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Show me the dumb kid

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
From now on when people ask me why I study racial-ethnic identity development, I'll direct them to this and this. Yeah, America's post-racial now...
post #2 of 44
Would it be too Asian of me to point out you linked to the same video twice?
post #3 of 44
That's interesting. I've seen studies before which reflect this trend, and it goes beyond race...to weight, occupation, etc etc.

Is there an accompanying article on this experiment? I wonder what type of sampling pool was used.
post #4 of 44
Jesus, that is depressing.

I wouldn't want to stress out too much based on the in the moment response of children, but if this doesn't say all you need to know about the sort of messages we send through culture, then I don't know what it'd take. It broke my heart when they had the girl point out the ugly one.
post #5 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
That's interesting. I've seen studies before which reflect this trend, and it goes beyond race...to weight, occupation, etc etc.

Is there an accompanying article on this experiment? I wonder what type of sampling pool was used.
Yeah, this is disturbing on its face, but it would be helpful to have some context here. Sampling pool, definitely, but also info on who conducted the study, its overall methodology, its purposes, its conclusions. For all we know, these isolated clips aren't representative of the study at all, but are just worst cases (or, heck, even best cases).
post #6 of 44
Thread Starter 
Article

The kids were sampled from NY and Georgia. They only sampled these 8 kids as part of a pilot study. The researchers hope to obtain funding to do a larger study with a more representative sample.

I fixed the second link. It surveyed Black kids, who still had a White bias but less so than the White kids.

ETA: I just wanted to add that there is tons of literature that shows that all people (at least those raised in America) have a White bias*. Adults who have a multicultural ideology can override these learned stereotypes. However, when people are tired, are multi-tasking, or are doing something that can sap their cognitive resources, stereotypes can and will influence one's behavior in subtle ways.

Harvard University has an ongoing project in which they test these implicit stereotypes. Head over HERE to take a demonstration test. They have dozens of them, but for purposes of this thread, take the "Race Test". You'll likely find out you have a White bias, too.
post #7 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
I fixed the second link. It surveyed Black kids, who still had a White bias but less so than the White kids.
They were clearly older though.
post #8 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
They were clearly older though.
Only one girl was older (she had color blocks instead of cartoon kids to point to). Even so, it makes it even more disturbing that the White bias didn't diminish as one gets older.
post #9 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Harvard University has an ongoing project in which they test these implicit stereotypes. Head over HERE to take a demonstration test. They have dozens of them, but for purposes of this thread, take the "Race Test". You'll likely find out you have a White bias, too.
"Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Dark Skin compared to Light Skin."

I'm a reverse racist?
post #10 of 44
Thread Starter 
Cool. For reals, I've seen no preferences, but I've never "met" anyone who had this result.
post #11 of 44
"Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American and European American."
post #12 of 44
I think that test is wack, but -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
"Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American and European American."
- me, too. Justin, you wanna hug or get an ice cream soda or something?

eta - I took it again and, this time, it told me that I have a strong preference for European Americans. I guess I turned into a racist in ten minutes.
post #13 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Only one girl was older (she had color blocks instead of cartoon kids to point to). Even so, it makes it even more disturbing that the White bias didn't diminish as one gets older.
I meant that the black kids looked older.... really they weren't?
post #14 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
I meant that the black kids looked older.... really they weren't?
From the article: "In each school, Spencer tested children from two age groups: 4 to 5 and 9 to 10."

There's more data on the test groups if you follow the Full Doll Study Results link in the article. The clips just happen to show kids from the older test groups of black kids and kids from the younger test groups of white kids. Probably because these just happen to be the most outrageous responses.

That's the problem with CNN and most mainstream news sources when it comes to reporting on anything halfway complex - you get de-contextualized fragments of the most outrageous examples possible.

The test seems relatively legit from what I read of the methodology (although the article warns that it's a pilot study only), but it might be best to retain a little skepticism given the source (CNN) and, especially, how that source is presenting the information (in chopped up bits so that the appropriate amount of emotional resonance is conveyed when it airs on Anderson Cooper's show).
post #15 of 44
You're right. I'm skeptical that society fosters a white bias. It's the methodology that does it!
post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
- me, too. Justin, you wanna hug or get an ice cream soda or something?

eta - I took it again and, this time, it told me that I have a strong preference for European Americans. I guess I turned into a racist in ten minutes.
That ten minutes just screwed you out of an ice cream soda, lady.
post #17 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
That ten minutes just screwed you out of an ice cream soda, lady.
But it's chocolate.

