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All your euros are belong to Greece. - Page 11

post #501 of 513
Originally Posted by Geoff Foster View Post
Am I making myself clear? I'd flesh this out a bit more but I'm pushed for time. 

Well, yes and no (and if you can churn all that out when pushed for time, then I say well done ;)

But the problem is not that secret tomfoolery goes on or not.  It does.  I never have any doubt there's wheels within wheels turning and trying to work every situation for some advantage, or (perhaps more importantly) perceived advantage.  But Russia, half the Middle East, most of South America, slabs of Africa and a few choice places in Asia virtually run on a semi informed myth that the reason their country isn't doing as well as it should is because of US/CIA meddling.  This has been the platform for power of many a dictatorship and totalitarian regime.  That's their 'narrative'.  By your standards this is a more sophisticated narrative than that of the average Westerner.  In most cases it's based somewhat in fact too, if only solidly confirmed decades later.  It doesn't make it any less of an ironic sort of comforting myth.  Something that forgives all kinds of bad behaviour and poor management as well as a strong persecution complex that serves the aforementioned just as well.  But the CIA is a human institution, staffed by people, which does human things to other humans.  In many systems where people are trying to actively oppose these actions too (including the government that gives it its money).  And then it tries to do them without anyone knowing about it.  Those facts alone mean we know its effectiveness is diffuse and limited most of the time. 

That's what my knowledge and experience of people, especially organised into institutions, tells me.


So to me, even a base assumption that "the CIA is involved", as reasonable as that might be given the record, with no detail as to how or what they actually did or are doing, is of little practical use and at worst merely fosters that sort of paranoid mysticism about secret services and geopolitics. Something which I think has genuinely negative consequences.  I expect it is unwitting, but without hard information that's what happens.  As a fallback assumption, even at its most reasonable, it renders knowledge itself on any situation effectively unknowable (yet often posits this as the intellectually superior option.  I'm pretty sure this is not your intent but I'm sure we've all met enough people whose startling clarity of not knowing what's really going on is somehow knowing what's really going on).


Personally I think that's at least one reason simpler narratives hold sway; not because people are too dumb or who never heard of this stuff (although those things play a part).  But because an almost predictive history based set of assumptions like that leaves you with very little besides great lurking behind the scenes forces of unknowable influence and motivation.  Some people love that stuff and can't get enough, of course.  But I think by and large our culture prefers to stick to stuff that is pinned down, or at least seems pinned down (The grandest secret histories and conspiracy theories are enourmously detailed.  None of it, or very little, has any factual basis.  It's the detail that sells it).  So where outright lies and excessive vagaries will still potentially get you into trouble, we have a press and public that likes a good solid angle.  And if Hersh wants to tell us it was all the CIAs doing five years later, well that's fine too.

Edited by Muzman - 7/13/15 at 4:18am
post #502 of 513

There's a thread dedicated for conspiracy theories on these boards, maybe this discussion should happen there? I fail to see this CIA angle as anything more than a derail, especially with so thin arguments relating it to Greece' situation. I'm reminded of this quote by Paul Greengrass. Instead of asking you to contact him, let me post it here. And yes, I was being sarcastic and a bit childish, forgive me:


Originally said by Paul Greengrass:
I have a lot of sympathy for conspiratorial people. What it is is engagement. Its’ a really passionate engagement and curiosity about the world. And it’s a really healthy skepticism about power and who has it and how it’s used. It’s basically asking why, what if, and says who, all of which are fantastically important questions that don’t get asked enough.
But one of the problems with conspiracy theories is that at some point conspiracies are cozy. They are comfort blankets. They say to us you don’t have to really worry about the world because at the end of the day there are a bunch of bad guys with black hats on controlling it all. We’re all being duped. Issues of complexity don’t arise.
But the truth is that doesn’t wash. That isn’t the world we live in.
post #503 of 513

The thing that strikes me about most conspiracy theorists is that they turn everyone into the all-powerful and omnicompetent incompetents around. 


"We can destroy/freely manipulate the economy of anyone we choose at will but can't fix our own!"


"I can engineer a bipartisan, nationwide (if not worldwide) conspiracy from the day of my birth to get myself elected President even though I'm not an American citizen!  And then I'll...uh...get really frustrated with my Congress?"


"We can run our false flag operation against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon to convince the American People to go to war, all so we can tank our economy and I can leave office with a terrible reputation that helps get the Kenyan quoted above elected!"


"We can hide evidence of the Roswell Aliens, JFK's real murderers, and the fake moon landings indefinitely, but can't stop on Army enlisted guy from blowing the lid off a ton of stuff by sending it to Wikileaks!"

post #504 of 513
post #505 of 513

Link no good, or story gone!

post #506 of 513
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Link no good, or story gone!

It was just a click away....



post #507 of 513

Tspiras has called an election. He's now framing himself as a centrist and trying to shed the left wing elements of his party. At least he's honest enough to recognize what he has actually become.


Still, the Greek people tend to have favoured the left in every referendum and election so far. Can't see why this one is going to be any different...

post #508 of 513

It's the final step in transforming Syriza into a social democrat party. And the final realization that the Left is not compatible with ruling a 21st century Western democracy.

post #509 of 513

Stelios. Do you think there is any real danger you'll go far right? Felt like Golden Dawn was neutered a few years back, but people tend to cling to one wing or the other when the chips are down.

post #510 of 513

That's the real danger. The Left failed spectacularly so some of the same idiots may very well swing to the other side. 

post #511 of 513
Thousands of refugees from Syria and Iraq are entering Greece every month. I can see right wing dipshits gaining votes by blaming them for everything, much like what happened in Sweden and here.
post #512 of 513
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post

 I can see right wing dipshits gaining votes by blaming them for everything, much like what happened in Sweden and here.


On the other hand, blaming them for "everything" would be 80% fair.

post #513 of 513

Come again?


Sidenote, I find it pretty hilarious that the nationalist True Finns -party's primary concern is our raging refugee problem. Which, at the time of writing this, consists of roughly 4000 people who are trying to get into a country with a population of five million, of which 350'000 are unemployed. How about starting to get worried about that, assholes?

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