fiscal hurdles in coming months. Financial contagion from Europe could quickly turn conditions in China and America from disappointingly soft to dangerously recessionary.

The good news, such as it is, is that the stunning German bond-market failure may shock leaders their into recognising their own great vulnerability and pushing for bold initiatives to slow the crisis. The problem is that matters rapidly seem to be spinning out of the control of fiscally-limited governments. It will take the power of the printing press to stop the panic. But the ECB seems if anything more reluctant to save the situation than the German government. As Martin Wolf quips today, "the ECB risks being remembered by historians as the magnificently orthodox central bank of a failed currency union".
The world can give thanks that a new Depression is not yet upon it. Enjoy the sentiment now, while it lasts.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/11/euro-crisis-17?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/fastertowardtheend
post #86 of 330

Reuters: Awful Italy debt sale heightens eurozone stress.

 

So, contagion then?

post #87 of 330

This German dictated monolithic stubbornness the ECB and the Commission have shown the last couple of years is fucking infuriating. I know that Germans feel like they're asked to shoulder the burdens of those lazy PIIGs but this psychotic refusal to pursue any active counter to this is going to hurt more than it will help.

 

Print some fucking money! Fuck! A few points of inflation are nothing next to a continent wide depression. Holy shit at these people. At this point I don't even care about Greece. We've escaped defaulting so far but the real economy is irrecoverably crashed. But these dogmatic scaredycats will take the entire EU with them. 

post #88 of 330
This week's Economist is fascinating, but fucking scary. They say it's possible the Euro might collapse within weeks if the ECB doesn't act. Or, in reality, the Bundesbank does not let it act.

And I still haven't heard any of the idiots who designed the Eurozone man up and admit they screwed up.

If they don't support Italy, then all bets are off.
post #89 of 330

How much longer can France and Italy control the mess before it all explodes?  Because I head months back that the worst case scenario was to keep prolonging the problems, and that's just what has happened.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-25/europe-s-crisis-creating-contagion-flaherty.html

 

Is it all Belgium's fault?  It's all Belgium's fault, isn't it?

post #90 of 330

Actually it might be Germany's fault. Here's a really interesting article from Stratfor:

 

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20111107-europe-international-system-and-generational-shift

post #91 of 330

Banks Build Contingency for Breakup of the Euro

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/global/banks-fear-breakup-of-the-euro-zone.html?_r=1&hp

 

Prepare for riots in euro collapse, Foreign Office warns

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8917077/Prepare-for-riots-in-euro-collapse-Foreign-Office-warns.html

 

Some serious talk being bandied about for what many said would never happen. Scary times.

post #92 of 330

Where in all of this is any talk of investigating and prosecuting banks?  Why do the people have to bear the brunt of what the banks did while the officials at the banks get to walk between the raindrops?  Goldman Sachs helped Greece hide its debt, among other transgressions by GS and other big banks.  Is that not prosecutable in any way?

post #93 of 330

The Matrix is a system, YT. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

post #94 of 330

So the US Treasury is probably going to print money to bail out the Euro.  Swell. I mean, banks are banks!  Can't have them getting angry now.

post #95 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post

So the US Treasury is probably going to print money to bail out the Euro.  Swell. I mean, banks are banks!  Can't have them getting angry now.



You just made that up.

post #96 of 330

Well here we go.....

 

Germany told to act to save Europe

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d29da7fc-19ee-11e1-b9d7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1f4q4cCeu

 

The eurozone really has only days to avoid collapse

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d9a299a8-1760-11e1-b00e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1f4q4cCeu

 

OECD: euro collapse would have 'highly devastating outcomes' worldwide

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/28/oecd-eurozone-world-economy-warning

 

Is this really at that point? I thought it had more time? Guess not.

 

Perhaps one should look at Iceland.


Edited by Johnny Daywalker - 11/29/11 at 1:59am
post #97 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post



You just made that up.



Not entirely: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/obama-says-u-s-stands-ready-to-do-our-part-for-eurozone-crisis/

 

I think the markets inferred it too.

post #98 of 330

Anyone see any daylight here?

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pressure-mounts-europe-finance-ministers-070945478.html

Europe ramps up rescue fund, may turn to IMF

 

Euro Finance Ministers Discuss Radical Ideas to Avert Global Crisis

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Euro-Finance-Ministers-wscheats-3060132077.html

 

Eurozone ministers OK $10.7 billion Greek loan

http://news.yahoo.com/eurozone-ministers-ok-10-7-billion-greek-loan-185018903.html

 

post #99 of 330

Johnny Daywalker, I don't think so.  I've been reading news and listening to analysis about it and it seems like it's just more austerity downward spiral-ism.  Sure, the markets are "happy" but longterm, the European debt crisis is caused by banks helping governments take risks to make their principals rich(er) but is being "fixed" by taking even more wealth out of the workers of the world, who are not at fault and have no control over the banks' greed orgy. 

 

Is it true that London has essentially shut down due to protests?

post #100 of 330

Its a shame. Looks like London has

 

Two million strike in Britain over pension changes

http://news.yahoo.com/mass-strike-promises-travel-chaos-063900078.html

 

People are gonna have to stand up to the banks or continue to lose big its just that simple. Its happened in Iceland.

 

Get ready America.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › All your euros are belong to Greece.