SEE?! Chocolate!!!

stupid test...
post #18 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
You're right. I'm skeptical that society fosters a white bias. It's the methodology that does it!
If the answer's obvious, why conduct a study at all?
post #19 of 44
Because we live in a country where people insist that racism no longer exists. Where there's a massive political movement predicated almost entirely on the fact that the president is black and everybody in that movement pretends like they're not racist.
post #20 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
But it's chocolate.

SEE?! Chocolate!!!

stupid test...
You tryin' to say just because you drink ONE black soda, that means you're not racist?

I think you need more tests.
post #21 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Because we live in a country where people insist that racism no longer exists. Where there's a massive political movement predicated almost entirely on the fact that the president is black and everybody in that movement pretends like they're not racist.
So it would probably behoove the people conducting this study to do so as well as possible so that their results can't be called into question. That's what separates social scientific study from some guy on a message board just saying that we live in a country where people say racism no longer exists. And some people do say that. But how many?

Well, there have been some studies...

With some scientific rigor, we can begin to quantify this stuff. Without, we're just making assumptions, which some Tea Partier can do just as well as you can.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here, aside from implying that I don't believe racism exists because I called a corporate entity's motivation and presentation of the facts into question. If we need this research to counter claims that racism no longer exists, shouldn't we want it to be well-conducted and to tell us something beyond "racism still exists"?
post #22 of 44
I think what bothers me the most in that first video is that the kids always choose an extreme example, never one of the intermediate forms.

I'd like to think that when I was that age and someone said "Show me the dumb kid" I would have replied "ALL OF THEM."
post #23 of 44
Took the test and it said :
Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American.

If I'm honest this kinda surprised me, I always believed that there is an unconscious racial preference in everyone. I say this because there have been studies done with babies that suggests that everyone is born with a preference to stay with those who look like you. Something to do with an evolutionary instinct that is supposed to make you want to stay with your people.

<< Edit>>
Here's the article:
Babies are racist.
post #24 of 44
Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

Wait, that means Im sorta subconciously racist or what?
Guess thats what i get for living in a predominatly white/hispanic country....
post #25 of 44
Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

Am I the only overt racist on Chud?! Seems like you can sway your results pretty easily once you realize how the test works, though.
post #26 of 44
Thread Starter 
I mentioned it was a pilot study earlier in the thread. Hopefully they'll get funding for a more representative study. The examples are definitely extreme, but I don't think that invalidates the preliminary results. The pilot provides evidence that there is a segment of society for whom racial stereotypes influence how they think about themselves and others. Finding out how and when kids learn about these stereotypes may lead to solutions for preventing them from impacting their psyche and is a worthwhile endeavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
I think that test is wack, but -
I do too. I posted it as an example of a line of research interested in finding ways of measuring implicit biases. I don't think they've managed to do it though.

Madeline Heilman at NYU has a great research lab that uses survey methodology to measure subtle gender biases. Unfortunately, her work is bad news for women in that people evaluate women more negatively than men and particularly for women who display non-stereotypical behaviors. And men and women do this to the same degree, so its not like being a woman makes you immune. There are ways to overcome these biases, but it takes work by both individuals and institutions.

There's been progress in both racial and gender equity, but there's still a long ways to go.
post #27 of 44
Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American and European American.

That's funny, because all my friends say I'm the best racist out of all of us.

In all truth, though, the test is kind of ridiculous. But interesting in the way it presents itself.
post #28 of 44
That survey thing is kinda scary. And a bit kind of beside the point, at least for me.
post #29 of 44
Inconclusive to make decision based on data.
It had a couple of paragraphs and more questions following that, but I didn't care to go on.
post #30 of 44
I see what it's going for, but as others have said: that test is horseshit. Not transparent at ALL.
post #31 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon View Post
Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

Am I the only overt racist on Chud?! Seems like you can sway your results pretty easily once you realize how the test works, though.
No. I got the same result. Then the test called me a "honky"!

Also, wasn't there an episode of "King of the Hill" like this?
post #32 of 44
I remember taking that test shortly after finishing Blink. I was not surprised when I showed (from what I remember) a moderate preference for European Americans.

I've always wondered how much conventional color symbolism in western children's stories affect how children react to people of different colored skin.
post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
But it's chocolate.

SEE?! Chocolate!!!

stupid test...
I have friends that are rocky road.


I'm wondering at that age if color (not race, but hue/shade) favoritism or association comes into play. Throw in Elmo red and Barbie pink and then the truth will be revealed.

EDIT: I didn't take the test, but the ad at the top of the page suggests that I date some sexy Asians.
post #34 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I think what bothers me the most in that first video is that the kids always choose an extreme example, never one of the intermediate forms.
I don't find that particularly surprising because, and this is what bothers me about the first video especially, they're pushing the children into giving a specific definitive answer to questions which have none, and when there's only one quality separating all the pictures it kind of makes sense they'd go for one of the two extreme examples of that quality. I'm not saying there's nothing there, but I'm concious that the testers are the ones asking the children to draw associations between these strong terms like 'dumb' and 'ugly' and skin colour, not the children themselves.
post #35 of 44
I think the most important point to draw from this is that young children are obvious to how inherently unequal society remains. CNN's attempt to raise awareness of this issue through a striking headline is sad but heroic, to criticize their choice of words as sensationalistic is to ignore what works in favour of what ought to be.
post #36 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
I don't find that particularly surprising because, and this is what bothers me about the first video especially, they're pushing the children into giving a specific definitive answer to questions which have none, and when there's only one quality separating all the pictures it kind of makes sense they'd go for one of the two extreme examples of that quality. I'm not saying there's nothing there, but I'm concious that the testers are the ones asking the children to draw associations between these strong terms like 'dumb' and 'ugly' and skin colour, not the children themselves.
Yup. They're padding the results by giving only one option for kids to discriminate by. But I think that's also their point. Keeping all else the same, would kids differentiate by skin color? The answer seems to be yes. And when asked why, the kids are providing answers that reflect racial stereotypes. My problem with these kinds of tests is that they may be assessing people's knowledge of the stereotypes out there, but may not reflect personal preference. We only saw one kid say that she'd rather have a different skin color than her own. So I'm not sure how much pointing to an arbitrary picture reflects internal biases. Still, if there is a chance that it does, better to find solutions than ignore the problem.
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian View Post
I think the most important point to draw from this is that young children are obvious to how inherently unequal society remains. CNN's attempt to raise awareness of this issue through a striking headline is sad but heroic, to criticize their choice of words as sensationalistic is to ignore what works in favour of what ought to be.
This is idiotic.
post #38 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
This is idiotic.
This is a holier-than-thou hipster douche.
post #39 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian View Post
This is a holier-than-thou hipster douche.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make your post any less idiotic.

1. The problem isn't the headline, but the overall representation, particularly the selected videos. The actual study is linked, but it's buried.

2. It's not at all clear that the kids are "oblivious" to how unequal society is. In fact, the test might reflect their awareness of it. As Diva wrote: "My problem with these kinds of tests is that they may be assessing people's knowledge of the stereotypes out there, but may not reflect personal preference. We only saw one kid say that she'd rather have a different skin color than her own."

3. You're arguing for sensationalism, which runs counter to ethical reporting. From the Society of Professional Journalists Code of Ethics:

Quote:
— Make certain that headlines, news teases and promotional material, photos, video, audio, graphics, sound bites and quotations do not misrepresent. They should not oversimplify or highlight incidents out of context.

— Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.
"Raising awareness through striking headlines" is what tabloids and Fox News do. Please don't make excuses for them.
post #40 of 44
Hipster Douche...? And prolly white too.
post #41 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
"Raising awareness through striking headlines" is what tabloids and Fox News do. Please don't make excuses for them.
Don't you see, Dave? Flagrantly unprofessional reporting is ok when you're RIGHT!
post #42 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
Don't you see, Dave? Flagrantly unprofessional reporting is ok when you're on the RIGHT!
Fixed.
post #43 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian View Post
This is a holier-than-thou hipster douche.
haha this guy really did this huh
post #44 of 44
On behalf of my fellow Canadians, Louse and Graynadian, I'd like to apologize. Really, we're not all idiots!
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